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Melian Dialogue posted:Makes sense, 22 years ago a bad thing happened. Sorry Nepal, guess you're not getting any earthquake support, CI doesn't like the military because too many of his bully jocks in high school went to RMC. Yeah guys, we need to send our CF OUT TO FIGHT DISTRESS OK cool were back home now. Back to raping our female comrades
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Dec 19, 2015 22:24
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What struck me (going through the case precedents) was this one:quote:R. v. Caprarie-Melville 1998 Carswell Yukon 106 (Yukon Territory Supreme Court): Is that sentence normal for wilfully killing someone? If he had instead fired a gun into the crowd (or taken some other equally-lethal, non-motor-vehicle-involving action) to rescue his friend, would the sentence have been similar? Somebody fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Dec 19, 2015 22:29
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Dec 19, 2015 22:36
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I guess what a lot of this argument's been about is how society is systematically reckless to the results of the actions taken behind the wheel of a car, and how that's used to excuse actions that result in death. You would think it would be the responsibility of the society (or government, etc) to ensure that operators of machinery with such high killing potential would be educated enough on that killing potential not to be reckless of it. Somebody fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Dec 19, 2015 22:51
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Coolwhoami posted:How long would be sufficient here? His entire life? Would your assessment here change if alcohol was not even potentially a factor? That you air quote accident implies to me that you believe it was not, do you believe this was deliberate? If so, what is an accident, then? Not sure. More than 2 years. I don't think it was deliberate, but I think there are degrees to an accident, just as there are degrees to a willfully criminal act, and I am more than ok punishing people based on the extent of the damage they cause as much as whether or not it was intentional. Cars are dangerous. There's a real laxness to how we treat vehicle accidents. Like oh well you just had a little fender bender that killed someone, no big deal, could happen to anyone. Kind of what Baronjutter was talking about in terms of how little care we put into the operation of these really dangerous tools. If I shot into a crowd "by accident" and killed somebody, I would expect to be treated more harshly than to serve a marginal jail term, even if it wasn't at all intentional. (I'm not saying anything about the laws as they are, I'm talking about the laws as I would like them to be.)
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Dec 19, 2015 22:59
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Dec 19, 2015 23:41
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Correct me if I'm wrong, jordan/jm20, but I read your argument as something along the lines of: society treats motor vehicles with too much deference/casualness for the risks and harms they pose (mostly because of their utility/necessity in large parts of the country compared to, say, firearms) and that sentencing for vehicle-related deaths should be higher across the board in order to encourage drivers to take more care on the road? To speak in mens rea terms, a broader view of what constitutes "they should have known that driving like that would lead to X" recklessness, and since they should have known, treat them as if it was knowingly done?
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Dec 20, 2015 00:03
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that's a bit wrong headed. Civil court is loving expensive. If there behaviour meets the marked departure standard of the Reasonable Prudent Driver, then I think that it's proper that the driver gets criminal charges. I think the issue with cars is that everyone uses them. familiarity breeds laziness and carelessness. However, a gun is something that isn't used on nearly as much occasions and I guess people should be much more concious of the harm that they may happen. the hard truth is that finding a proper sentence for dangerous driving causing bodily harm/ death is loving hard . There's a ton of aggravating and mitigating factors in deciding what the proper sentence should be. All of this makes researching case law for the proper sentence a huge pain the rear end. Somebody fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2015 03:57
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Dallan Invictus posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, jordan/jm20, but I read your argument as something along the lines of: society treats motor vehicles with too much deference/casualness for the risks and harms they pose (mostly because of their utility/necessity in large parts of the country compared to, say, firearms) and that sentencing for vehicle-related deaths should be higher across the board in order to encourage drivers to take more care on the road? That's pretty much it yeah. What really bugs me about that sentence is actually the short ban from driving.
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Dec 20, 2015 04:09
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would you rather he go through some re-educative driving school or some such?
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Dec 20, 2015 04:39
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Jordan7hm posted:That's pretty much it yeah. Longer driving prohibitions can be given out under provincial traffic safety legislation. That's a separate manner from a criminal proceeding.
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Dec 20, 2015 04:39
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2015 04:47
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That lifetime bans from driving aren't handed out more often in this country / society is pretty pathetic. It took my own father nearly 35 years worth of annual DUI suspensions, multiple totaled vehicles on stationary objects, and a woman jumping out of his car while high as a kite, before they finally took it away for good. That he never killed someone is a miracle, and it should have been blindingly obvious to the justice system much earlier that continuing to return his license would never have a positive outcome. But we view driving the same way Americans view gun ownership, so good luck pushing driving ban legislation on the retards we have to call our countrymen. 
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Dec 21, 2015 02:14
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Rime posted:That lifetime bans from driving aren't handed out more often in this country / society is pretty pathetic. It took my own father nearly 35 years worth of annual DUI suspensions, multiple totaled vehicles on stationary objects, and a woman jumping out of his car while high as a kite, before they finally took it away for good. That he never killed someone is a miracle, and it should have been blindingly obvious to the justice system much earlier that continuing to return his license would never have a positive outcome. You're pretty much paraplegic without a car. I don't even know what I'd do if I lost my license. If this was like Switzerland, Japan, Holland or some other country with a decent transit system it would be much easier to make do without a car.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:23
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Kraftwerk posted:You're pretty much paraplegic without a car Inasmuch as you can lead a fairly normal life that might require a bit more advance planning and be a bit more inconvenient at times, yes. EDIT: I'm pretty sure if I surveyed paraplegic people, they'd say they'd rather have working legs and no drivers license than visa versa, but that's really just a guess. PT6A fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 02:25
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PT6A posted:Inasmuch as you can lead a fairly normal life that might require a bit more advance planning and be a bit more inconvenient at times, yes. Sure, if you live in urban centres like you and me.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:27
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Playstation 4 posted:Sure, if you live in urban centres like you and me. So if say someone lives in a rural area, but is for example a dangerous drunk driver who gets caught, should lenience be shown when it comes to taking away their licence?
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Dec 21, 2015 02:29
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Playstation 4 posted:Sure, if you live in urban centres like you and me. To be fair, I didn't end up where I am now by sheer accident. It's almost like I planned my life so I'm not constantly tethered to an automobile...
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Dec 21, 2015 02:30
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PT6A posted:To be fair, I didn't end up where I am now by sheer accident. It's almost like I planned my life so I'm not constantly tethered to an automobile... Would you say they need to bootstraps themselves into cities as teenagers, because you did it?
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Dec 21, 2015 02:33
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CLAM DOWN posted:So if say someone lives in a rural area, but is for example a dangerous drunk driver who gets caught, should lenience be shown when it comes to taking away their licence? They seem to judging by my neighbors
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Dec 21, 2015 02:37
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Playstation 4 posted:Would you say they need to bootstraps themselves into cities as teenagers, because you did it? I've moved across the country twice as an adult, so no?
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Dec 21, 2015 02:41
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Ikantski posted:They seem to judging by my neighbors Drunk driving is way easier and, thus, less dangerous in rural areas. You don't need to drive on high speed roads, you don't need to negotiate multiple lanes, just keep the yellow line on your left and the white line on your right. You still shouldn't do it, but I'd way rather drive at 0.12 in a rural area than at 0.08 in the city, both of which I wouldn't and shouldn't do.
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Dec 21, 2015 02:45
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PT6A posted:Drunk driving is way easier and, thus, less dangerous in rural areas. You don't need to drive on high speed roads, you don't need to negotiate multiple lanes, just keep the yellow line on your left and the white line on your right. You still shouldn't do it, but I'd way rather drive at 0.12 in a rural area than at 0.08 in the city, both of which I wouldn't and shouldn't do.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:13
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PT6A posted:To be fair, I didn't end up where I am now by sheer accident. It's almost like I planned my life so I'm not constantly tethered to an automobile... Yeah I'll never get a job in FIRE so there's no way I can live that hip urbanite downtown Toronto life unless I take a significant pay cut working 3 service industry jobs and living in a lovely Parkdale place with like 4 room mates. gently caress that. Once I get well situated I'm gonna live in the nice high rises near Ft. York Blvd somewhere.
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Dec 21, 2015 03:18
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Anybody who gets a lifetime ban from driving in this country is basically being done a favour. Driving is incredibly expensive and most people are made to believe that without their cars they are nothing. HTH
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Dec 21, 2015 05:23
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I have to buy a car to get to work, as the alternative is riding a motorcycle in January and it really sucks. Almost made it to 26 car-free.  Since my primary passtime most of the year is climbing very remote mountains, putting all that gear on a motorcycle was also starting to really suck.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:28
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Playstation 4 posted:Would you say they need to bootstraps themselves into cities as teenagers, because you did it? Wow, drat!! You really blew him up and showed how extremely problematic he is.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:39
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DariusLikewise posted:Anybody who gets a lifetime ban from driving in this country is basically being done a favour. Driving is incredibly expensive and most people are made to believe that without their cars they are nothing. HTH No it's not expensive, you're just not being paid enough. Driving in Singapore is expensive as you have to spend north of 20 grand on a certificate of entitlement before you can even be permitted to buy a car. The only things expensive about driving in Canada is the racketeering the insurance companies get up to. I rather enjoy being able to reach my destination in a timely manner on my own terms and with the comfort of a heating system that lets me get there without worrying about the weather. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 06:04
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Lol there license is hardly the cost worth bitching about. Congestion toll the gently caress out of Vancouver
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Dec 21, 2015 06:09
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Cultural Imperial posted:Lol there license is hardly the cost worth bitching about. I forgot about the congestion tolls. They got that in London too. Where I get gouged and raped without lube is the 407. I spend 400 a month on it to get to work because the 401 would take an impossibly long time.
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Dec 21, 2015 06:11
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That's not it. It costs like 80k to buy a Honda civic
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Dec 21, 2015 06:13
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Kraftwerk posted:Where I get gouged and raped without lube is the 407. I spend 400 a month on it to get to work because the 401 would take an impossibly long time. Sounds like you're paying for the convenience and the value you place on your time (the system works). If you want to save money, take transit.
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Dec 21, 2015 06:16
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Kraftwerk posted:No it's not expensive I agree. We should do like denmark and slap a 150% tax on new cars.
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Dec 21, 2015 06:38
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infernal machines posted:Sounds like you're paying for the convenience and the value you place on your time (the system works). If you want to save money, take transit. Can't do that. It wouldn't be possible to get to my office via transit. I also can't visit clients without a car either. My employer subsidizes my car use. I can tell you a lot of opportunities and great memories in my life would never have happened if I didn't have my car. Do any of you people trash talking cars even drive? The anti car bias in this thread is not rooted in reality unless you live in an urban core somewhere where you can walk, bike or take transit to where you need to go. It's horribly impractical for those of us who have to work in Brampton or Mississauga. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 06:41
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I've lived and worked in both Brampton and Toronto, including commuting daily to Brampton from Toronto for work and regular onsite client work throughout the GTA. All without having a car. It's possible, and not even especially difficult in most cases. Don't get me wrong it's much easier if you live and work in the core of TO, but within the GTA the regional and local transit netwoks make it entirely feasible to live and work without a vehicle. The rural outlands of course, are not so lucky. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 06:51
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Kraftwerk posted:Can't do that. It wouldn't be possible to get to my office via transit. Even some you can aren't really practical because you'd have to take five transfers or it'd take hours and hours longer. I've been lucky with being able to live within walking or transit distance to all my jobs. I know that def wasn't an option for my father when I was growing up though. He had some pretty gnarly driving commutes, but for fun I punched in what it would be like had he taken transit instead. Like $600/month in transit fares and 3 - 4.5 hour commutes each way  . This is versus 25 min to an hour of driving.And this would be AFTER Durham made their transit system slightly less batshit insane and you could get to a Go Station in a non-stupid period of time. People who bitch about the TTC have no idea what bad is. When I was a kid sometimes you'd be stuck at the GO Station for two hours because the train would get in just after the bus left and the one at the top of the next hour (a bunch of routes were only once an hour) just decided to not show up. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 06:52
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Kraftwerk posted:My employer subsidizes my car use. Wait, so what is the problem? You're paid for the use of your vehicle, you pay to avoid traffic by using the 407, this is pretty much how this should work. If the 407 were free it would be as busy as the 401, which you don't use because of the traffic.
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Dec 21, 2015 07:03
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CLAM DOWN posted:So if say someone lives in a rural area, but is for example a dangerous drunk driver who gets caught, should lenience be shown when it comes to taking away their licence? I know "should" isn't "is", but this happens all the time. If you need your license to avoid being unemployed, they'll be less likely to suspend it because the social cost of unemployed-you is higher than employed-you-that-doesn't-kill-anyone-else Rime posted:That lifetime bans from driving aren't handed out more often in this country / society is pretty pathetic. It took my own father nearly 35 years worth of annual DUI suspensions, multiple totaled vehicles on stationary objects, and a woman jumping out of his car while high as a kite, before they finally took it away for good. That he never killed someone is a miracle, and it should have been blindingly obvious to the justice system much earlier that continuing to return his license would never have a positive outcome. Addiction's a hell of a drug . Sorry to hear it man. Also how on earth do you do that and avoid dangerous offender status?
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Dec 21, 2015 14:42
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Kraftwerk posted:Can't do that. It wouldn't be possible to get to my office via transit. I also can't visit clients without a car either. My employer subsidizes my car use. I have a car, I just don't use it on a regular basis (perhaps once or twice a week) and it would be pretty easy to replace most of those trips with transit, and definitely more cost-effective to replace the others with car2go or (if I didn't have a license) a taxi, since I only legitimately need a car perhaps once every two or three months.
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Dec 21, 2015 15:47
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When you don't have a car you generally choose to live somewhere near a transit hub. People with cara don't factor that in to where they choose to live so they don't understand how someone can live and work without a car.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:24
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