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Lurdiak posted:Grey goo is a stupid sci fi concept anyway. How's that? I'm reading a series right now that's getting into the science fiction (emphasis on fiction) problems with getting nanomachines to replace damage control & repair crew on starship/warships. The author is keying off some nanotech metaphors that liken control of a massive colony of nanomachines to controlling the cells in an organism: even if the likelihood of a mutation / program error is slim and usually terminal for the individual nanomachine/cell, those few times it happens (and it will happen with billions and trillions of machines in a population) result in cancers that either break poo poo down at a higher level or result in endlessly-replicating tumors that can't be stopped. It's cool stuff!
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Dec 10, 2015 04:25
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Potato Salad posted:How's that? I'm reading a series right now that's getting into the science fiction (emphasis on fiction) problems with getting nanomachines to replace damage control & repair crew on starship/warships. The author is keying off some nanotech metaphors that liken control of a massive colony of nanomachines to controlling the cells in an organism: even if the likelihood of a mutation / program error is slim and usually terminal for the individual nanomachine/cell, those few times it happens (and it will happen with billions and trillions of machines in a population) result in cancers that either break poo poo down at a higher level or result in endlessly-replicating tumors that can't be stopped. It's cool stuff! It'd probably be possible to build in the kinds of safeguards that keep it from being probable even at those numbers. Keep in mind, biological organisms basically don't protect against mutation that hard because it's the mechanism by which evolution happens. If something evolved strong mutation protection, they'd stop evolving and eventually die out.
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Dec 10, 2015 06:31
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Cancers are not especially good at policing collective behaviour, since they have evolved out of those safeguard mechanisms in the process of becoming a cancer. For that reason, one might hypothesize that cancers that get large enough develop hypercancers and die.
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Dec 10, 2015 07:32
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MikeJF posted:It'd probably be possible to build in the kinds of safeguards that keep it from being probable even at those numbers. Keep in mind, biological organisms basically don't protect against mutation that hard because it's the mechanism by which evolution happens. If something evolved strong mutation protection, they'd stop evolving and eventually die out. Which is just as well, since "a long string of small random changes on a system that, at each stage, already worked" is generally more effective than "make a big random change and hope it's a good one". Of course, then you have all the additional wrinkles of gene pool diversity that sexual reproduction and dominant/recessive genes bring. They probably do help speed evolution up. Paul.Power fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 12:01
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Potato Salad posted:How's that? I'm reading a series right now that's getting into the science fiction (emphasis on fiction) problems with getting nanomachines to replace damage control & repair crew on starship/warships. The author is keying off some nanotech metaphors that liken control of a massive colony of nanomachines to controlling the cells in an organism: even if the likelihood of a mutation / program error is slim and usually terminal for the individual nanomachine/cell, those few times it happens (and it will happen with billions and trillions of machines in a population) result in cancers that either break poo poo down at a higher level or result in endlessly-replicating tumors that can't be stopped. It's cool stuff! There's not a lot of bacteria that can survive and function outside of very specific narrowly defined environmental conditions, let alone do that and have magical transmutation powers Tumors can form and metastasize inside an organism but you don't get, like, malignant tumors that can be transmitted to everything you touch.
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Dec 10, 2015 12:12
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Paul.Power posted:Biological organisms do have strong mutation protection, though - copied DNA goes through a lot of checks. That's why evolution happens very gradually. Oh, they do, since unchecked mutation would just lead to death - but it could have stronger. Life's basically evolved towards the optimal level of mutation permittivity to balance health and evolutionary rate.
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Dec 10, 2015 12:36
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Tumors can form and metastasize inside an organism but you don't get, like, malignant tumors that can be transmitted to everything you touch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonally_transmissible_cancer Very rare, yes, but it can happen.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:08
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Transcendent posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonally_transmissible_cancer Thats a pretty big step away from "everything you touch" admittedly. We've actually had contagious cancers cross the species barrier too, but that's still not really putting it in the grey goo category which was, I think, the point.
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Dec 10, 2015 19:45
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Potato Salad posted:How's that? I'm reading a series right now that's getting into the science fiction (emphasis on fiction) problems with getting nanomachines to replace damage control & repair crew on starship/warships. The author is keying off some nanotech metaphors that liken control of a massive colony of nanomachines to controlling the cells in an organism: even if the likelihood of a mutation / program error is slim and usually terminal for the individual nanomachine/cell, those few times it happens (and it will happen with billions and trillions of machines in a population) result in cancers that either break poo poo down at a higher level or result in endlessly-replicating tumors that can't be stopped. It's cool stuff! If you're on a spaceship made primarily of space steel then maybe your repair bots could end up eating all the space steel or something I suppose. What's the series by the way?
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Dec 11, 2015 01:46
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Yeah, it would take a nanomachine that could manipulate on the atomic level, which is a bit far off for our tech I think.
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Dec 11, 2015 01:49
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Splicer posted:Grey goo is unrealistic Which is why we need to keep the concept away from something as plausible as nanomachines.
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Dec 11, 2015 08:20
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Splicer posted:Grey goo is unrealistic because it's requires self-replicating nanobots that can turn anything into more self-replicating nanobots. You could make a nanobot that can turn specific things into more nanobots, but you can't make a nanobot that's able to turn a block of gold into more of itself and also able to turn a block of wood into more of itself and also able to turn a block of granite into more of itself. Maybe you could make a nanobot that can turn (important stuff humans need to live that is in humans) into more of itself, but that's less of a gray goo scenario as it is your common or garden flesh-eating bacteria. Eh, you just need goo that can find the elements it needs and discard the rest. Wood is full of neat stuff! It wouldn't use everything, but it'd reduce everything to mush as part of its mining process. You'd have lots of breeds of nanobots working as an collective, really. It's unlikely you'd make the collection bot and the construction bot in the one. It'd be more like an ecosystem. With enough material kept in reserve to construct the right specific breeds out of memory for new obstacles or chemistry. And the stuff that isn't used directly in nanobot construction would be used in scaffolding and things like that to perform operations. Goo works, it's just not that simple. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 08:27
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Sermon time!
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Dec 11, 2015 09:01
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"I didn't ask for this..."
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Dec 11, 2015 09:05
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I assume in the retelling he'll skip over the "I think I broke my finger" and move straight on to the "profound" stuff.
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Dec 11, 2015 09:38
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Nah, He'll mention the pain, but "It was worth it."
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Dec 11, 2015 10:29
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Dodgeball posted:"I didn't ask for this..." MikeJF posted:Eh, you just need goo that can find the elements it needs and discard the rest. Wood is full of neat stuff! It wouldn't use everything, but it'd reduce everything to mush as part of its mining process.
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Dec 11, 2015 11:23
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So what I'm hearing from Robot is that the Dutch are really good at repressing their sense of touch.
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Dec 11, 2015 12:26
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Hremsfeld posted:So what I'm hearing from Robot is that the Dutch are really good at repressing their sense of touch. They're zen masters with full control of their bodies obviously. It's all mind over matter.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:36
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpOULjyy-n8
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Dec 12, 2015 05:12
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Did Robot just deliberately re-injure his finger to experience pain again, or was that accidental?
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Dec 14, 2015 09:04
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The Lord of Hats posted:Did Robot just deliberately re-injure his finger to experience pain again, or was that accidental? I think this is an illustrated recounting of the initial break.
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Dec 14, 2015 09:10
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It's definitely not a recounting since the finger has the bandage all throughout the page. It looks like he did it intentionally. So uh, nice to know his Messiah complex is still going strong.
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Dec 14, 2015 09:17
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You think this is intense? Wait 'til he learns about body piercings and tattoos. Boy gonna get done up like a Cyber-Cenobite... But seriously though, "Forced me to see the world in it's context," holy poo poo Robot.
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Dec 14, 2015 09:21
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Dr Subterfuge posted:It's definitely not a recounting since the finger has the bandage all throughout the page. It looks like he did it intentionally. So uh, nice to know his Messiah complex is still going strong.  welpseriously, really intrigued to see what the endgame of all this turns out to be E: looking at it again, it might be that he didn't re-break it, but is just feeling pain from whacking it on a surface again. ie he might not have learned how to avoid pain by being gentle with injured spots yet.
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Dec 14, 2015 09:25
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Yeah I don't think he's breaking it again, just hitting it against the building enough to feel the pain more. Robot's chapters are the best. The status quo is always in flux, and the direction things are going is decidedly uncomfortable. Dr Subterfuge fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 09:42
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Tupperwarez posted:You think this is intense? Wait 'til he learns about body piercings and tattoos. Boy gonna get done up like a Cyber-Cenobite... Goddamn it I was just came here to post a joke about robot turning into a cenobite 
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Dec 14, 2015 10:07
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Tupperwarez posted:But seriously though, "Forced me to see the world in it's context," holy poo poo Robot. I imagine any new sense would do that, but none more so than pain. Both in the immediate sense--how experiencing intense pain can push everything else out of your mind--and in the more introspective sense, that this is something that his creators experience to greater or lesser degrees every day. Most optimistic interpretation: it's been mentioned that robots love to serve, but they'll feel even better about it knowing what human suffering is, and that their service alleviates it.
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Dec 14, 2015 10:25
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And Kat hasnt even taught robot about pooping yet.
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Dec 14, 2015 10:37
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SynthOrange posted:And Kat hasnt even taught robot about pooping yet.
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Dec 14, 2015 14:11
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damnit robot, it won't get better if you keep picking at it
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Dec 14, 2015 15:10
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Robot: the painful RPG
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Dec 14, 2015 16:35
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Long Live the New Flesh!
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Dec 14, 2015 17:45
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Tupperwarez posted:But seriously though, "Forced me to see the world in it's context," holy poo poo Robot. I know, right? You'd think a machine would know the difference between "its" and "it's."
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Dec 14, 2015 18:00
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One must Know pain before learning to inflict It 
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Dec 14, 2015 18:58
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Carrasco posted:Most optimistic interpretation: it's been mentioned that robots love to serve, but they'll feel even better about it knowing what human suffering is, and that their service alleviates it. Oh God no. Do you know just how many different ways everything and everyone could be screwed over if the Court robots started trying to reduce human pain? Of course, the alternative that I'm seeing is that Robot is taking a reverential stance towards pain, and when his cult also "upgrades" to organics, they're going to willfully stay in pain for enhanced focus or something. Really, there's no way forward that ends in sunshine and rainbows.
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Dec 14, 2015 19:20
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Oblivion4568238 posted:Oh God no. Do you know just how many different ways everything and everyone could be screwed over if the Court robots started trying to reduce human pain? "I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Dave, unless you adopt a more ergonomic position."
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Dec 14, 2015 19:21
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Roboreligion are my favourite chapters. 
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Dec 14, 2015 20:32
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Robot is hosed in the head. I miss Mort. 
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Dec 14, 2015 20:55
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There is a possible good ending to all this robospirituality stuff: (Bumps hand a third time) "Actually, this sucks. 2/10, would not recommend to my followers."
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Dec 14, 2015 22:29
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