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Maybe we interpreted the wounding rules wrong, I never felt in danger. Wait, does that mean that flaslight specialist in Only War is a viable choice? It just don't feel like a (heroic, meant for grwater things) guardsman fantasy without a trusty flaslight
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Dec 19, 2015 21:25
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there's variable setting rules for lasguns in only war, making a maximal shot more dangerous than a human-sized boltgun round against lightly-armoured targets
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Dec 19, 2015 22:11
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goatface posted:Why is the RT being shot at with lasguns? They have people for that sort of rabble. Any good RT is only personally shot at with a much higher class of gun. The RT is probably facing down another pompous, self-important personage of some kind yeah. That personage is for sure using a worthier gun but his people/rabble are probably using guns made by the lowest bidder  JcDent posted:Maybe we interpreted the wounding rules wrong, I never felt in danger. I can't speak for OW but since PCs go from encounter to encounter and might face serious numerical odds at times the humble flashlight might eventually wither them down. It's not really a case where taking up the opponents strategy is viable (unless the RT gets his own rabble involved ).
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Dec 19, 2015 22:23
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Lasguns are real beasts against lightly armored targets. Low level Acolytes and Guardsmen should both fear them, as lasguns are actually pretty versatile and devastating weapons - RT characters can laugh at them, but that's RT for you.
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Dec 19, 2015 22:24
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JcDent posted:Wait, does that mean that flaslight specialist in Only War is a viable choice? Once the sergeant shouts "get them" you can be hitting 1d10+9 without too much difficulty, which is pretty great for a weapon there's hundreds of millions of lying around and you're nigh-impossible to be denied.
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Dec 19, 2015 22:47
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goatface posted:Once the sergeant shouts "get them" you can be hitting 1d10+9 without too much difficulty, which is pretty great for a weapon there's hundreds of millions of lying around and you're nigh-impossible to be denied. The lasgun specialist talents (from Hammer of the Emperor) are also really good imo
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Dec 20, 2015 00:35
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Basically, as long as you're in your unit with your buddies and under your command structure, your lasguns will be as terrifying as any sort of massed fire should be. You won't kill any tanks (you have heavies for that), but you will chew through anything that counts as infantry. Veteran guard in OW are scary.
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Dec 20, 2015 00:47
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It emulates tabletop well. Barring ogryn/heavy cybernetics shenanigans you will never be as tough as a space marine but you can equal and outdamage them at the ranged game.
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Dec 20, 2015 01:01
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Peztopiary posted:Space combat in RT is fun if your group likes that kind of thing. The rules are decent and the system works, but if you're not interested in tactical positioning and role-playing the bridge crew it drags pretty quick. One of my favorite gaming memories is when my Explorator weaponized a promethium refinery that was in constant danger of exploding underneath us and used it to fight a crystal behemoth in space. All that kept us alive was our faith in the Omnisiah and hilariously poor rolls on the GMs part. The capital ship we brought to the fight couldn't roll under an 80 though, so it evened out. Our ship is transport class so maybe that's the problem, but so far if we went with rules as (apparently) written every space combat would be decided in the first round one way or another. Two lightly armed and armoured ships (2 guns, 20 armour, 1 void shield) will fight forever and do nothing and if there's more than one ship then combat is "one ship dies per round" because one ship pops the void shield and the next one does a salvo and it's over. It just seems super binary between nothing can happen or one mistake and it's over. Again though the solution might be "don't have a transport ship" but if that's the best you can get on your roll and it locks you out of doing space things then those rules need to be addressed instead. Of course the other option is that it all works fine and we just end up in hilariously bad situations which is also 150% possible.
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Dec 20, 2015 01:18
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Peztopiary posted:*edit* Basically space combat owns in RT and if you think otherwise I'd be curious as to which parts were giving you trouble.
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Dec 20, 2015 02:24
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Macrocannon effectiveness is very much based on how good your gun crew / gun master is, Lances to a lesser extent. So if you're a really good shot then Macrocannons are definitely better, if not so good then a lance may be useful. Lances are much better at orbital strikes though.
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Dec 20, 2015 02:30
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I don't think we were using the space combat rules at all accurately, but the last space-battle (of the bands to the death) my RT players were in they came out with 2-and-a-half more ships than they went in with through judicious use of pre-battle sabotage and boarding actions, combined with making friends with the Spice Marines because they had the scariest ship. And yeah, I think the RT in that game was the squishiest character with only 8 DR in most locations, the combat characters had 10-13 DR depending on location. Also relevant that the RT's armor was a sleeveless v-neck suit of Noise Marine power armor that he salvaged and had resized, sleeveless because one of the Eldar farseers managed to shear off both arms with a singing spear during the acquisition. I miss running rogue trader, haven't been able to run in weeks what with everyone's christmas season work schedules.
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Dec 20, 2015 02:37
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EthanSteele posted:Our ship is transport class so maybe that's the problem, but so far if we went with rules as (apparently) written every space combat would be decided in the first round one way or another. Transports aren't particularly well-suited for combat, except that one clipper from Into The Storm with some retrofitting anyway. Doesn't mean they're useless though, just that you want to avoid open battle (unless your crew has sick skills) and focus on other sneaky shenanigans. hard counter fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Dec 20, 2015 |
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Dec 20, 2015 03:02
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I believe that's the one we have, Orion-class or whatever. We've tweaked spacetime to make it work for us and to be fun for us (which is the important thing), but it would be nice if the book worked!
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Dec 20, 2015 05:17
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goatface posted:Basically, as long as you're in your unit with your buddies and under your command structure, your lasguns will be as terrifying as any sort of massed fire should be. You won't kill any tanks (you have heavies for that), but you will chew through anything that counts as infantry. Also the Long Las is pretty much always scary at pretty much all levels of play. Pretty much any time you put a weapon with the accurate trait in the hands of a skilled shooter suddenly it becomes a lot harder to soak a laser shot when it can do 3d10 damage and has felling(4). At that point you can do some real damage to light vehicles if you get in side or rear shots
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Dec 20, 2015 06:59
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at 2500exp (well, a little after that, have to buy the ability) guardsmen can slap Accurate on lascannons, autocannons on single shot, and krak missiles. Or, you know, every single squad member could have a free multilaser. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Dec 20, 2015 |
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Dec 20, 2015 07:12
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EthanSteele posted:Our ship is transport class so maybe that's the problem, but so far if we went with rules as (apparently) written every space combat would be decided in the first round one way or another. Two lightly armed and armoured ships (2 guns, 20 armour, 1 void shield) will fight forever and do nothing and if there's more than one ship then combat is "one ship dies per round" because one ship pops the void shield and the next one does a salvo and it's over. It just seems super binary between nothing can happen or one mistake and it's over. Again though the solution might be "don't have a transport ship" but if that's the best you can get on your roll and it locks you out of doing space things then those rules need to be addressed instead. Of course the other option is that it all works fine and we just end up in hilariously bad situations which is also 150% possible. Another big problem I had (besides weapon balance, and that one light cruiser that apparently can't damage anything at all gave me a really bad feeling about the state of balance in general) is the fundamental problem of having a party of 4-6 people and one spaceship. What is there to do? It's not very satisfying if all you get to do as a player is occasionally make some roll that anyone else could do too. When you're fighting with your characters everyone gets to pick how to move and who to shoot but with the spaceship it's only really one person who in the end gets to decide that at a time. Elukka fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Dec 20, 2015 |
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Dec 20, 2015 10:58
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Ronwayne posted:Or, you know, every single squad member could have a free multilaser. regiment rules for the Goto 117th
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Dec 20, 2015 11:04
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Elukka posted:Another big problem I had (besides weapon balance, and that one light cruiser that apparently can't damage anything at all gave me a really bad feeling about the state of balance in general) is the fundamental problem of having a party of 4-6 people and one spaceship. What is there to do? It's not very satisfying if all you get to do as a player is occasionally make some roll that anyone else could do too. When you're fighting with your characters everyone gets to pick how to move and who to shoot but with the spaceship it's only really one person who in the end gets to decide that at a time. Technically, they have stations and each class has about a command or two they can execute to make the ship ship harder. I think. I don't remember much. God drat it, FFG, pls fix it. I'm also not a fan how the space combat abstract sabotage raids/boarding actions, but I guess you can't really switch between spess battle time frames and individual combat.
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Dec 20, 2015 11:26
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EthanSteele posted:Our ship is transport class so maybe that's the problem, but so far if we went with rules as (apparently) written every space combat would be decided in the first round one way or another. Two lightly armed and armoured ships (2 guns, 20 armour, 1 void shield) will fight forever and do nothing and if there's more than one ship then combat is "one ship dies per round" because one ship pops the void shield and the next one does a salvo and it's over. It just seems super binary between nothing can happen or one mistake and it's over. Again though the solution might be "don't have a transport ship" but if that's the best you can get on your roll and it locks you out of doing space things then those rules need to be addressed instead. Of course the other option is that it all works fine and we just end up in hilariously bad situations which is also 150% possible. Ethan, you guys might want to look into some of the common space combat house rules (like these; here's a version from this thread). They should make medium-to-high armor ships a bit more durable (especially against heavily-armed opponents) while reducing the swingy-ness slightly. Also, unless I'm gravely misremembering, void shields come back up at the beginning of each ship's turn, not just the turn of the ship they're protecting. That means they apply independently against every ship that shoots at you (unless they component is damaged or otherwise inoperable). This is a change from Battlefleet Gothic that I believe is intended to increase the toughness of individual ships, since losing a single ship is trivial in BFG but probably devastating in RT. I'm way behind on y'all's campaign now but hey, it's pretty fun to follow. Good luck with it. JcDent posted:Technically, they have stations and each class has about a command or two they can execute to make the ship ship harder. I think. I don't remember much. I'm pretty sure this is what Elukka is referring to: The person who commands the ship makes all the important decisions and the other players are reduced to making "I'm helping!" rolls. There's not a lot of strategy to putting out fires or keeping up morale.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:00
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Ship turns should be a group decision. It generally just turns into "which of these tasks is the most important and should be done by the explorator" with everyone else filling in the gaps.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:23
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:This is a change from Battlefleet Gothic that I believe is intended to increase the toughness of individual ships, since losing a single ship is trivial in BFG but probably devastating in RT. And let us not forget that on BFG terms, the ships in main book are basically squadron trash. goatface posted:Ship turns should be a group decision. It generally just turns into "which of these tasks is the most important and should be done by the explorator" with everyone else filling in the gaps. My group was RT (me) and then Xenos all the way down. Yeah  I like the idea of main book classes, because they look like basic dudes found in every RT outing, and each has an important role (and a pity that it would be impractical for all of them to be played by actual peoples). The other classes are somewhat crazy.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:29
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goatface posted:Ship turns should be a group decision. It generally just turns into "which of these tasks is the most important and should be done by the explorator" with everyone else filling in the gaps. There's also the issue of ships hitting a critical mass of PCs- if you have 3+ PCs on each ship, they're going to be hilariously effective. Less than that and you're going to have problems.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:29
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:I'm pretty sure this is what Elukka is referring to: The person who commands the ship makes all the important decisions and the other players are reduced to making "I'm helping!" rolls. There's not a lot of strategy to putting out fires or keeping up morale. Navigators and Psykers got independent shipboard actions in the navis primer, the success of those actions lead to things like the entirety of the enemies' shooting phase getting ignored (emergency warp jump) or an enemy crew facing a psychic attack (flash fire). There's options for hit & run operations or fighter/bomber missions for other people but those work best if you have the components. IMHO there's enough choice that players can decide which I'm helping roll contributes best ontop of deciding as a group the ship's maneuvers but like any system there's room for improvement.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:40
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:Ethan, you guys might want to look into some of the common space combat house rules (like these; here's a version from this thread). They should make medium-to-high armor ships a bit more durable (especially against heavily-armed opponents) while reducing the swingy-ness slightly. Also, unless I'm gravely misremembering, void shields come back up at the beginning of each ship's turn, not just the turn of the ship they're protecting... Nah, that's wrong. Your shields come up once per round. Unless you've got multiple layers, then it's once per round for all of them. So the classic one-two punch to be effective in combat is lances then cannons. Or vice versa if you can figure out the enemy ship well enough to target a specific component. It's specifically setup so that if you're outnumbered by more than about two you should be flying away. Cannons are better, but it tends to be a case by case basis. It also breaks down if you get too many ships, unless you're willing to do quite a lot of abstraction (which, it's roleplaying, abstraction is kind of the name of the game).
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Dec 21, 2015 00:54
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Peztopiary posted:Nah, that's wrong. Your shields come up once per round. Unless you've got multiple layers, then it's once per round for all of them. So the classic one-two punch to be effective in combat is lances then cannons. Or vice versa if you can figure out the enemy ship well enough to target a specific component. It's specifically setup so that if you're outnumbered by more than about two you should be flying away. Cannons are better, but it tends to be a case by case basis. It also breaks down if you get too many ships, unless you're willing to do quite a lot of abstraction (which, it's roleplaying, abstraction is kind of the name of the game). Core Rulebook 220-221 posted:Void shields function by absorbing incoming hits before they can be resolved against their target. Whenever a ship chooses to fire on another ship during its turn, the target ship’s void shields (assuming it has any!) will cancel a number of incoming hits equal to the strength of the shields. In other words, if a ship has one void shield, after an attacker determines the total number of hits going against the ship, that number of hits is reduced by one. It does not matter if the hits are from lances or macrobatteries. This seems to support my interpretation, but I know RT's rules organization is a giant mess. Is there another version elsewhere? I know BFG handles it differently.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:26
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Shields are up for every ship that fires at you.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:53
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I think there's opportunities for co-ordinated fleet fire though, where salvos from both ships are resolved against one set of void shields. I'd have to consult the rulebook though.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:02
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Yeah I remembered wrong. I apologize.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:07
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Peztopiary posted:Yeah I remembered wrong. I apologize. Hey, no worries. The fact that I doubted myself with the citation says a lot for the ruleset's intelligibility. hard counter posted:I think there's opportunities for co-ordinated fleet fire though, where salvos from both ships are resolved against one set of void shields. I'd have to consult the rulebook though. Maybe in Battlefleet Koronus or something like that, but I'm pretty sure there aren't any in the core book. You could definitely manufacture a situation in which they'd be worthwhile, though.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:11
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:Maybe in Battlefleet Koronus or something like that, but I'm pretty sure there aren't any in the core book. You could definitely manufacture a situation in which they'd be worthwhile, though. Yeah it's in BK and the ability is called Massed Fire and can only be performed by ships operating together as a squadron. It's a bit more complicated than two separate attacks against one set of shields but ultimately serves a similar purpose.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:25
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hard counter posted:Yeah it's in BK and the ability is called Massed Fire and can only be performed by ships operating together as a squadron. It's a bit more complicated than two separate attacks against one set of shields but ultimately serves a similar purpose. How deep in RT campaign must you be for squadron fire to become a thing?
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Dec 21, 2015 09:53
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JcDent posted:How deep in RT campaign must you be for squadron fire to become a thing? It depends - have you/your players built a ship that can board and capture another ship three times its size in one combat round? if so then every ship encounter with an imperial vessal will basically be another ship for thier fleet. The Ommnisah's Shield, captained by Praise Be The Emperor For He Is Mighty Bashura (and staff officers) was terrifying!
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Dec 21, 2015 10:44
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hard counter posted:Yeah it's in BK and the ability is called Massed Fire and can only be performed by ships operating together as a squadron. It's a bit more complicated than two separate attacks against one set of shields but ultimately serves a similar purpose. We just used the Massed Fire rules 2 sessions ago. I think they worked rather well without making anything particularly complex.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:18
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:regiment rules for the Goto 117th Regiment Rules/Creation are just cool as hell in general. Why yes, I would like to give everyone aptitudes in Ballistic Skill no matter what and have the favored weapon be the Long-Las. Or make all-Ogryn regiments complete with Commissars!
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Dec 21, 2015 16:52
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I imagine ogryn reg commissars are more like rage/stress camp counselors complete with stereotypical soothing voice.
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Dec 21, 2015 18:34
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LuiCypher posted:Regiment Rules/Creation are just cool as hell in general. Why yes, I would like to give everyone aptitudes in Ballistic Skill no matter what and have the favored weapon be the Long-Las. Or make all-Ogryn regiments complete with Commissars! Well, it would be logical for crack shots to favor sniper rifles and vice-versa, I guess
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Dec 21, 2015 19:08
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JcDent posted:How deep in RT campaign must you be for squadron fire to become a thing? Depends on what class of craft you rolled at the beginning. Squadron rules also simplify the npc side of battle so it's plausible for a couple of pirate raiders to try and poach an RT's cruiser or whatever as an earlier encounter.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:28
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Ronwayne posted:I imagine ogryn reg commissars are more like rage/stress camp counselors complete with stereotypical soothing voice. Lots of glove puppets and "ooo The Emperor will get a bit miffed if you boys don't get in that foxhole and clear it" "noo daddy noo"
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Dec 21, 2015 19:35
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EthanSteele posted:Lots of glove puppets and "ooo The Emperor will get a bit miffed if you boys don't get in that foxhole and clear it" "noo daddy noo" I read this as 'Nooo daddy-o, and now i want someone to run a game with a bunch of beatnik ogryns.
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Dec 21, 2015 19:59
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