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Loomer posted:Which was the junkie faction? I don't quite recall. You know, it took me a bit to remember where the hell I was pulling this from, and it turns out it's from the original Changeling, where it describes Autumn People as basically as either two types: passive addicts (not necessarily of drugs, but harmfully addicted) and authoritarian dream haters who hate dreams because uh reasons. Autumn People itself turned them into more "suits and jerks", for those seeking the challenge of confronting a baddie who's just a salaryman worn down by the 9 to 5. Though I can't help but think of comparisons between Beast and it's delight in harming people over mild transgressions and the delight changelings show in Autumn People for tormenting people for mild transgressions. unseenlibrarian posted:Man, Kithbook Satyr wasn't the bad one. At least not compared to KB: Pooka. I could definitely be mixing up the furry kiths. Satyr did have some dodgy merits, and also had a flaw called "Swarthy" (mainly because they didn't seemingly know what swarthy means...).
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Dec 11, 2015 06:59
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You see that guy over there? He works 60 hours a week to feed, clothe, and shelter his family. What an rear end in a top hat!
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Dec 11, 2015 07:17
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Alien Rope Burn posted:You know, it took me a bit to remember where the hell I was pulling this from, and it turns out it's from the original Changeling, where it describes Autumn People as basically as either two types: passive addicts (not necessarily of drugs, but harmfully addicted) and authoritarian dream haters who hate dreams because uh reasons. Autumn People itself turned them into more "suits and jerks", for those seeking the challenge of confronting a baddie who's just a salaryman worn down by the 9 to 5. Though I can't help but think of comparisons between Beast and it's delight in harming people over mild transgressions and the delight changelings show in Autumn People for tormenting people for mild transgressions. I was going to go read the text to see what it had to say about Autumn People, but then i noticed they haven't posted the full text yet. Are they still feeling burned off of the Beast backlash? If C20 is just as bad I don't see this strategy working out for them. Pope Guilty posted:You see that guy over there? He works 60 hours a week to feed, clothe, and shelter his family. What an rear end in a top hat! You know those comics that get tossed around on social media about how if you aren't pursuing your childhood dreams and creating art you are dead inside? Changeling is a game where that is true, and yes it can be very infuriating to read.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:20
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And that other guy, that psychiatrist who's studying an unusual form of schizophrenia that, uncharacteristically of schizophrenia, fades with age and responds well to treatment. Who does he think he is, other than history's greatest monster?Kurieg posted:You know those comics that get tossed around on social media about how if you aren't pursuing your childhood dreams and creating art you are dead inside? Changeling is a game where that is true, and yes it can be very infuriating to read. Oh god, totally. Changeling: the Dreaming is the Zen Pencils RPG, and gently caress Zen Pencils.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:21
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You know what else was real bad? The Changeling section of Blood-Dimmed Tides. gently caress merfolk forever.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:24
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Kurieg posted:If C20 is just as bad I don't see this strategy working out for them. The difference is that Changeling: the Dreaming has hardcore fans that could give two shits about what the game has as long as they can play their favorite flavor again. They could print a napkin that said "Changeling: the Dreaming" that folded out into some reused Diterlizzi art and it'd sell. I've probably mentioned this before but I tried to sell off all my old World of Darkness books this year.. Changeling sold. Entirely. Even the GM screen. Even the CCG. You know what didn't sell? Wraith 2e. I had Shadow Court and Charnel Houses of Europe around the same price. I still own Charnel Houses of Europe. On a more positive note, it earned me the money to collect most of Changeling: the Lost, so there's that. Mors Rattus posted:You know what else was real bad? The Changeling section of Blood-Dimmed Tides. What, you weren't charmed by its blatant lactation fetish?
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Dec 11, 2015 07:34
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Why would you want to get rid of Charnel Houses, comma, the single best oWoD book? I mean that unironically.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:37
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I dunno, the thing where Technomancers kept running across depth-crushed people who used to be mer and couldn't figure out wtf was amusing.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:38
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Mors Rattus posted:Why would you want to get rid of Charnel Houses, comma, the single best oWoD book? I mean that unironically. I was just scorched-earthing the whole line, I just don't see a future where I'd want to run any of the oWoD games.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:45
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Peztopiary posted:I dunno, the thing where Technomancers kept running across depth-crushed people who used to be mer and couldn't figure out wtf was amusing. Oh yeah, the part where Sealab 2020 was accidentally committing merfolk genocide was great.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:46
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh yeah, the part where Sealab 2020 was accidentally committing merfolk genocide was great. Please explain this, and I guess whatever lactation thing the book had going on cause that sounds horrific.
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Dec 11, 2015 07:50
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Mermaid breast milk gives water breathing if you drink it. They apparently milk themselves regularly; it was a four-dot Treasure. Also they lactate all the time. Merfolk also love casual sex, and have it all the time, but hate kissing unless it's someone they love. Kissing is intimate, sex isn't, see. :BRUCATO: However, due to a joint Technocrat/Pentex team exploring the ocean floor and doing science enthusiastically - and, in fact, the Technocrat part of the team was just generally nice guy Void Engineers who loved oceanography, marine biology and learning new things - the merfolk were all dying out of banality. Because a secret ultratech undersea research base is the most Banal thing ever. They were genociding the merfolk without ever knowing the merfolk existed.
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Dec 11, 2015 08:03
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Wyrm stuff is always treated as super banal because destruction leads to stasis, or something? It didn't make any goddamn sense.
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Dec 11, 2015 08:08
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Pope Guilty posted:Oh god, totally. Changeling: the Dreaming is the Zen Pencils RPG, and gently caress Zen Pencils. Ah, but can we save Changeling by making it instead into Dril Pencils?
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Dec 11, 2015 08:12
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God drat. I've never written a Changeling villain but the next chapter may be about a manic pixie girl who is so obviously Fae that no one suspects it.
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Dec 11, 2015 08:13
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Keep in mind that oChangeling is the bad one; nChangeling is one of the best lines.
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Dec 11, 2015 08:15
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Mors Rattus posted:Why would you want to get rid of Charnel Houses, comma, the single best oWoD book? I mean that unironically. It took me ages to find a copy of Charnel Houses of Europe and, even though Wraith isn't my bag, it was a great read. Oh wait, you're talking about something else. gently caress WoD
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Dec 11, 2015 08:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:Ah, but can we save Changeling by making it instead into Dril Pencils? drilpgs should totally be a thing. I'll get us started. 
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Dec 11, 2015 08:58
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Inzombiac posted:It took me ages to find a copy of Charnel Houses of Europe and, even though Wraith isn't my bag, it was a great read. There's only the one Charnel Houses, and it genuinely is one of the most sensitive treatments of the subject that could be given. Bizarrely, more than a few people hate that it exists purely because it deals with the Holocaust, regardless of tone. Charnel Houses was probably White Wolf at their very best when it came to giving ways to try and understand - and process - horrific material in a way the average person can relate to. If anything, it's what I wish more of the oWoD was like. Nuanced, sensitive, and as far as such a thing can be at all, appropriate to the gravity of the material. Pope Guilty posted:You see that guy over there? He works 60 hours a week to feed, clothe, and shelter his family. What an rear end in a top hat! And how dare that lawyer work twice as many hours as he legally should defending indigent clients with little to no pay and less appreciation, fighting for the dream of justice, using only his ability to sway a small crowd with the passion of his words and the sharpness of his mind! What a loving boring banal dick!
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Dec 11, 2015 09:01
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Pope Guilty posted:You see that guy over there? He works 60 hours a week to feed, clothe, and shelter his family. What an rear end in a top hat! Loomer posted:And how dare that lawyer work twice as many hours as he legally should defending indigent clients with little to no pay and less appreciation, fighting for the dream of justice, using only his ability to sway a small crowd with the passion of his words and the sharpness of his mind! What a loving boring banal dick! Mors Rattus posted:However, due to a joint Technocrat/Pentex team exploring the ocean floor and doing science enthusiastically - and, in fact, the Technocrat part of the team was just generally nice guy Void Engineers who loved oceanography, marine biology and learning new things - the merfolk were all dying out of banality. Because a secret ultratech undersea research base is the most Banal thing ever. They were genociding the merfolk without ever knowing the merfolk existed. This part is at least consistent across the oWOD, and I can understand what a sane person might be trying to get at when writing like that. People can perpetuate oppressive systems without meaning harm to anyone; e.g. the professional skeptic who warns people away from faith healer con artists, who nonetheless contributes to the controlled Consensus and indirectly supports the excesses of the Syndicate or something. "Men" or "the rich" can be oppressive classes without making claims on any specific man or rich person because you don't model society as a collection of isolated individuals any more than you model a human as a collection of isolated molecules. The specific metaphor for Sealab 2020 there would be like an unsterilized Martian probe wiping out native life before it's ever even discovered, or (more fraught) a naval explorer accidentally introducing foreign diseases. So the oWOD is saying "your life and values are under threat by people who are largely innocent so you cannot solve the problem by killing all the orcs or whatever". Fine, great, a bit well-trodden now but maybe more revolutionary back in the 90s. What makes it all bizarre and stupid is how vacuous the other side is. What are they fighting for, or against? It can't just be "wonder and delight" because those are feelings, and emergent political systems don't have feelings. Individual wonder and delight doesn't seem to matter because as Mors Rattus points out, the Void Engineers have it and they kill all the merfolk by accident anyway. Are "any organized groups where you don't know everyone personally" the enemy, then? Is this an elaborate reference to Vonnegut's Bokononism? Am I taking crazy pills??? Who are the merfolk, and changelings in general, supposed to be? People with weird sex opinions? Artists and creatives strangled by encroaching commodity fetishism? The gays? Probably not, but what the hell? Nobody has any coherent politics except for maybe the werewolves. Since you don't have any coherent politics, and you're writing in the best economy since World War 2, but you still want to drat the Man in some way, what you end up with is hilarious stuff like this:  The oMage book I took that from has a long intro sequence where a Virtual Adept and a Hollow One go around meeting representatives of the other Traditions, and the Virtual Adept keeps saying that he doesn't believe in politics or groups or taking a side, you know, and all the other Tradition guys are like "yes, exactly, it's good to not have politics or believe in things, not like us, we are stupid to have beliefs". I mean, you can really see why these dopes lost the war. Dammit Who? fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 10:12
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Changelings as a force seem to want to be fighting for
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Dec 11, 2015 10:54
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Basically the secret of oWoD is that regular person (only one per city) would be substantially better off if none of the splats existed.
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Dec 11, 2015 12:48
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Mors Rattus posted:first world middle class white kid ability to not have to give a poo poo about real life problems. Ding. Ding. Ding. Peztopiary posted:Basically the secret of oWoD is that regular person (only one per city) would be substantially better off if none of the splats existed. Part of me wants to do a nChangeling (or hell any NWOD line) game where the group somehow winds up in the OWOD and has to go around saving people from these weird assholes.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:02
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Wyrm stuff is always treated as super banal because destruction leads to stasis, or something? It didn't make any goddamn sense. Which didn't make any goddamn sense either because they talk about how the unseelie houses like to hang out with Black Spiral Dancers in hives and Sabbat packs. Changeling has no consistency as a game. The main book constantly contradicts itself and the other books make it worse. C20 will possibly be the first time they ever make a version of the game with editorial oversight in play. Before Changeling was cancelled, the two books on the release schedule were Kithbook Boggan and the Book of Glamour. The Book of Glamour was supposed to be a big errata book and a guide to how precisely anything works in the game but I don't think it was even started.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:29
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I love how dreams and whimsy are exalted in oChangeling - right up until you start the hard work of realizing them in the world, then gently caress you, you banal gently caress, you. Deep sea underwater station was some kid's dream, who went to engineering school, made connections, and finally made it happen for real. Its success is anathema to the Idea Guys who laze about and expect success or convince themselves that dreaming is the hard work. It's such a wrong-headed immature clusterfuck.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:43
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Which didn't make any goddamn sense either because they talk about how the unseelie houses like to hang out with Black Spiral Dancers in hives and Sabbat packs. Part of what you're seeing there is the idea, especially in first and second edition, that the antagonists of each line are evil, and therefore they ought to all be on the same side. That's why the Technocracy controls a chunk of Pentex instead of giving it the Ravnos Antediluvian treatment, or why the Sabbat is cool with the Wyrm (and, in fact, extra Wyrm-tainty) despite that consorting with a cosmic spirit of decay, corruption, and death is exactly the sort of thing the Inquisition tortures you to final death for.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:46
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Wyrm stuff is always treated as super banal because destruction leads to stasis, or something? It didn't make any goddamn sense. The Uncorruped wyrm would have been very anti-banal. The entire point of the Wyrm as a part of the Triat is that it world to oppose stasis so that new things can be created. So I honestly could see the Unseelie working with the Wyrm to bring about a creators paradise. Cancer's beautiful to someone isn't it? Book of the Weaver is probably the best changeling antagonist book ever printed though. It's filled with well meaning people who have no idea they're actually servants of stasis, just trying to make the world a better place. moths posted:I love how dreams and whimsy are exalted in oChangeling - right up until you start the hard work of realizing them in the world, then gently caress you, you banal gently caress, you. No you idiot. Making an underwater research laboratory harms our glorious natural resources. You must create literal art, music, paintings, dance, and nothing else. Or space stations. Space stations are okay.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:01
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The point of the technocracy is to circumscribe all reality, destroy all magic, and control all outcomes. So I don't see why it wouldn't be banality city.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:20
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Kurieg posted:No you idiot. Making an underwater research laboratory harms our glorious natural resources. You must create literal art, music, paintings, dance, and nothing else. Wouldn't actual art be banal , too? Practice, repetition, and self-analysis aren't whimsical!
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Dec 11, 2015 16:54
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Frank Lloyd Wright: banal instrument of The Man, enemy of dreams.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:54
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The undertone of counter-revolutionary views in oChangeling reflects that the typical consumer is largely the white, privileged product of bourgeoisie thought that- since the end of Jim Crow- has the most to lose from the modern state of greater equity & equality. oChangeling hates The Man in the same way, but for the exact opposite reasons that blaxploitation films hated The Man.
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Dec 11, 2015 17:07
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Gerund posted:The undertone of counter-revolutionary views in oChangeling reflects that the typical consumer is largely the white, privileged product of bourgeoisie thought that- since the end of Jim Crow- has the most to lose from the modern state of greater equity & equality its not counterrevolutionary its Romantic sheesh
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Dec 11, 2015 17:35
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Dammit Who? posted:The oMage book I took that from has a long intro sequence where a Virtual Adept and a Hollow One go around meeting representatives of the other Traditions, and the Virtual Adept keeps saying that he doesn't believe in politics or groups or taking a side, you know, and all the other Tradition guys are like "yes, exactly, it's good to not have politics or believe in things, not like us, we are stupid to have beliefs". I mean, you can really see why these dopes lost the war. isn't the entire reason the Traditions including the Virtual Adepts exist at all as discrete entities is that they believe in politics, groups and taking a side, and that they capital-B Believe in different things Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 18:04
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Tezzor posted:isn't the entire reason the Traditions including the Virtual Adepts exist at all as discrete entities is that they believe in politics, groups and taking a side, and that they capital-B Believe in different things Of all the infuriating things about the old World of Darkness, the most infuriating to me is the way that a lot of the people writing for Ascension were determined to deny the premises of the game they were writing for.
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Dec 11, 2015 18:32
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:its not counterrevolutionary its Romantic sheesh Futurism turns out to be Changeling as gently caress
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Dec 11, 2015 18:58
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Peztopiary posted:Basically the secret of oWoD is that regular person (only one per city) would be substantially better off if none of the splats existed. To be fair to the oWoD, I'm pretty sure this is also true for the nWoD.
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Dec 11, 2015 19:11
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In the NWOD, the average regular person would be hosed if the PC splats went missing because predatory spirits would have nothing keeping them in check, angels would perfectly carry out their ineffable orders without breaking down, and anyone kidnapped into Elfland wouldn't ever be able to escape. Oh and also we'd probably have been overwritten into the Prince of 100,000 leaves already.
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Dec 11, 2015 19:16
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Unless you also un-gently caress the triat at the same time as you remove them, I think that the mortals of the oWoD are better off with the Garou around, on the whole.
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Dec 11, 2015 20:59
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Kurieg posted:Unless you also un-gently caress the triat at the same time as you remove them, I think that the mortals of the oWoD are better off with the Garou around, on the whole. Nah, they are pretty poo poo. Retroactively killing them would be the greatest thing you could do to help the planet, but eliminating them all at whatever point you happen to be at is a good second best. Losing the Spirals is worth whatever vague benefit the rest of the Garou brought to the table. Let the Changing Breeds sweep up their kinfolk, and with the time bought with the Spirals out of the way they might just get a handle on everything. It's not like they have any particularly valuable skills beyond "gently caress people up". They aren't the best healers, they don't know the most about magic, they aren't the best traveled, they don't have the strongest spirit ties.....really they are pretty poo poo at everything but killing people on their own team. They did that *super* well on multiple occasions. Like I can't think of a single splat they ever did that was as toxic for the planet as the Garou were, and I include the literal Judeo-Christian demons in that list.
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Dec 11, 2015 23:49
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I was assuming that the Fera would be out the door with the Garou since they were all created at the same time. If you could get rid of the Garou and just the Garou and none of the other Fera fall to the Wyrm in their stead then yes? But I imagine either the Grondr or Nagah would definitely head down that road.
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Dec 11, 2015 23:53
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