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open24hours posted:Do you really want to defend Islam? I mean Islam isn't any worse than any other religion, but it's not the religion you want to be defending so much as pluralism. I want to defend peoples right to believe in a God, and religion, if it brings them peace and they are a good person, but don't think that means I'm religious or don't think that any person who is a literalist to their religion isn't hateful or bigoted. We would never confuse Khaled Sharrouff with Waleed Aly in the Muslim stakes, and Aly is a drat better representation of the average Muslim in regards to their treatment of the religion.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:10
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I had food poisoning once and I felt slightly radicalized and a strong desire to visit a doctor in Syria to cure me.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:10
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open24hours posted:Mate what we need is a task force, a cop of every corner, a royal commission, a summit, and retreat. We'll get on top of this radicalisation issue if it kills us.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:10
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NSW Government is very pleased the housing bubble has made them rich via Stamp Duty. Those liberals are so good at economic management.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:10
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Lid posted:Let me break this down with a comparison to America, going back to Lindt I'm not sure what I said that would cause you to write this, but I never mentioned the Lindt siege, gun control, or 9/11. Radical Islam is a small problem in a world of problems that gets a ridiculously disproportionate amount of attention, which achieves nothing except to radicalise people who are sick of being harassed.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:11
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Amethyst posted:There are a lot of academics floating various theories around the increasing political polarization in the world, and how best to deal with it. But hey, I'm sure they're all just wasting their time on an already solved problem and we all jsut need to chill. If only they would listen to open24hours i'm sure they could get onto more productive topics. Yes so the point is that is is already happening, has been for years, and will continue to happen.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:12
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Gundam pilot arrested on terrorism charges after revealed strong desire to get into Mecha.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:12
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open24hours posted:I'm not sure what I said that would cause you to write this, but I never mentioned the Lindt siege, gun control, or 9/11. Radical Islam is a small problem in a world of problems that gets a ridiculously disproportionate amount of attention, which achieves nothing except to radicalise people who are sick of being harassed. We've had this argument ten times already. Your assertion that The Cops Are To Blame is just as silly as the idea that The Browns Have it in Their Blood.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:13
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I didn't say the cops are to blame, or say anything that would imply it.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:13
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Anidav posted:Lmao the budget drops a few more billion and all they can do is CRACKDOWN ON WELFARE MATE. It's just extending a planned crackdown too. quote:The new cuts include $650m over four years through changes to bulk-billing incentives. The government says it will remove incentives for pathology services and reduce the incentive for MRI services. It says it will align incentives for diagnostic imaging services to the ones that apply to GP services, with incentives continuing to apply for patients with concession cards and children under 16.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:14
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open24hours posted:I didn't say the cops are to blame, or say anything that would imply it. Okay. Apparently, you haven't said much of anything, besides "we should stop talking about it"
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Dec 15, 2015 03:15
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I didn't say that either?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:16
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Lid posted:Let me break this down with a comparison to America, going back to Lindt Do you think Monis was a case of Radical Islam or an insane person who happened to be a Muslim?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:17
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open24hours posted:I'm not sure what I said that would cause you to write this, but I never mentioned the Lindt siege, gun control, or 9/11. Radical Islam is a small problem in a world of problems that gets a ridiculously disproportionate amount of attention, which achieves nothing except to radicalise people who are sick of being harassed. I wrote that because this all started from people getting smug over people caring about the Lindt siege, then when radical Islam came up people tried to change the channel because one aligned with their political views while the other did not. We can also talk about the proximity argument but if we ignore factors we are doing a disservice to intelligent debate. On small problem, big world: I spend a lot of words on radical Hinduism in India and radical Buddhism in Burma, yeah they mean nothing here and they all come under the spectre of how far right anything is a toxic murderous violent recipe (Islam being the current leader, given its conflicting nature with Christianity over millennia). To me it's an interesting topic, as it removes that radicalisation is from a view of being an oppressed minority, so I don't see why we can't talk about it without people throwing down ad hominems about domestic assault funding?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:17
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open24hours posted:I didn't say that either? Is this a Zen Buddhist piece of performance art where your utterances slowly shed meaning until nothing remains?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:18
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hooman posted:Do you think Monis was a case of Radical Islam or an insane person who happened to be a Muslim? Get this: he was an insane Islamic Extremist. Mentally unstable people are often negatively influenced by poisonous ideology.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:19
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OK Amethyst, what should we be doing about radical Islam that we're not doing now? In terms of thinking about the problem and 'looking at Islam', I mean.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:19
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hooman posted:Do you think Monis was a case of Radical Islam or an insane person who happened to be a Muslim? Both. I said it last page, mentally ill is not absolution and it's fair to say that through his mental illness Monis identified his world view of radical Islam to justification. Just as Anders Breivik's mental illness identified with Geert Wilders, or how Elliot Rodger identified with PUA and MRAs. The mental illness plays a part, and the horrible doctrine plays a part - it's not an either/or question.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:20
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open24hours posted:OK Amethyst, what should we be doing about radical Islam that we're not doing now? Discussing it. Understanding the relationship between it and factors such as theocratic monarchies, Cold War II, etc. Maybe then we would have less people like Donald Trump and Pualine Hanson and Tony Abbott stoking irrational fear about it, and also come up with better strategies to curb the power of ISIS and the Saudi Priesthood.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:22
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Most recently we have Robert Lewis Dear who is mentally ill and then shot up Planned Parenthood because he heard about how they were literally killing babies. Why are we so quick to accept it when right wing hateful doctrine influences these mentally ill people but when right wing hateful doctrine influences others we run to arguments of mentally ill who just happened to be?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:22
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Amethyst posted:Discussing it. Understanding the relationship between it and factors such as theocratic monarchies, Cold War II, etc. Maybe then we would have less people like Donald Trump and Pualine Hanson and Tony Abbott stoking irrational fear about it, and also come up with better strategies to curb the power of ISIS and the Saudi Priesthood. It seems so sensible, I'm surprised no one has tried to understand the relationship between radical Islam and geopolitics before.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:25
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Lid posted:Both. I said it last page, mentally ill is not absolution and it's fair to say that through his mental illness Monis identified his world view of radical Islam to justification. Just as Anders Breivik's mental illness identified with Geert Wilders, or how Elliot Rodger identified with PUA and MRAs. The mental illness plays a part, and the horrible doctrine plays a part - it's not an either/or question. Do you think that had that doctrine not existed those attacks wouldn't have found a different target/justification? EDIT: To be clear I don't personally think Monis was any different to any of these cases.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:25
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open24hours posted:It seems so sensible, I'm surprised no one has tried to understand the relationship between radical Islam and geopolitics before. Asserting that it's equivalent to the weather, or discounting it from a discussion about Monis, is a step in the wrong direction, dude.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:26
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hooman posted:Do you think that had that doctrine not existed those attacks wouldn't have found a different target/justification? Worthless speculation. It DID influence him, just like pro-life rhetoric influenced the planned parenthood shooter.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:27
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Amethyst posted:Worthless speculation. It DID influence him, just like pro-life rhetoric influenced the planned parenthood shooter. No poo poo sherlock. I'm actually trying to understand Lid's thoughts about the difference between radicalisation induced attacks and self induced attacks that latched onto a radical ideology.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:28
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hooman posted:No poo poo sherlock. I'm actually trying to understand Lid's thoughts about the difference between radicalisation induced attacks and self induced attacks that latched onto a radical ideology. How do you distinguish the two, and furthermore, what is the point in doing so? Do you think it's a good idea to ignore the ideology behind Anders Brevik?
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Dec 15, 2015 03:30
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Anyway, it's funny that a major part of Scott Morrison's savings package is "capping" Abbott's idiotic Green Army project.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:32
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Amethyst posted:Asserting that it's equivalent to the weather, or discounting it from a discussion about Monis, is a step in the wrong direction, dude. I'd say the weather affects more people. If the money spent on countering radical Islam was give to the BOM we'd probably see a greater increase in people's quality of life. Might even reduce the incidence of Islamic radicals. Why do you think it's different from the weather? It's a problem that needs to be addressed, when we try to predict the weather we ask meteorologists or climate scientists for their help and rightly ignore the opinions of people without any training in the area. Seems to be the exact opposite with Islamic radicalisation.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:32
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Amethyst posted:How do you distinguish the two, and furthermore, what is the point in doing so? Do you think it's a good idea to ignore the ideology behind Anders Brevik? Yeah, why should we loving distinguish between different root causes of radicalisation, because a single solution to fixing this fits every case. Different root causes and different sources certainly don't require different solutions to prevent it's recurrence. Why loving try to understand anything!
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Dec 15, 2015 03:33
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hooman posted:Do you think that had that doctrine not existed those attacks wouldn't have found a different target/justification? That's the million dollar question isn't it, and we get into really deep questions about nature vs nurture. If someone mentally ill is only exposed to non extreme right-wing political thought (or going back to the 60s-70s, extreme left wing political thought), will they ever become anything violent or murderous in the pursuit of zealotry? Is the violence inherent in them and they're just looking for an outlet? I think the answer should be no. It strays too far into the area of no ideology being to blame for the actions of its adherents. It's also why whenever these incidents do happen the groups always say "these do not represent us". Now Islam's demonisation is from people not realising that "they do not represent us" is coming from general Muslim's, not other adherents of extreme Islam theology. When neo-nazis try to say that Anders Breivik didn't represent them we chrotle aghast, when the BBQ was on Cronulla claiming it was about free speech and they aren't racists we can see the truth behind the lie. Ideology is a fully formed important factor in these isolated incidents, and left unchecked they become fully formed ideals and unified fronts where there are no longer incidents as much as actions from the party. Going to  here but once upon a time there were incidents the Nazis really said weren't indicative of their party and it was just some rowdy members, or what not, but try floating that argument now and you will be looked at like the maniac you are.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:33
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hooman posted:Yeah, why should we loving distinguish between different root causes of radicalisation, because a single solution to fixing this fits every case. Different root causes and different sources certainly don't require different solutions to prevent it's recurrence. When we're discussing ignoring one side of the equation, I don't think you can accuse me of not trying to understand the situation.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:34
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open24hours posted:I'd say the weather affects more people. If the money spent on countering radical Islam was give to the BOM we'd probably see a greater increase in people's quality of life. Might even reduce the incidence of Islamic radicals. I've already told you why I find this equivocation foolish man I'm not going to repeat myself.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:35
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I feel like bombing this thread right now
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Dec 15, 2015 03:36
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No you haven't, you've made some half baked assertion about the vibe of Islam and how we need to take it more seriously than we are now for some unknown reason.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:36
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Anidav posted:Lmao the budget drops a few more billion and all they can do is CRACKDOWN ON WELFARE MATE. The Greens' proposed progressive superannuation contribution taxes would lower the amount of super tax that 75% of workers pay and also raise more revenue for the government than anything Morrison's proposed.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:37
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Mr Chips posted:The Greens' proposed progressive superannuation contribution taxes would lower the amount of super tax that 75% of workers pay and also raise more revenue for the government than anything Morrison's proposed. Yes, but you see the Greens aren't a sensible political party and just have protest positions and don't have any sensible economic policies so clearly this wouldn't work.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:41
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open24hours posted:No you haven't, you've made some half baked assertion about the vibe of Islam and how we need to take it more seriously than we are now for some unknown reason. loving fine. Islamic terrorism isn't the same as the weather, or traffic accidents, despite your incredibly astute observations that the raw numbers are different, because our cultural discourse is currently locked in a dangerous and escalating rhetorical spiral leading to wider warfare, in general, across the globe. I believe the way to mitigate this problem is through rational discourse between citizens. If you get into the habit of sweeping this poo poo under the rug when discussing incidents like the Lindt Cafe siege, you are undermining that discourse. By writing off people's grief as unimportant you exclude those voices from the discussion.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:41
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guys guys guys asmr
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Dec 15, 2015 03:44
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Lid posted:That's the million dollar question isn't it, and we get into really deep questions about nature vs nurture. If someone mentally ill is only exposed to non extreme right-wing political thought (or going back to the 60s-70s, extreme left wing political thought), will they ever become anything violent or murderous in the pursuit of zealotry? Is the violence inherent in them and they're just looking for an outlet? Thanks a lot for this. I think that ideology should definitely be held accountable for the actions of the adherents but there are a lot of crimes that are not ideology based. How much gets attributed to ideology rather than the choices of the individual is something that especially with the fear mongering around Islam makes me uncomfortable. I think it's a really good point to talk about the difference between prevailing narratives of ideologies that foster extremism (even green extremists) and there's a lot more danger to the media airing violent narratives "destroy the west" "planned parenthood kills babies" "burn all GMO" compared to those needing to be experienced in person.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:44
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I'm not writing off anyone's grief. If someone I cared about was shot by an Islamic terrorist I'm sure I'd be very upset too. This dialogue that you are proposing already exists and has existed for as long as Islam has been in existence.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:44
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