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DoctorWhat, stop making declarative statements of fact about things that are purely opinion-bas-DoctorWhat posted:Clara owns. Oh wait, nevermind 
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Dec 13, 2015 22:06
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And More posted:Self-reflection is boring, now? You're gonna make half the authors of the past two centuries spin in their graves. Self-reflection isn't boring, that's not what I said. I think that viewing the show giving some kind of moral rebuttal to itself (which is how I understand DoctorWhat read last week's one based on what I quoted) is as interesting as broadcasting an Official BBC Apology for The Doctor's bad behaviour (i.e. not very).
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Dec 13, 2015 22:09
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I wouldn't mind getting an official BBC apology for two of last season's episodes. I'm willing to bet you all know which two, too.
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Dec 13, 2015 22:12
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Cliff Racer posted:I wouldn't mind getting an official BBC apology for two of last season's episodes. I'm willing to bet you all know which two, too. Dear BBC, your episodes Mummy on the Orient Express and Flatline have set a high watermark for entertainment that will be difficult to meet, thus making other perfectly fine episodes seem less impressive by comparison. Please apologize immediately for this transgression, and seek mediocrity as your baseline instead (see Broadchurch Season 2 for a primer). Signed, Brigadier Sir Charles Arthur Strong (Ms.)
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Dec 13, 2015 22:17
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so I don't think there's anyone we've met recently who's looking like companion material. So will the next one be someone we meet next premiere? Could this be a return to an RTD style "had an adventure together once and decided to make it a thing" companions, instead of The Girl who Waited or Enigma Girl companions who had some epic destiny to fulfill with the doctor.
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Dec 13, 2015 22:22
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Stabbatical posted:Self-reflection isn't boring, that's not what I said. I think that viewing the show giving some kind of moral rebuttal to itself (which is how I understand DoctorWhat read last week's one based on what I quoted) is as interesting as broadcasting an Official BBC Apology for The Doctor's bad behaviour (i.e. not very). It's only a rebuttal in the sense that there was a different showrunner during Donna's finale. Taking the show as a whole, I'd be more inclined to view it as something like Midnight where the Doctor's usual way of solving his problems ultimately blows up in his face. Acne Rain posted:so I don't think there's anyone we've met recently who's looking like companion material. So will the next one be someone we meet next premiere? Could this be a return to an RTD style "had an adventure together once and decided to make it a thing" companions, instead of The Girl who Waited or Enigma Girl companions who had some epic destiny to fulfill with the doctor. I really hope so. After Amy and Clara, I'm kind of done with having the fate of the entire universe rest on the shoulders of the "girl" who (insert attribute here). And More fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 22:23
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I want the new companion to be Faye Marsay's character from last year's Christmas special.
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Dec 13, 2015 22:30
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cargohills posted:I want the new companion to be Faye Marsay's character from last year's Christmas special. Seriously, Shona was great.
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Dec 13, 2015 22:34
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The best episodes are almost always not about the Doctor or the mythology of the series. So yes, I for one don't like it when Doctor Who is about the Doctor. Oh I think I misunderstood, I was thinking of something like Doctor Who without the Doctor. Nevermind.
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Dec 13, 2015 22:36
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saucerman posted:Oh I think I misunderstood, I was thinking of something like Doctor Who without the Doctor. Nevermind. Like Blink then? 
Stabbatical fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 22:44
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DoctorWhat posted:You wanna talk about "lazy storytelling"? Raven was the perfect ending for Clara. The past little while has been all about showing her as a Doctor figure, and then her coming to understand all the ramifications of what it means to be the Doctor. She thought she knew what she was doing, but she never quite understood that it's called "risking your life" because eventually, no matter how good you are, if you keep doing it, you're going to lose it. That's how every Doctor's story ends. Except she's human and can't regenerate, so she just dies trying to make a difference and save innocent life, and it's noble and tragic and beautiful and appropriate that she only comes to understand it when it's too late to use that knowledge to save herself. But then, not for the first time, having told a nice story with a great ending, NewWho just cannot leave well enough alone. (See also: Pond, Amy & Rory; Tyler, Rose; Jones, Harriet.)
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Dec 13, 2015 22:52
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I think giving Capaldi a younger male companion to get exasperated at could work quite well. Or someone not from the 21st century. Obviously, there's got to be that chemistry between the actors, otherwise it can cross into the insufferable territory.Trin Tragula posted:But then, not for the first time, having told a nice story with a great ending, NewWho just cannot leave well enough alone. (See also: Pond, Amy & Rory; Tyler, Rose; Jones, Harriet.) That really encapsulates my problem with Hell Bent, especially when the whole point of her trying to live as the Doctor is not meant to be a positive thing. Then the ending turns around and says, "yeah well, actually ignore all that stuff telling you how negative it was, it's actually a really good thing, and she gets to live as the Doctor with her own TARDIS, and her own companion! Yeah, she dies eventually but, isn't that great!?" A cheap death for shock value isn't a good thing - but this whole season has basically been building up to Clara's death. She gets a whole drat goodbye episode...and then two episodes later, the big New Who reveal of Gallifrey - a plot thread that has really defined the Doctor's character since the revival - is spunked away in twenty minutes, so she can get another extended goodbye.
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Dec 13, 2015 23:05
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Capaldi doesn't want a younger male companion, he wants to be the one who does the running around
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Dec 14, 2015 00:03
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^ Her trying to live like the Doctor is not a bad thing unless you consider the Doctor to be a unique hero or a superman. This is the inherent tension in the story: Clara is 'acting up' into the position of Doctor. Fire from the gods. Donna achieved this position and was punished for it.Trin Tragula posted:Raven was the perfect ending for Clara. The past little while has been all about showing her as a Doctor figure, and then her coming to understand all the ramifications of what it means to be the Doctor. She thought she knew what she was doing, but she never quite understood that it's called "risking your life" because eventually, no matter how good you are, if you keep doing it, you're going to lose it. That's how every Doctor's story ends. Except she's human and can't regenerate, so she just dies trying to make a difference and save innocent life, and it's noble and tragic and beautiful and appropriate that she only comes to understand it when it's too late to use that knowledge to save herself. It's exactly the perfect death. Hell Bent wouldn't work at all if it wasn't. An unsatisfactory death story immediately prompts itself a story where the death is undone, which happened about five times just this season solely to Clara. Face the Raven is the perfect exit excellent story for a companion who has no workable exit other than some form of death. Hell Bent is about one-upping that. Hell Bent is a two-parter with Heaven Sent because they're both about cheating inescapable prisons.
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Dec 14, 2015 00:05
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josh04 posted:^ Her trying to live like the Doctor is not a bad thing unless you consider the Doctor to be a unique hero or a superman. This is the inherent tension in the story: Clara is 'acting up' into the position of Doctor. Fire from the gods. Donna achieved this position and was punished for it. The Doctor is a unique hero/superman. His special power is that he can come back from the dead. For all intents and purposes it is a super power. Hell Bent one upped Face the Raven in the same way that my turd one upped the cake I shat it out on. It ruins the cake and contributes nothing on its own either.
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Dec 14, 2015 00:15
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Capaldi doesn't want a younger male companion, he wants to be the one who does the running around I for one admire his commitment to keeping Armando Iannucci laughing.
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Dec 14, 2015 00:39
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Cliff Racer posted:The Doctor is a unique hero/superman. His special power is that he can come back from the dead. For all intents and purposes it is a super power. Clara can also come back from the dead. In fact, anyone can. It's a TV show.
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Dec 14, 2015 00:44
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Okay, we can fix this. It turns out Clara actually died Last Christmas. That's what the orange meant, they were still dreaming and this whole season has been a dream. Why would the Doctor be passed out on a volcano planet anyway? That never made sense. Anyway, he gets woken up for real and rushes to earth, but Clara is already dead.  However, he is still able to save Shona, who becomes his new companion.
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Dec 14, 2015 00:46
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I'm consistently surprised that people latched onto Shona as the obvious next companion in "Last Christmas". I mean, no harm to her or anything, it's just that I remember watching it a year ago and being absolutely convinced that Ashley (Natalie Gumede's character) was the one being set up in that regard. 
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Dec 14, 2015 01:05
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Capaldi doesn't want a younger male companion, he wants to be the one who does the running around No reason he can't do that still - everyone needs a cab-horse, after all. josh04 posted:^ Her trying to live like the Doctor is not a bad thing unless you consider the Doctor to be a unique hero or a superman. This is the inherent tension in the story: Clara is 'acting up' into the position of Doctor. Fire from the gods. Donna achieved this position and was punished for it. I don't see how they could get more explict that it's a bad thing, given what the Doctor tells her in Flatline, and his general disapproval of her trying to live her life as recklessly as he does, out of concern for her well being - he even says the reason it works for him is he's more durable. From his perspective, death is a thing that's happened mutiple times; he'll get over it (or so he hopes). For her, it's permanent - short of the Hell Bent's arse-pull. The Doctor escapes his prison, completely - Clara's only really delayed her execution. She didn't cheat her fate, just delayed it somewhat - I suppose depending on personal outlook, this could be a positive or negative thing. As for Hell Bent, it falls apart at the seams, and retroactively cheapens the whole point of Face the Raven (not that I was overly keen on the FtR in general). However, it works as an amazing mirror to Heaven Sent, as a study of Moffat's writing - Heaven Sent with the highs, and Hell Bent with the lows. HS is perfectly paced, hits all the story and emotional beats it needs to, generally manages to feel cohesive, and like its driving towards an end goal. Yeah, it's got its issues, but I think it largely succeeds in telling its story. HB has the usual Moffat sins of cramming in everything in at once, desperately trying to tie disparate plot threads together, with the end result that everything feels rather aimless. The main thrust is for the Doctor to get over Clara - that's fine - but the whole thing is just resolved so inelegantly, and full of so much poo poo that isn't given a chance to breath.
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Dec 14, 2015 01:10
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Ok, all caught up. So now we have a couple humans with a TARDIS, and they are going to have it taken away from them by some bad guy and then the universe is in trouble. They aren't Timelords, they can't sum up an entire situation with a glance and start working a game 3 levels deep to solve it.
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Dec 14, 2015 01:19
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Pesky Splinter posted:I don't see how they could get more explict that it's a bad thing, given what the Doctor tells her in Flatline, and his general disapproval of her trying to live her life as recklessly as he does, out of concern for her well being - he even says the reason it works for him is he's more durable. From his perspective, death is a thing that's happened mutiple times; he'll get over it (or so he hopes). For her, it's permanent - short of the Hell Bent's arse-pull. They're explicit that the Doctor thinks it's a bad idea, but the Doctor is wrong on this one. And a little patronising - liable to try the poo poo he pulled with Donna again. The Doctor can't hold the mantra 'do as I say, not as I do'. It's hypocritical, and more than a little cowardly. Heaven Sent is very easy to like - it's pretty much just an hour of excuses for Capaldi to Act wrapped in a simple puzzle box. It's easy to imagine a very lazy Moffat season peppered with episodes like Heaven Sent. Appreciating it is as simple as watching Capaldi do his thing, and makes it very easy to gloss over the loose plotting (there's a room which has a literal plot hole, for instance, and nothing after Capaldi exits the ice makes much sense). Hell Bent is more challenging, but it's definitely the better written of the two even where it fails (the explanation of why the Sisters of Karn are there has fallen by the wayside somewhere for example, but it's hard to argue the episode would be better off without them).
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Dec 14, 2015 01:21
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GORDON posted:Ok, all caught up. Me is billions of years old at this point, I doubt many people can pull the wool over her eyes.
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Dec 14, 2015 01:22
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GORDON posted:Ok, all caught up. Or the time lords will just go fetch them. I assume after One stole his first TARDIS they installed lojacks in the rest of the fleet.
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Dec 14, 2015 01:23
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Jerusalem posted:Me is several billion years old at this point, I doubt many people can pull the wool over her eyes. I don't think it is about gullibility... I think it's powers of perception. They've shown more than once that the Doctor sees more in a glance than a human can see even when it is explained to them, and that's about the only thing that keeps the Doctor alive. But it's probably silly to argue about this. :-D
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Dec 14, 2015 01:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm consistently surprised that people latched onto Shona as the obvious next companion in "Last Christmas". I mean, no harm to her or anything, it's just that I remember watching it a year ago and being absolutely convinced that Ashley (Natalie Gumede's character) was the one being set up in that regard. It's less 'convinced', and more 'hopeful'. Like, we just want to see her be the next companion.
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Dec 14, 2015 01:25
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josh04 posted:They're explicit that the Doctor thinks it's a bad idea, but the Doctor is wrong on this one. And a little patronising - liable to try the poo poo he pulled with Donna again. The Doctor can't hold the mantra 'do as I say, not as I do'. It's hypocritical, and more than a little cowardly. I'd disagree. She ignores his warning, and still ends up dying as a result. I'd say that's a pretty bad thing still. As for the Doctor's hypocrisy; "Coward, any day." josh04 posted:Heaven Sent is very easy to like - it's pretty much just an hour of excuses for Capaldi to Act wrapped in a simple puzzle box. It's easy to imagine a very lazy Moffat season peppered with episodes like Heaven Sent. Appreciating it is as simple as watching Capaldi do his thing, and makes it very easy to gloss over the loose plotting (there's a room which has a literal plot hole, for instance, and nothing after Capaldi exits the ice makes much sense). Hell Bent is more challenging, but it's definitely the better written of the two even where it fails (the explanation of why the Sisters of Karn are there has fallen by the wayside somewhere for example, but it's hard to argue the episode would be better off without them). I don't disagree with your view of HS, nor do I like anything after he breaks down the wall, but that's two minutes of poo poo tacked on to a pretty watchable episode. Rather than HB, which is two minutes of a watchable episode drowning in a mountain of poo poo. If HS is lazy good Moffat, give me more of that, rather than lazy bad Moffat. HB is really badly written; there's ways to present the same story in a much better fashion by choosing something to loving focus on. There's so much dead weight to the story; the Matrix Spectres, the pointless Dalek, Angel, Cybermen cameos, the Sisterhood of Karn - and they contribute absolutely nothing to the narrative. It's all fine and dandy knowing that the Matrix is guarded by digital ghosts...but they don't do anything. They don't attack anyone, they don't interact with anyone. Nothing of concequence happens with them. They're pointless. Either Moffat wants to tell a story about how much more important to the Doctor, Clara is than Gallifrey, or it's about the Doctor returning to Gallifrey, and a showdown with the TImelords because of the hybrid. Not some half-assed amalgam where everything is rushed as hell because he didn't plan it out correctly. Hell, it's not impossible to combine the two, and still keep all the elements he's trying for; have some bullshit that Rassilon has locked himself in the centre of the matrix and the Doctor needs to [blagh] because he hopes it'll save Clara etc. Whatever. There's so many ways to make it work better. Ideally, the hybrid stuff that no-ones gives a gently caress about would have been a path better not trod in the first place, but yeah. [e]: Yeah, I know, I'm just speaking rhetorically. VVV Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 02:05
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Pesky Splinter posted:Either Moffat wants to tell a story about how much more important to the Doctor, Clara is than Gallifrey, There's no "either" about it, that's 100% what Hell Bent is about.
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Dec 14, 2015 02:14
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Anyone know offhand how much Big Finish charges for shipping to the US? War Doctor stuff might actually be worth buying in physical form...
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Dec 14, 2015 03:08
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Speaking of which, it's technically the 14th in England, where's my War Doctor? 
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Dec 14, 2015 03:10
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I think making a big deal about the Doctor being unique and nobody else can do what he does has a certain... Elitism? The moral of the story shouldn't be "doing the right thing just gets you killed unless you're an immortal alien super genius."
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Dec 14, 2015 03:16
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Doing the right thing got Clara killed.
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Dec 14, 2015 03:37
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Was that really the right thing? Her game plan seemed to be, "The Doctor won't allow me to die." It seems like she wasn't certain whether The Doctor would sit idly by as a friend was killed by one of his enemies, which suggests she learned nothing from Dark Water. On the other hand, Clara dying also deposes Rassilon. Maybe the Doctor doesn't have the motivation to survive the time dial dungeon if he isn't motivated to resurrect her. But if he was defeated there, doesn't he just reveal that the hybrid was all made up? It seemed like something he just pulled out of his rear end to hold leverage over the time lords, and it bothered them enough to put him through a lot of suffering. Where the story falls apart for me is that I don't know why the Doctor needed to psych out the time lords to start with. Maxwell Lord posted:I think making a big deal about the Doctor being unique and nobody else can do what he does has a certain... Elitism? It's that most humans shouldn't try. Emphasis most because there's a few that can. In Utopia(?) Jack walked into a Chamber Of Certain Death while Ten stood around outside and remarked that Jack has become a dangerous anomaly of the universe that time travelers ought to run away from. Clara is the same way, a pre-destined time and place of death that fell out of that spot, but eventually has to reach it or else a paradox will form. gently caress only knows if the Doctor himself is one of these, Moff seems to have him playing with permadeath every season even after identifying Trenzalore as his certain no-poo poo place of demise. But anyhow, unless your death is so fixed a destiny that the universe is practically bending bullets to keep them from hitting you, you probably shouldn't be tackling death at a regular basis. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 03:55
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The Doctor needs two companions from vastly different times and settings. Perhaps one of them could wear a kilt or something...
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Dec 14, 2015 03:56
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Craptacular! posted:Where the story falls apart for me is that I don't know why the Doctor needed to psych out the time lords to start with. He wanted to save Clara from death and the only way to do that was to hold all the cards in the relationship with the Time Lords, to put him in a position where he could use the extraction chamber and then cheese it with Clara in a TARDIS. The moment he reveals he has no extra information about the Hybrid beyond a theory based on the vague and unreliable words of the "prophecy", he loses his trump card. He willingly allows himself to die billions of times just to further the idea that he was holding on to some incredibly valuable information that they wanted, all so he could satisfy HIS agenda.
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Dec 14, 2015 04:05
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Rhyno posted:The Doctor needs two companions from vastly different times and settings. Perhaps one of them could wear a kilt or something... Actually I've been thinking of this and I want an Edwardian Adam Adamant type along with a 2030s lady. The only problem is that either one could easily become annoying.
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Dec 14, 2015 04:36
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Frazer Hines and Wendy Padbury forever.
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Dec 14, 2015 04:41
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jivjov posted:Anyone know offhand how much Big Finish charges for shipping to the US? War Doctor stuff might actually be worth buying in physical form... The War Doctor set was $4.53 shipping for me
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Dec 14, 2015 04:41
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I gotta say, I'm really not down with Big Finish's new predilection to bundle everything into "collections" or seasons that cost $20. Sometimes I might want to try a new range or something a la carte, but you can ONLY buy audios like War Doctor, Jago and Litefoot, and the new Third Doctor audios as collections. Same for the Blake's 7 Liberator Chronicles. Granted, $20 isn't much more than the $12.99 I pay for a new DW monthly, and you're getting more than one story, but it's more than double the $8 or $9 that a lot of audios run. I've probably spent more on BF than any other form of entertainment in the last 5 years, hundreds of dollars, I don't see why they feel the need to get more from me at one time.
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Dec 14, 2015 04:55
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Cliff Racer posted:The Doctor is a unique hero/superman. His special power is that he can come back from the dead. For all intents and purposes it is a super power. I mean. Aside from the fact that Time Lords are physically and mentally superior to humans in just about every aspect, too. Rhyno posted:The Doctor needs two companions from vastly different times and settings. Perhaps one of them could wear a kilt or something... I would love this kind of dynamic. Having a human peer might help a companion be less...dependent? More independent (Yes, by having a second character with them), at least of the Doctor.
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Dec 14, 2015 05:07
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