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Elyv posted:Wat. Meloku has seen sporadic play in Scapeshift lists as a sideboard 1of; I don't assert that those folks have been correct in that choice, but it's not wildly implausible. The more relevant extra land drop might be enough to make the card playable enough. That said RG vs. (1) is a big jump, which I had misremembered. TheKingofSprings posted:Costs 4, doesn't immediately replace itself, doesn't win the game next turn. Booklegger fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 19:54
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This guy and the RG filterland is landfall X, right? This guy, RG filterland, tron, and rings of brighthearth is infinite landfall?
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Dec 7, 2015 19:58
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Balon posted:This guy and the RG filterland is landfall X, right? Only 1 extra land drop, not multiple.
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Dec 7, 2015 19:59
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Booklegger posted:Only 1 extra land drop, not multiple. Oh haha right. This guys trash.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:09
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Sickening posted:Fetches and duals are fine. The problem is there not being a valid way to punish it. The "feel bads" is hurting good game design atm. What could punish it that would be good but not aggressively good? Tec Edge and Enroaching Wastes are about it.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:10
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:What could punish it that would be good but not aggressively good? Tec Edge and Enroaching Wastes are about it. tunnel ignus  honestly I think getting rid of fetches altogether wouldn't be that bad a thing with regards to slow play, etc, but like, collectors and entrenchment or whatever.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:12
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Zoness posted:inb4 tournament reports / feature matches of people tapping typed basics for diamonds v It's not completely inconceivable to me that they would, instead of making Wastes a card with a discreet and exceptional ability, just make its mechanic an emergent property, by authoring a rule to permit Basic Lands of every variety tap for colorless. I think it would be good. Basic lands would all be soft duals, which puts the elementary balancing point just the tiniest bit higher, which means that there's a little bit more to trade away when you select a nonbasic. Every fetchable (aside from Dryad Arbor) would be a choice for a package of two colors. Do you want Sacred Foundry for R and W, or a Mountain for R and ♦? With enough ♦ cards to make that into a real and considerable choice, you end up with playspace that is accessible to modest mana-bases but which four-color goodstuff decks have some real trouble reaching for. This prediction has some flaws, of course. If the other basic lands do what Wastes do, why then have Wastes at all? Well, it solves an EDH problem with colorless commanders, so that's a big-picture upside. In the block itself, there's no limit of quasi-parasitic mechanics they could print to make it more immediately worthwhile. Like, what if you had a reverse-domain ability that did better if you had fewer basic land types? It would certainly be a counterpoint to the ridiculous standard manabase for a few months until the fetches rotate. I don't know.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:13
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Hope they print a Mishra's Wasteshop, that taps for ♦♦♦ and can only be spent to cast colourless spells.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:18
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That is a really bad idea because it makes basics I.E the simplest cards in existence twice as complicated if not moreso and it'll make the game a shitload harder for a new player.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:20
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Zoness posted:tunnel ignus At least that was a learning experience for hate cards for last fall's mechanic, since Stony Silence, Ash Zealot, Rest in Peace, Soldier of the Parthenon, and End Hostilities were all good. BFZ doesn't have any blatant "gently caress you wedges/dragons!" cards, but since "gently caress you wedges!" is kinda hard to do and "gently caress you dragons!" was already in DTK itself I guess they didn't feel the need.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:21
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:At least that was a learning experience for hate cards for last fall's mechanic, since Stony Silence, Ash Zealot, Rest in Peace, Soldier of the Parthenon, and End Hostilities were all good. There's basically no way to hate on wedges that won't cause the dreaded "  feel-bads"
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Dec 7, 2015 20:26
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MiddleEastBeast posted:Hope they print a Mishra's Wasteshop, that taps for ♦♦♦ and can only be spent to cast colourless spells. Hell ya this would go well with the workshop in my EDH deck.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:26
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MiddleEastBeast posted:Hope they print a Mishra's Wasteshop, that taps for ♦♦♦ and can only be spent to cast colourless spells. I hope so. I'm so tired of Ancient Tomb. Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:since "gently caress you wedges!" is kinda hard to do Non-basic hate does it just fine but Wizards doesn't like people interacting with each other outside of combat so here we are.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:30
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suicidesteve posted:I hope so. I'm so tired of Ancient Tomb. Nonbasic hate any more aggressive than Tec Edge is also contrary to BFZ's own mechanics, but sure.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:37
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mcmagic posted:Picking up/Playing Extra lands is always going to be abusable. So yes, i agree. IDK if Scapeshift is where it fits though. Are there many decks in Modern that care about repeated land drops besides Scapeshift? I could maybe see utility cases where you tap a land, bounce it, then replay and tap that land again for some extra mana (especially with something like a Tron land) but that doesn't seem worth the effort. I can't think of many Modern playables with Landfall, and while Amulet Bloom likes to drop lands into play it has its own weird specific goal without much wiggle room.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:39
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TheKingofSprings posted:There's basically no way to hate on wedges that won't cause the dreaded " Hasn't wedge already been hated on because all the rogue squadron books/games are no longer canon  Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:At least that was a learning experience for hate cards for last fall's mechanic, since Stony Silence, Ash Zealot, Rest in Peace, Soldier of the Parthenon, and End Hostilities were all good. haha parthenon to be honest self-inflicted wound, rending volley, and surge of righteousness all seem like indirectly hose wedges by being more likely to hit multicolored spells. it just so happens that a lot of that cycle isn't great at hitting rhinos. also i don't think wotc is keen on hitting gold cards as a thing b/c gold is considered a drawback in "design" but like then they make mana bases really good so v  v but it's probably not a design problem.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:44
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Nonbasic hate any more aggressive than Tec Edge is also contrary to BFZ's own mechanics, but sure. Tec Edge would be fine when so many decks are running infinite fetches and like one of each Bofa.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:45
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:What could punish it that would be good but not aggressively good? Tec Edge and Enroaching Wastes are about it. Ghost quarter? Although it would seem that it wouldn't even be good considering the chance of it locking someone out of a color would be slim. My choice would be fulminator mage, but at this point even the the decks you would hope to punish it with would run their own. Its definitely a hard question to answer, but its kind of a pointless considering oath and sets after it are already set in stone. I just want power level to swing back in the other direction for a little bit. Little tired of almost all the staples being poo poo they printed years ago.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:49
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suicidesteve posted:Tec Edge would be fine when so many decks are running infinite fetches and like one of each Bofa. They're going to reprint Ghost Quarter in Shadows.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:49
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AlternateNu posted:They're going to reprint Ghost Quarter in Shadows. Which won't do very much, everyone has ~4 basics in their deck anyways. E: Ghost Quarter is mainly for getting rid of special lands that are really problematic unless dealt with, it's not impossible to disrupt people's with it but it's not easy and often not possible. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 21:00
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reprint Stifle imoDAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Well, it's also a 4/4 body, and if you're treating it as Exploration it "draws" you a card every turn. Add to that lands with ETB effects and the fact that if the land you bounce comes in untapped it only costs 1 to activate, and you have a pretty good card. Not sure if RG landfall is really a good enough deck that this card will be a Standard powerhouse, but in that deck it is very good. Also it is definitely not modern playable.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:01
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TheKingofSprings posted:That is a really bad idea because it makes basics I.E the simplest cards in existence twice as complicated if not moreso and it'll make the game a shitload harder for a new player. lol no it won't The speculation on ♦ has been such a treat because it's really airing out how many players don't know how they learned their own game, but who nonetheless can't imagine any other way to do so. Under the circumstances I articulated, the full story on ♦ would be hidden behind the same second- and third-layer veils of game complexity that the majority of the entire rest of the game is. The same place keywords live. The same place +1/+1 counters are. The same place mulligans go. When a novice player walks into the store, you hand them a 30-card sample deck and set up a game in which is it is 0% necessary for a player to know anything at all about ♦. You tell them, "These are the basic lands, each one can tap for one of the five colors" and, while that's a non-exhaustive statement, it is also a factual one, and in any case, all the land cards have big pictographics on them instead of text boxes and in the congealing understanding of a neophyte they are an abstract concept rather than a semantic value. It's only after you've lain down the foundation that the player gets their hands on real cards and, yes, some fraction of them are going to say puzzling poo poo on them. Like "equip." What the gently caress does equip mean? Better check that poo poo out in the rulebook. Counter a spell? How does that work, do you just undo all of its effects? Oh, no, the rulebook says there's this thing called the "stack" and that effects go there for a while before they take effect. One of my cards has a ♦ on it, what does that mean? Oh, the rulebook says that just means colorless mana, oh, and basic lands can tap for it, too! I didn't know that, but that will be useful. In the worst case scenario, the player does not experience a structured explanation of the game, and ends up learning what a diamond means but only believes that they can use certain weird utility lands and stuff (which is to say, the lands that specifically only tap for ♦) to play them. That's STILL fine! Because he's not playing the game wrong, he just doesn't know about all his options, so he thinks that Kozilik is a disproportionately difficult card to play. Somebody will fill in that gap in his knowledge later.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:02
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Sickening posted:Fetches and duals are fine. The problem is there not being a valid way to punish it. The "feel bads" is hurting good game design atm. The biggest problem with Bofas with fetches is that Bofas get better as the game progresses. Shocks at the very least always cost 2 life to come into play untapped. TheKingofSprings posted:That is a really bad idea because it makes basics I.E the simplest cards in existence twice as complicated if not moreso and it'll make the game a shitload harder for a new player. It also completely loving defeats the point of distinguishing colorless mana in any way so there's that. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 21:06
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Lancelot posted:reprint Stifle imo i always liked that split second stifle from time spiral but since referencing the stack is verboten it will never be reprinted
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Dec 7, 2015 21:09
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Angry Grimace posted:The biggest problem with Bofas with fetches is that Bofas get better as the game progresses. Shocks at the very least always cost 2 life to come into play untapped. Well, they are also worse on average in the early game which in theory was suppose to balance them out. The problem is that there isn't anything aggressive enough to make coming into play tapped a problem. And jesus christ, ♦ was probably a waste of time to print but is going to have near to no affect on making anything more complicated.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:16
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Eikre posted:lol no it won't A more reasonable counter-argument: The best reason to use Colorless mana as an evergreen mechanic is to make it more difficult to cast certain spells using a mana base consisting of Fetches (which cannot fetch a colorless-producing land) alongside Basics and Duals/Shocks (which do not have the ability to produce colorless mana). Allowing all basics to produce colorless mana turns them into de facto dual lands for players trying to cast a spell that costs {C}{U}{U} in their Blue/Black deck, an (almost certainly) unwanted net gain in the power of Fetchlands.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:16
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Sickening posted:Well, they are also worse on average in the early game which in theory was suppose to balance them out. The problem is that there isn't anything aggressive enough to make coming into play tapped a problem. didn't aggro decks take the first 2 slots at kobe.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:18
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MiddleEastBeast posted:Hope they print a Mishra's Wasteshop, that taps for ♦♦♦ and can only be spent to cast colourless spells. artifacts are colorless. This would be better than Mishra's Workshop. A land that tapped for 3 that you could use in vintage shops decks, legacy MUD, modern affinity and Tron. Unless you mean spells as in instants and sorceries, not spells in general.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:21
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jassi007 posted:artifacts are colorless. This would be better than Mishra's Workshop. Unless you mean spells as in instants and sorceries, not spells in general. not vintage all star slash panther (not actually a vintage all star)!
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Dec 7, 2015 21:22
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Balon posted:Oh haha right. This guys trash.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:25
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Eikre posted:Oh, the rulebook says that just means colorless mana, oh, and basic lands can tap for it, too! I didn't know that, but that will be useful. It also makes Wastes existing a stupid prospect. "Here's a basic land. Lol syke its strictly worse than all the others you garbage turd idiot."
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Dec 7, 2015 21:38
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Balon posted:Oh haha right. This guys trash. He's a 4/4 for 4 that lets you explore. That alone passes the Vanilla test..
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Dec 7, 2015 22:29
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:It also makes Wastes existing a stupid prospect. "Here's a basic land. Lol syke its strictly worse than all the others you garbage turd idiot." Barry's Land has been a stupid vanity project since its conception just to do because they can, but I'd argue that they found a good reason for it to exist, which is a basic land for EDH. mcmagic posted:He's a 4/4 for 4 that lets you explore. That alone passes the Vanilla test.. I'm struggling to think of the deck that wants this.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:31
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mcmagic posted:He's a 4/4 for 4 that lets you explore. That alone passes the Vanilla test.. Non-evasive 4/4 for 2RG doesn't seem particularly constructed playable unless it has RG bloodrush: +4/+4 and trample.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:34
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4/4 for 4 is lovely until Khans rotates out. Could be good after that though.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:34
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It's actually a really cool card in an RG landfall deck. If you still have lands in your hand it lets you trigger landfall an additional time and ramp. If you've run out of lands in your hand it lets you trigger landfall twice and gives you evasion for effectively 2 mana.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:34
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Angry Grimace posted:Barry's Land has been a stupid vanity project since its conception just to do because they can, but I'd argue that they found a good reason for it to exist, which is a basic land for EDH. RG Landfall is already playing Thunderbreak Regent. This fits the deck better in that it does something the turn in comes into play... It's better flood insurance too.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:37
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I think the card has potential but it's not because it's a 4/4 for 4. If anything that rate is a huge drawback considering that abzan gets a 4/4 for 3 and a 4/5 for 4.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:39
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mcmagic posted:He's a 4/4 for 4 that lets you explore. That alone passes the Vanilla test.. If you have 2 lands in your hand at turn 4 youve flooded. Rav and Theros both had 4/4 for 4 with upsides and only 1 of those saw some minor standard constructed play.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:51
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Zoness posted:not vintage all star slash panther (not actually a vintage all star)! Sure you could Slash panther is 3R so you can tap nu-shops to pay the 3 of anything and 2 life to pay phyrexian red.
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Dec 7, 2015 23:13
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