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I like both games
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Dec 7, 2015 18:02
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I've never played a Hotline Miami game but I have a quick question: why does this thread suck so hard? Please stop posting like morons. Thank you.
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Dec 7, 2015 19:49
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FactsAreUseless posted:I've never played a Hotline Miami game but I have a quick question: why does this thread suck so hard? Some people really hated this game while some people really liked it.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:15
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I played the first again recently, and tried the second one again afterwards. I guess I was just looking too much to the first to want to enjoy 2. When playing HM1, I would stand outside of a room, and start thinking "okay, I'll knock the roamer with the door, swat the guy on the couch, throw the bat at the far guy, and finish off with two executions. It felt like John Wayne Gacy's Rainbow Six. I liked the mix of action and strategy, and I felt that 99% of my deaths were because of mistakes on my own part. There were also things like the fat guys and dogs that encouraged better weapon planning and strategy, and choosing different masks so that you could tackle the game in different ways. In HM2, the majority of it is luring enemies around corners, or various degrees of sniping with the zoom key (something that not a lot of people who finished HM1 even knew was a feature in that game). I'd finish maps, and notice that most levels ended up with 1-3 massive piles as opposed to the even greasing of the rooms I caused in 1 (the restaurant level with the initial ~7 gangster charge at the beginning being the biggest example in my mind). Maybe folks actually prefer things that way and that's fine if it's your taste. It's perfectly acceptable if that's your preference, but you can't deny the playstyles of both games are very different. I'm more curious to hear from the developers about it so I can at least know what caused the sudden change in gameplay styles. So when we're talking about "improving" level design, we're talking about how to bring back the design of HM1 for those who preferred it, because that was the attraction for a lot of us. Stuff like creating a map where a single gunshot doesn't pull in half the level. Cut out a few windows to allow for movement and planning, add a few more doors to bring in that psychotic strategy. Bring in mask selection, so Brandon and Oscar can be strategic counters to some of the huge, open maps.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:23
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FactsAreUseless posted:I've never played a Hotline Miami game but I have a quick question: why does this thread suck so hard? Because people can't just vote one and move on.
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Dec 7, 2015 20:45
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Plan Z posted:In HM2, the majority of it is luring enemies around corners, or various degrees of sniping with the zoom key (something that not a lot of people who finished HM1 even knew was a feature in that game). I'd finish maps, and notice that most levels ended up with 1-3 massive piles as opposed to the even greasing of the rooms I caused in 1 (the restaurant level with the initial ~7 gangster charge at the beginning being the biggest example in my mind). I mentioned that before. Once you get the hang out of the game, you don't need to cover and chicken and play super passive. You can and will breeze out ALL Normal Levels and that, mixed with the beautiful soundtrack and sometimes charming story, is a Great Experience. Just check the video I posted, I used to cover and chicken on that level but then you can breeze it, I don't even do the pauses you see on that video anymore. HLM1 was also very good but once you replay it, it becomes way too trivial.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:04
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It's worth checking out some of the Really Good Player videos on Youtube. Some of the stuff people pull off as Corey/Bodyguard Son is nuts.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:10
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turboraton posted:I mentioned that before. Once you get the hang out of the game, you don't need to cover and chicken and play super passive. You can and will breeze out ALL Normal Levels and that, mixed with the beautiful soundtrack and sometimes charming story, is a Great Experience. Just check the video I posted, I used to cover and chicken on that level but then you can breeze it, I don't even do the pauses you see on that video anymore. The solution to bad level design? git gud.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:10
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Skyscraper posted:The solution to bad level design? git gud. I agree that not being able to see guys is bad level design, but I'm not sure if the rest of it is. If you only needed to use one strategy to beat the entire game, isn't THAT bad level design? The story and glitches I'm still down about but having played the game over a few times I think it's a bit knee jerk-y to immediately dismiss everything hard as bad. The first game had a bit of a reputation as being hard when it came out, and I think the devs wanted to keep with that for the second game. As a result they had to do some things to make it harder. Obviously it didn't all work out but the first game had some bad floors in it too. Though I'll admit biggest example of a 'bad floor' is the one huge room in Hot and Heavy that's full of glass and basically straight out of Hotline Miami 2.  Regardless, think back. You probably played Hotline Miami 1 pretty carefully at first before you got better at it. It's also worth pointing out that part of the bad level design wasn't just a "screw you" to players, but the fact that the devs wanted to make the levels look like actual buildings people might be in. They point to Full House (I believe) from the first game where the second floor opens into a bathroom as an example of the level design they wanted to move away from. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 21:12
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Skyscraper posted:The solution to bad level design? git gud. The thing, ALL of us started playing the game covering, ducking and sniping because we were scared. I did it at first and it wasn't a fun experience at all. Decided to play it like a Super Meat Boy game and just try it and try it and try it till I got it right and I had a pretty good time, a fantastic time if you asked me because you discover new routes and it blends so nice with the gorgeous ost. I know the game isn't for everyone but the amount of people just dismissing it is ridiculous. At least you have the Richter levels in HLM2 and soon the Hotline Miami Editor so you can play HLM1.5 and enjoy it.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:14
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Sykic posted:
turboraton posted:I mentioned that before. Once you get the hang out of the game, you don't need to cover and chicken and play super passive. You can and will breeze out ALL Normal Levels and that, mixed with the beautiful soundtrack and sometimes charming story, is a Great Experience. Just check the video I posted, I used to cover and chicken on that level but then you can breeze it, I don't even do the pauses you see on that video anymore. This would be true if enemy behavior was remotely deterministic. The Mark combo video posted awhile back is a classic example of this, because two thirds of the time someone will wander to the end of the long glass hallway and pop you while you're walking down it.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:23
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Skyscraper posted:The solution to bad level design? git gud.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:33
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Discendo Vox posted:This would be true if enemy behavior was remotely deterministic. The Mark combo video posted awhile back is a classic example of this, because two thirds of the time someone will wander to the end of the long glass hallway and pop you while you're walking down it. I remember you posted exactly the same thing when I posted the video a while back ago. Then I countered with booting up the game and making a video on the Beard level, then you said lol flamethrower and I had to do yet another video. I guess you just hate the game and I love it, let's leave it at that.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:48
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turboraton posted:I mentioned that before. Once you get the hang out of the game, you don't need to cover and chicken and play super passive. You can and will breeze out ALL Normal Levels and that, mixed with the beautiful soundtrack and sometimes charming story, is a Great Experience. Just check the video I posted, I used to cover and chicken on that level but then you can breeze it, I don't even do the pauses you see on that video anymore. I don't have a beef with every HM2 map. Some of the Death Wish maps in particular were among the better ones. I'm just saying the gameplay style is very different, and that diminished my personal enjoyment of it. If you like it, cool, but having a discussion isn't the worst thing. I just notice even on very aggressive runs of the game, it mostly just boils down to lawnmowing in choke points. I remember people making the same criticism of the Hot and Heavy chapter of HM1 And not to sound combative, but of course a game will be easier on subsequent playthroughs. I can sit down and beat Doom 2 on a weekend afternoon. Doesn't mean I didn't spend an exhaustive amount of time trying to figure it all out when I was younger. Though the map design beta does have me interested. HM fans have been shown to be a creative bunch when they put their minds to it, so I'm curious to see what they can do.
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Dec 7, 2015 21:51
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Anatharon posted:I agree that not being able to see guys is bad level design, but I'm not sure if the rest of it is. Anatharon posted:It's also worth pointing out that part of the bad level design wasn't just a "screw you" to players, but the fact that the devs wanted to make the levels look like actual buildings people might be in. They point to Full House (I believe) from the first game where the second floor opens into a bathroom as an example of the level design they wanted to move away from. I kid, I kid.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:09
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Skyscraper posted:Isn't that enough? My main complaint about HLM2's gameplay was its ridiculous focus on offscreen shooting. Honestly I can only think of a few screens like that. It completely grinds things to a halt so it's fair to say it's bad because of that though, yeah. Discendo Vox posted:This would be true if enemy behavior was remotely deterministic. The Mark combo video posted awhile back is a classic example of this, because two thirds of the time someone will wander to the end of the long glass hallway and pop you while you're walking down it. Just having A+ on every hardly makes you 'gud'. 
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Dec 8, 2015 02:21
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If you had read the Payday 2 thread you would know that Vox is infallible in every way. 
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Dec 8, 2015 04:08
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FactsAreUseless posted:I've never played a Hotline Miami game but I have a quick question: why does this thread suck so hard?
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Dec 8, 2015 04:12
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The first couple screens of Casualties is some bullshit but Trauma is my least favorite level from either game so.turboraton posted:Once you get the hang out of the game, you don't need to cover and chicken and play super passive. Yeah it's a little tougher than 1 but I had a much less frustrating time when I got a couple levels in and started doing organically strung together combos while constantly moving as opposed to hiding behind corners (which also works in 1 anyway). I'm not even good, it's just a different mentality (and yes involves a lot of Pressing R but I think that was intended in both games).
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Dec 8, 2015 05:43
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Tulip posted:The first couple screens of Casualties is some bullshit but Trauma is my least favorite level from either game so. My man. Hotline Miami 2 is literally pressing R while bouncing to the badass soundtrack. I wish there was more achievements because I have them all but one and gently caress it i'm not grinding the last one (kill 50 000 dudes). Imma replay it right now tho because typing so much about a game makes me wanna play it.
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Dec 8, 2015 05:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Offscreen kills suck but a lot of the other complaints do seem to amount to "the game is sometimes actually challenging". That's not accurate either because the fact that the levels are so huge doesn't just mean cheap offscreen deaths, but also the fact that checkpoints are few and far between, and suddenly dying has a MASSIVE punishment attached to it opposed to what it had in HM1. So the level design actively encourages peeking out behind corners and taking potshots and generally just taking forever and playing it safe as opposed to this whirlwind dervish of combos that HM2's supporters claim the game is all about. turboraton posted:Once you get the hang of the game you can beat ALL levels of Normal without being scared (firing and forgetting) How in the good lord's name could you attempt to spin "you will often die from a hazard you cannot anticipate" as a good thing?
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Dec 8, 2015 08:15
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Pirate Jet posted:How in the good lord's name could you attempt to spin "you will often die from a hazard you cannot anticipate" as a good thing?
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Dec 8, 2015 16:03
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God forbid games requiring you to adapt to certain situations
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Dec 8, 2015 17:29
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Pirate Jet posted:How in the good lord's name could you attempt to spin "you will often die from a hazard you cannot anticipate" as a good thing? Like I said, stuff that's outside of zoom range is just dumb, but being fair there's not THAT many examples of it. Yeah it's fair to say one is too many but it's not like it's all over the game. The ones I can think of at least are: Third screen of Into The Pit One hallway in Mark as well as one in Alex and Ash's floor of Death Wish (though the hall can be avoided for both) Outdoor area of Casualties One screen in Blood Money One screen in Caught One screen in Takeover The first big room in The Abyss. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 18:08
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Anatharon posted:Like I said, stuff that's outside of zoom range is just dumb, but being fair there's not THAT many examples of it. Yeah it's fair to say one is too many but it's not like it's all over the game. There are a couple in HLM1 as well, Crackdown and Fun&Games that I can think of.
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Dec 8, 2015 18:11
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Oh right, I forgot pretty much all of Seizure. Seizure sucks.Tulip posted:There are a couple in HLM1 as well, Crackdown and Fun&Games that I can think of. The top right (I think) room of Hot and Heavy feels transplanted from the worst parts of Hotline Miami 2. Vengeance's second floor (with the monster truck) has it too. I mean it's never a good thing, but I think it's unfair to focus on "enemies keep killing you from offscreen!" as a huge part of the game's flaws when it's usually something you can avoid. All of the big areas in No Mercy can be avoided with a bit of planning.
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Dec 8, 2015 18:13
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Ledgy posted:God forbid games requiring you to adapt to certain situations One of my favorite new tactics introduced in Good Game Hotline Miami 2 was to take an automatic weapon or shotgun and fire it across the map at enemies I knew in advance were over there, and then watching my combo go up. Also Ash and Alex are so loving fun that any minor complaints I may have had about HM2 were irrelevant. Here's to making tons of fun maps starring the Fans.
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Dec 8, 2015 18:16
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King Vidiot posted:One of my favorite new tactics introduced in Good Game Hotline Miami 2 was to take an automatic weapon or shotgun and fire it across the map at enemies I knew in advance were over there, and then watching my combo go up. Also Ash and Alex are so loving fun that any minor complaints I may have had about HM2 were irrelevant. Here's to making tons of fun maps starring the Fans. The fact that The Fans are killed off less than half way through the game despite having the only really cool new power is downright criminal. Story/bug issues aside my biggest complaint of HLM2 is definetely how few new powers there were. I was really excited when they first started previewing what The Fans could do. But then lethal fists gets reused THREE TIMES. Jake's Irving mask nail gun is basically Richter's power from the first game so Richter in this game doesn't even get one. 
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Dec 8, 2015 18:18
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Oh, how could I forget about Jake's Nunchaku Fat-Fu Rage ability? That'll be fun to make map layouts for 
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Dec 8, 2015 18:29
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Anatharon posted:The fact that The Fans are killed off less than half way through the game despite having the only really cool new power is downright criminal. gently caress the Fans for taking out the Henchman like they did. Pirate Jet posted:
That's the thing, I don't often die from it. I KNOW there is someone in that area so I fire a shotgun/uzi clip where a guy is supposed to be. Anatharon mentioned some levels where it IS more dickish that Combo Extension© so you don't get to max combo the floor, you just go home with your A+. I decided to stream and test goon's levels when editor comes out. I am peruvian so my internet is ULTRA poo poo but I decided to give twitch a try and turns out it works at 240p, I am rusty as gently caress but I think my point is valid (skip to minute 13) http://www.twitch.tv/turboraton/v/28859739 . Literally all my deaths were to bouncing my head, right clicking to the sound of the music or dying on purpouse to listen the rest of the great track. As soon as I fire on the corners to make the Badly Designed Off-Screen Enemies© come to me it's gg, I didn't even make it to the cool synth part! turboraton fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 19:01
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turboraton posted:gently caress the Fans for taking out the Henchman like they did. I approve of their staunch anti-drug stance!!!
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Dec 8, 2015 19:05
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turboraton posted:gently caress the Fans for taking out the Henchman like they did.  Remember, kids.
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Dec 8, 2015 19:45
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Jehde posted:Hotline Miami 2 is an improvement over the original in every way, including level design and gameplay. 
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Dec 8, 2015 19:50
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turboraton posted:gently caress the Fans for taking out the Henchman like they did. Best part of the level editor to me? More Henchmen levels. That was a great level and it's sad he only had one. Imagine for a moment someone does a whole campaign of The Son having him run errands.
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Dec 9, 2015 00:52
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Yeah, I don't get why the Henchman and Jake had such brief, few levels. I feel like Jake should have gotten one more level to test out Dallas, henchman should have had many more levels. Hell, I feel like he should have had as much time being in the game as Evan had. Fake edit: Wow, I just remembered that the Pig Butcher exists. Remember when they made him out to be much more than he ended up being? Or was that just the controversy I'm remembering.
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Dec 9, 2015 03:40
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King Vidiot posted:One of my favorite new tactics introduced in Good Game Hotline Miami 2 was to take an automatic weapon or shotgun and fire it across the map at enemies I knew in advance were over there, and then watching my combo go up. Yeah, I agree Clean Hit and Hot&Heavy were pretty frustrating Oh wait
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Dec 9, 2015 08:23
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BillmasterCozb posted:Fake edit: Wow, I just remembered that the Pig Butcher exists. Remember when they made him out to be much more than he ended up being? Or was that just the controversy I'm remembering. Combination of the controversy and also pig butcher was the main character for hotline miami 1 prototypes, so a lot of people assumed he'd be important in 2. It might be childish, but I do like how the game defied almost every expectation people had for it, for better and worse.
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Dec 9, 2015 08:26
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Didnt Dennaton also say he was supposed to have a much more lasting role in the story at one point ? Too bad he's so bland gameplay wise.
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Dec 9, 2015 08:33
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Also I really like the Henchman's stage but there's nothing about it that requires the Henchman there to make it a good stage, except for doing the achievement where you clear the first room with only your silenced pistol.
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Dec 9, 2015 08:37
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Geight posted:It might be childish, but I do like how the game defied almost every expectation people had for it, for better and worse. I mean, in theory this is a funny idea, but in practice it's a good way to get most of the playerbase to dislike the game. All I wanted was a payoff, and the only thing I got was a PAYDAY FELLAS from Blood Money. Because that's what I was thinking through the entire level
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Dec 9, 2015 15:51
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