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also ya we get it buses are bad, but they are also cheap and vital if you actually want to move people around and dont have 500 billion or a subway system already built pre-depression
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Dec 15, 2015 18:01
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Cygni posted:also ya we get it buses are bad, but they are also cheap and vital if you actually want to move people around and dont have 500 billion or a subway system already built pre-depression i just get tired of transit utopianism you see the reason people drive cars is that they're dumb, and cyclists and transit advocates just aren't preachy enough! that must be it. if we just yell at shaggar some more he'll sell one of his cars and commute to work by unicycle! buses are really bad and the shaggars of the world aren't wrong. (they just forget about the old people, the young people, and the poor people, who either can not or shoul not drive)
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Dec 15, 2015 18:08
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yep, I take BART into work/SF because it's actually on time most of the time and relatively quick (compared to traffic). though winter time on BART is never pleasant because you get a lot of "ol pukeys" or a non-stop cascading symphony of cough and sneezes but I never take AC Transit because it would be several orders of magnitude slower, and much less pleasant, even though everything is relatively well serviced on paper. I'll do Muni on the occasion but each time I've mostly regretted it. Used to take Sonoma Regional Transit for school when I was younger but had to stop because I would often end up waiting longer for the bus to arrive than if I had just driven to/from at that point, and it was bad enough to pretty much sour me on buses.
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Dec 15, 2015 18:19
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:to be clear about where i am coming from, i am not saying that you shouldn't ride a bus. and investing in bus systems is still a worthwhile activity. I agree that buses aren't always great and are normally slow, but measures like high frequency, overlapping routes and real time arrival boards can go a long way to making them convenient for many types of journey. They are also important for filling in the gaps in the transit network so that it is comprehensive enough that a car is not needed, which has follow on benefits for public transport and the city in general
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Dec 15, 2015 19:55
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also, when the alternative is paying $30+ for parking and spending an hour in traffic just to get into/out of the city core during rush hour, people who can do otherwise will voluntarily take the bus. in fact they'll even pay double fare for express service on a bus.
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Dec 15, 2015 19:58
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in this mythological universe where a bus that doesn't suck exists then yes im sure people use buses instead of sitting in traffic.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:13
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infernal machines posted:also, when the alternative is paying $30+ for parking and spending an hour in traffic just to get into/out of the city core during rush hour, people who can do otherwise will voluntarily take the bus. in fact they'll even pay double fare for express service on a bus. The popularity of some park&ride schemes is evidence of this
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Dec 15, 2015 20:18
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Shaggar posted:in this mythological universe where a bus that doesn't suck exists then yes im sure people use buses instead of sitting in traffic. people who are already in cars voluntarily get out of them and pay for a bus to go to places like York and Oxford, so I think you might be talking about this universe!
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Dec 15, 2015 20:20
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just lol if u can't comprehend using a combined system of private cars, commercial cars, light rail, commuter rail, rental bikes, and buses as makes the most sense
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Dec 15, 2015 20:22
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Shaggar posted:in this mythological universe where a bus that doesn't suck exists then yes im sure people use buses instead of sitting in traffic. it's a mythological universe with a population density higher than 40 people per sq. mile. i.e. the civilized world the thing is the buses don't have to not suck, they're still better than the alternative, which is sitting in traffic for an hour after work to get the half mile to the highway while your blood slowly boils in your veins.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:31
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sitting on a bus stuck in traffic is most definitely not better than sitting in a car stuck in traffic.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:32
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see, we give buses a ROW lane during rush hour. anyone parking in it gets towed immediately, and anyone driving in it gets a whopping fine. turns out enforcement is very effective, and at worst revenue neutral so buses don't sit in traffic
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Dec 15, 2015 20:33
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you can also fit the buses with a device to prioritize traffic lights for the buses to speed things up
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Dec 15, 2015 20:39
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what if a bus had cool helicorper rotors like a chinook and could fly + hover
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Dec 15, 2015 20:39
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Smythe posted:what if a bus had cool helicorper rotors like a chinook and could fly + hover they'd get fuckin' rekd on the streetcar lines
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Dec 15, 2015 20:41
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Smythe posted:what if a bus had cool helicorper rotors like a chinook and could fly + hover or a ramp at every intersection so it can jump over the traffic and not have to stop
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Dec 15, 2015 20:41
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Shaggar posted:sitting on a bus stuck in traffic is most definitely not better than sitting in a car stuck in traffic. wrongo
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Dec 15, 2015 20:42
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infernal machines posted:they'd get fuckin' rekd on the streetcar lines ok what if it was like the f35s vtol turbine thing. that would be epic Verdafolio posted:or a ramp at every intersection so it can jump over the traffic and not have to stop in soviet russia, bus jump over car
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Dec 15, 2015 20:44
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imagine a bus jumping over a bunch of flaming monster trucks. that would be so sick
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Dec 15, 2015 20:44
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fill the whole bus up with a giant engine. i bet it could go FTL
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Dec 15, 2015 20:45
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infernal machines posted:see, we give buses a ROW lane during rush hour. anyone parking in it gets towed immediately, and anyone driving in it gets a whopping fine. turns out enforcement is very effective, and at worst revenue neutral this works great on highways practically useless on surface streets (mta found a 15% improvement)
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Dec 15, 2015 20:58
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pointsofdata posted:people who are already in cars voluntarily get out of them and pay for a bus to go to places like York and Oxford, so I think you might be talking about this universe! intercity buses are a whole different ballgame than transit buses it's fairly obvious that people will pay for (some) intercity buses: the government hasn't had to acquire intercity bus corporations to keep the service alive.
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Dec 15, 2015 20:59
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this works great on highways is this mebes kuz new yorkers are fuckers of the highest order and probs block the bus non-stop while leaning out their window and shouting?
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Dec 15, 2015 21:01
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Smythe posted:is this mebes kuz new yorkers are fuckers of the highest order and probs block the bus non-stop while leaning out their window and shouting? it's partly this. it's not practical to use movable jersey barriers to enforce lanes the way they do on a highway, so people will sometimes block the bus lane. but it's more the problems we already discussed: dwell time, gridlock, fixed routes. buses on surface streets have insurmountable problems.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:02
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infernal machines posted:also, when the alternative is paying $30+ for parking and spending an hour in traffic just to get into/out of the city core during rush hour, people who can do otherwise will voluntarily take the bus. in fact they'll even pay double fare for express service on a bus. this is called a commuter bus, and people already ride those voluntarily
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Dec 15, 2015 21:04
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this works great on highways 15% is not "practically useless". these are things we have in toronto, i use them. they work, and they work better than a cab in the same traffic because of the ROW
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Dec 15, 2015 21:16
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this is called a commuter bus, and people already ride those voluntarily yes, that's the point. people do ride them voluntarily
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Dec 15, 2015 21:16
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commuter buses to move rich people in and out of city centers help with traffic, but they don't really change anything about the transportation network those commuters still use a car in their suburban home, and they still think of themselves as drivers first a commuter bus turns very few 2 car households into 1 car households. it neither creates nor assists the 0-car households.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:18
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Smythe posted:imagine a bus jumping over a bunch of flaming monster trucks. that would be so sick they do this already
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Dec 15, 2015 21:21
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infernal machines posted:15% is not "practically useless" a 15% improvement reported by a biased source, costing millions of dollars and extremely scarce road space
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Dec 15, 2015 21:21
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that 15% probably also came at a cost of 30% increased car traffic on the remaining lanes
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Dec 15, 2015 21:26
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Shaggar posted:sitting on a bus stuck in traffic is most definitely not better than sitting in a car stuck in traffic. shagger was wrong
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Dec 15, 2015 21:27
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Shaggar posted:that 15% probably also came at a cost of 30% increased car traffic on the remaining lanes that's fine, because the bus is moving significantly more people than each inconvenienced vehicle. that's the whole point actually.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:28
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mishaq posted:shagger was wrong maybe if you like sitting shoulder to shoulder with stinky people a bus is for you. cars are infinitely more comfortable.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:30
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Shaggar posted:maybe if you like sitting shoulder to shoulder with stinky people a bus is for you. cars are infinitely more comfortable. lol
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Dec 15, 2015 21:31
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infernal machines posted:that's fine, because the bus is moving significantly more people than each inconvenienced vehicle. that's the whole point actually. ok this is a fair point. 15% is a lot more than nothing. i wouldn't want to see the mta give up on express buses because the improvements are more modest than hoped for. but it doesn't change the picture for a person like shaggar. and there are lots of fuckin shaggars out there. 115% of way the gently caress too slow and unreliable is still too slow and unreliable
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Dec 15, 2015 21:33
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Shaggar posted:maybe if you like sitting shoulder to shoulder with stinky people a bus is for you. cars are infinitely more comfortable. if a bus/train car is totally empty, it's because there's a stinky person on board. so you're either shoulder to shoulder OR there's a horrifying stench. fortunately the combination of the two is very unlikely. herd instinct for the win i guess also reading the newspaper during your commute owns owns owns, even if you're standing on a bus while you do it.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:34
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that 15% increase is also still only between 2 points that aren't the ones you want to start at or go to and the bus is still smelly and cramped.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:34
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:if a bus/train car is totally empty, it's because there's a stinky person on board. so you're either shoulder to shoulder OR there's a horrifying stench. all of the buses are empty which makes the 15% increase pointless cause everyone is driving and you've made the cars less efficient.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:35
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Shaggar posted:that 15% increase is also still only between 2 points that aren't the ones you want to start at or go to and the bus is still smelly and cramped. the 2 points thing is something that actually can be fixed, and good bus systems fix it it's not impractical to have every single home and business in an area within walking distance of a bus stop, and many cities manage exactly that.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:36
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