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ImpAtom posted:Antasma was the antagonist of Dream Team. You mean the guy who shows up like twice outside of defeating him? And also they don't bring up how he looks similar to Cackletta for some reason?
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Dec 18, 2015 19:14
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People are actually complaining about Bowser being a villain in a Mario game? Christ. All that matters is, is the writing any good, and is the progression fun rather than tedious?
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Dec 18, 2015 19:16
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ImpAtom posted:So your complaint is merely that Bowser is the villain instead of a playable character. I mean, he wasn't playable outside of joke scenes in TTYD either and that was some good Bowser. SSS too.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:16
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Not a Children posted:People are actually complaining about Bowser being a villain in a Mario game? Christ. All that matters is, is the writing any good, and is the progression fun rather than tedious? The number of times Bowser has been the villain in Mario RPGs before recently was 1 out of 7.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:17
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Aurora posted:You mean the guy who shows up like twice outside of defeating him? Are you talking about Antasma? I don't see any similarities.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:19
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Aurora posted:I mean, he wasn't playable outside of joke scenes in TTYD either and that was some good Bowser. So your complaint is... that Bowser is being used but not in the very specific and immensely narrow way you want him to be used, which includes "is a reoccurring presence in the game" and "is possessed and becomes the final boss." Like you have yet to say why Bowser being the villain is bad except that Bowser is the villain and therefore it's bad? And also other villains don't count for whatever reason?
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Dec 18, 2015 19:19
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ImpAtom posted:So your complaint is... that Bowser is being used but not in the very specific and immensely narrow way you want him to be used, which includes "is a reoccurring presence in the game" and "is possessed and becomes the final boss." Mario RPGs typically haven't had Bowser as the final boss? I mean what is hard to understand here. Him and Antasma worked "together" and then Bowser just was like "yeah I used him whatever now I'm the best". I've also never really heard people be surprised or excited that Bowser was the final boss of Dream Team.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:23
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Aurora posted:Mario RPGs typically haven't had Bowser as the final boss? I mean what is hard to understand here. Him and Antasma worked "together" and then Bowser just was like "yeah I used him whatever now I'm the best". Boy do you look in the wrong places. (Also, I was really excited when I saw Bowser leave Antasma at the Mario Bros.'s mercy and establish himself as the "better villain" because holy poo poo was the opposite a trend in Mario RPGs for quite a while whenever a new villain would show up.)
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Dec 18, 2015 19:26
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Aurora posted:Mario RPGs typically haven't had Bowser as the final boss? I mean what is hard to understand here. Him and Antasma worked "together" and then Bowser just was like "yeah I used him whatever now I'm the best". I was surprised by him being the final boss after the first M&L had him as an amnesiac disciple to Popple for the entire game before he regained his memory just in time to be possessed, PiT making him a 2-bit side villain who does less than his baby self and BiS making him the de-facto hero of the story.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:27
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Aurora posted:Mario RPGs typically haven't had Bowser as the final boss? I mean what is hard to understand here. Him and Antasma worked "together" and then Bowser just was like "yeah I used him whatever now I'm the best". Superstar Saga had Bowletta who was literally a possessed Bowser who primarily fought using Bowser's attacks and was literally guarded by the Koopalings. Bowser's Inside Story had Dark Bowser. And even ignoring that why is Bowser being used inherently bad? Like everyone I know who has played the game has said it's genuinely good and it's biggest flaw is that the Paper Mario stuff is entirely a side-thought compared to the M&L stuff. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 19:27
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Fine, you got me, I'm just a bitter nerd who is disappointed in the recent offerings that Mario RPGs have given me.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:28
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Bowser being the antagonist isn't a problem in and of itself, but it's another way that recent Mario RPGs have trended towards being like stock Mario games rather than having their own identities like SMRPG through BiS.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:28
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Motto posted:Bowser being the villain isn't a problem in and of itself, but it's another way that recent Mario RPGs have trended towards being like stock Mario games rather than having their own identities like SMRPG through BiS. This is mostly how I feel, yes.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:29
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Motto posted:Bowser being the antagonist isn't a problem in and of itself, but it's another way that recent Mario RPGs have trended towards being like stock Mario games rather than having their own identities like SMRPG through BiS. Dream Team was filled with its own identity though? Like even trying to pretend that it's a trend when literally the last Mario RPG was 90% original characters is silly as hell.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:30
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Dec 18, 2015 19:31
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Dream Team definitely has a lot less character than the previous M&L games. I liked the multi-Luigi though.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:31
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ChaosArgate posted:I was surprised by him being the final boss after the first M&L had him as an amnesiac disciple to Popple for the entire game before he regained his memory just in time to be possessed, PiT making him a 2-bit side villain who does less than his baby self and BiS making him the de-facto hero of the story. Bowser being the secret head villain of Dream Team was actually kind of great because I thought I was smart when I pegged Antasma as likely to doublecross Bowser when the time was right. And apparently Bowser did too and just backstabbed Antasma first and I was completely blindsided by it. 
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Dec 18, 2015 19:32
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ImpAtom posted:Dream Team was filled with its own identity though? I'm not saying it applies to every game, but I think that's what people feel after what happened with Sticker Star and how that seems to be the "Paper Mario" that exists going forward as of Paper Jam. Motto fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 19:32
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bowser should have been a protagonist, i agree
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Dec 18, 2015 19:32
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Reading this conversation is like reading those rants from people crying about how Snape was a bad guy since it ruined their fanfictions where he just looks pretty and cries a lot. Bowser is better than that!
mycot fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 19:33
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Aurora posted:Bowser has been the antagonist of Sticker Star, Dream Team, and now Paper Jam Sticker Star was a paper Mario game, and Dream Teams antagonist was that nightmare bat guy. Even though Bowser was the final boss, the plot wasnt about him. greatn fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 19:33
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mycot posted:Reading this conversation is like reading those rants from people crying about how Snape was a bad guy since it ruined their fanfictions where he just looks pretty and cries a lot. How dare you.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:34
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Bowser owns
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Dec 18, 2015 19:37
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There's probably a lot of pretty crying Bowser fanart.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:39
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Complaining about Bowser is stupid anyways because Bowser owns and he's the greatest Nintendo bad guy ever. (Hades from KIU is a very close second though)
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Dec 18, 2015 19:42
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How does the Mario RPG fandom compare to, say, the Final Fantasy fandom, in terms of complaints and arguments?
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Dec 18, 2015 19:45
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I think the more stock aspects of Paper Jam are due to it being a M&L game. A big reason why PM/TTYD bothered with making unique characters was so they could join you as Partners, and that doesn't happen in M&L games.
Motto fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 19:45
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Motto posted:I'm not saying it applies to every game, but I think that's what people feel after what happened with Sticker Star and how that seems to be the "Paper Mario" that exists going forward as of Paper Jam. The "Paper Mario" that exists is whatever people want it to be. People cling to one single line from an interview (and ignore the other context which was 'surveys showed people didn't care about plot in SPM"") to cling to the idea even though another Mario RPG came out that was almost entirely original characters and when it featured Bowser as the boss that was because Bowser was popular not because they didn't have another idea. (Because... they did and he was the focus of most of the game.) Saying "Paper Jam is bad because Bowser is the antagonist" is meaningless. "Paper Jam is bad because the writing is dull" or whatever would be fine but I'll also say that everyone I've spoken to who has played the game generally says it's a good game that, at worst, has Paper Mario kind of awkwardly bolted on.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:48
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greatn posted:The size of one world cafe in Peoria. I just had lunch there yesterday. 
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Dec 18, 2015 19:57
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M&L still gives various enemies dialogue and personality and introduced a lot of new characters and races. The bean bean people, the P'illo, the Block people, weird guys like the muscle brothers, popple, etc. Dream team was actually really good at calling back to all the weird characters from the other games by bringing them to the same vacation resort.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:58
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Electromax posted:I just had lunch there yesterday. I went up there last Christmas and it was loving closed.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:03
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Literally the only question of whether or not Bowser is being used well in one of the Mario RPGs is: does he talk? In Sticker Star he did not, and thus was bad. In all the others he does and is entertaining and thus is good. As long as he talks in Paper Jam (I assume he does) then I'm all in.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:04
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Regy Rusty posted:Literally the only question of whether or not Bowser is being used well in one of the Mario RPGs is: does he talk? In Sticker Star he did not, and thus was bad. In all the others he does and is entertaining and thus is good. As long as he talks in Paper Jam (I assume he does) then I'm all in. He does talk. I don't know to what extent, but I've seen one conversation he has with himself, his son and his paper son and it was fantastic.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:05
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ImpAtom posted:Superstar Saga had Bowletta who was literally a possessed Bowser who primarily fought using Bowser's attacks and was literally guarded by the Koopalings. People like Bowser's persona in the Mario RPG's, and would like to see him in a prominent role outside of just being the villain because Bowser As The Bad Guy is usually a less interesting story. Like, both the examples you gave are the culmination of a plot involving other villains, same with TTYD.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:08
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ChaosArgate posted:He does talk. I don't know to what extent, but I've seen one conversation he has with himself, his son and his paper son and it was fantastic. Then we're sittin' pretty.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:09
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Bowser and Paper Bowser spend a lot of time arguing over which one of them is cooler or which one the princess likes more, while Bowsers Jrs become BFFs.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:12
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Tender Bender posted:People like Bowser's persona in the Mario RPG's, and would like to see him in a prominent role outside of just being the villain because Bowser As The Bad Guy is usually a less interesting story. Like, both the examples you gave are the culmination of a plot involving other villains, same with TTYD. Pretty much this. Bowser is infinitely better when not the villian and i think whenever hes the bad guy its nintendo being lazy as poo poo because of nostalgia. A lot of the non bowser villians are unique and interesting. Bring back Wart.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:13
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Tender Bender posted:People like Bowser's persona in the Mario RPG's, and would like to see him in a prominent role outside of just being the villain because Bowser As The Bad Guy is usually a less interesting story. Like, both the examples you gave are the culmination of a plot involving other villains, same with TTYD. Why does Bowser being the villain mean he isn't going to have a personality? I mean from what I've seen he's pretty funny in Paper Jam. I guess I'm not really clear what people want? The dude's literally the archetypical villain and even in the games where he does good guy things it is because he's trying to be the villain again. That's the entire joke of his character. Tengames posted:Pretty much this. Bowser is infinitely better when not the villian.. When Bowser isn't the villain his plot is, in every case, "I want to be the villain again" and by the end he is in fact the villain again. There is no version of Bowser where he undergoes a deep introspective character development and becomes a non-villain character short of like comedy amnesia.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:14
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ChaosArgate posted:He does talk. I don't know to what extent, but I've seen one conversation he has with himself, his son and his paper son and it was fantastic. Both Bowser and Paper Bowser talk, and they do it fairly often. It's way more than in Sticker Star.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:15
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Tengames posted:Pretty much this. Bowser is infinitely better when not the villian and i think whenever hes the bad guy its nintendo being lazy as poo poo because of nostalgia. A lot of the non bowser villians are unique and interesting. Bring back Wart. Wart was onscreen for like 45 seconds 30 years ago and shoots bubbles at you
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Dec 18, 2015 20:17
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