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BJPaskoff posted:I'll never get the love/hate relationship nerds have with references. In this thread alone there are people saying the movie was lazy because of things that mirrored ANH, and people getting defensive and saying those ANH similarities don't exist. They do exist, and they made the story feel more familiar to us. I don't expect 8 and 9 to have so many similarities now that they've established that they can do right by Star Wars fans. It's not that the similarities don't exist, but that they are vague enough similarities to apply to a whole lot of movies. For example, attacking the Death Star is much more reminiscent of the fight in ROTJ, not ANH, because the latter doesn't involve a ground team that's trying to disable the shields so the Rebels can attack. quote:
It's bad because the movie up until then is about finding Luke Skywalker. In ANH the plot from the very beginning is "get the Death Star plans to the Rebellion and stop the Death Star", whereas in this movie it's "find Luke Skywalker oh but also we have a Death Star so we need to take care of that too".
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Dec 21, 2015 21:33
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Red posted:
Is that guy actually meant to be Ackbar, or was he just a random Mon Calamari? Ditto for whether that Sullustan dude was Nien Nunb or not.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:36
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Timeless Appeal posted:You know, not to be too fan fictiony, but missed opportunity with dialogue... Han: Kept you waiting, huh? *reaches for lightsaber* Kylo: It's not over yet! *STAB* Han: You're pretty good.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:37
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Empress Theonora posted:Is that guy actually meant to be Ackbar, or was he just a random Mon Calamari? Those are indeed Ackbar and Nunb. Same actors, too.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:39
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Red posted:Those are indeed Ackbar and Nunb. Same actors, too. That rules.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:39
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My only question after seeing this is: during that scene on the Falcon with the The Raid dudes, were they speaking Indonesian or some made-up space language?
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Dec 21, 2015 21:48
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Popping in to reiterate that the sountrack gets better and better each listen.
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Dec 21, 2015 21:49
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ZypherIM posted:The thing that it feels like you're purposely not saying is that almost every one of those they take that key piece where you go "oh like from ANH" and does something a bit different from it. Also they pull poo poo from ESB and ROTJ. I don't understand your basic point. Yes, the plot structure was mostly the same, and even some of the particulars were the same, but some of them were different. 
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Dec 21, 2015 21:56
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Beyond sane knolls posted:My only question after seeing this is: during that scene on the Falcon with the The Raid dudes, were they speaking Indonesian or some made-up space language? 
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Dec 21, 2015 22:00
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Red posted:True, but Ren could have just confronted him, and ordered him to get back to work. Instead, they stared at each other before Ren moved on. Ren has no real ability to lead. Yeah I think the real story here is that Ren is definitely strong in the force, however he is untrained, but he was also chosen for his position. What better way to strike at Luke than to have him suffer at the hands of his own student? We definitely see Ren in a familiar position, he is a lone Force user among First Order officers who have little to no respect for him and the only reason they obey him is because they fear him flying off the handle. You can definitely see this when he is destroying the room and the two Stormtroopers outside back away like "Great here he goes again throwing a tantrum." This is definitely something that has been used in other Star Wars media, namely the Jedi Academy game. Ren is the young impressionable boy who wants so badly to be a Jedi but for all the wrong reasons. He has no interest in doing whats right or helping people, he only wants the power and to forever have his likeness in statues. At his core is a good person but he finds the light side to be the hard way to go about things. Why try to fix every little problem when you can bring the entire galaxy to heel in one fell swoop? In a lot of ways he is exactly like his grandfather before him.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:09
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computer parts posted:It's bad because the movie up until then is about finding Luke Skywalker. In ANH the plot from the very beginning is "get the Death Star plans to the Rebellion and stop the Death Star", whereas in this movie it's "find Luke Skywalker oh but also we have a Death Star so we need to take care of that too". On the one hand I thought this was more Abrams "jam in a new plot alongside the old one" insecure scriptwriting. On the other hand, I thought that was actually interesting, because Luke is absent from his own story. There are a ton of moments where I feel like I've seen this before, but Luke's absence is palpable. The TIE fighter chase in the Falcon, the trench run, the confrontation on the catwalk over the pit. These are Luke's adventures but he's missing. Rey thinks she needs to go find him, but actually they did just fine. Luke isn't here, but we didn't need him after all. I think Abrams is walking a fine line between making it about the new characters and their role in the saga that's being handed down to their generation, and making it about Star Wars as a franchise. I was ready to be turned off about overly self-referential subtext, but I like the characters so much and they seem so much like a natural outgrowth of the prequel and original trilogies that I don't care. Unlike Kirk, Spock and Nemo from Trek 2009, Rey, Finn and Kylo feel like their own characters who are organic to the story. Instead of the same old people, but different, who violently flush the old canon down a space toilet, these are new people, but the same, who think they need the old canon and then discover that they don't.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:11
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Arglebargle III posted:I don't understand your basic point. Yes, the plot structure was mostly the same, and even some of the particulars were the same, but some of them were different. The post you were talking to said quote:There are a lot of subtle callbacks in specific shots or props to ANH but it seems like a lot of the story beat things people are talking about being referential are just kind of classic Hero's Journey plot points. The pluck from obscurity, the death of the mentor, the call to action against evil, etc etc etc The main discussion going on was about how TFA is cribbing from ANH. I grabbed your post in particular because I felt it really summed up the discussion. My point: things that look like they're cribbing from ANH mostly are used in a way that subverts your expectations, or are just a fast reference/fan service. A lot of the poo poo that people are talking about are used in a callback way that has no similarity beyond that. Most of the stuff that actually makes it feel like ANH come from the hero's journey line, with a dash of callbacks to season it star wars. Prime examples: Kylo Ren/Vader opening, then how the character progresses is a giant subversion based on the callback. The Cantina scene's only similarity is that they're looking for transport in a bar with aliens.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:15
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aBagorn posted:Popping in to reiterate that the sountrack gets better and better each listen. Honestly the more I listen to it the more I think that John Williams did the "evolution" of the soundtrack even better than JJ did the "evolution" of the story. It's chock-full of the familiar themes we know and love, but they always make way for the new themes - they set a foundation, then say "look at this new awesome stuff you're gonna love as well". Certain people get their original themes (Leia's theme is fairly prevalent when she's highlighted), but every other track has something familiar transition into something new - it's a musical handoff to the next generation, while still keeping the main theme and letting you know that it's still Star Wars at it's heart. I'm probably reading into it too much but I just really like it a lot 
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Dec 21, 2015 22:18
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Red posted:Those are indeed Ackbar and Nunb. Same actors, too. So where the gently caress was Lando Calrissian? Come on Billy Dee!
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Dec 21, 2015 22:19
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ZypherIM posted:The Cantina scene's only similarity is that they're looking for transport in a bar with aliens. They're not even looking for transport, they're looking for information Honestly, if you abstract details enough every story is basically the same anyways. Everyone crowing about how much TFA cribs from ANH needs to realize that there are no original stories and move on with their lives.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:21
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Weekend finals are in, adjusted up over the estimate of $238 to $248M: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm
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Dec 21, 2015 22:23
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So, were there any direct references to the prequels besides the line about clone troopers and Ewan McGregor doing Obi-wan's voice in a spooky force dream?
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Dec 21, 2015 22:27
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Empress Theonora posted:So, were there any direct references to the prequels besides the line about clone troopers and Ewan McGregor doing Obi-wan's voice in a spooky force dream? Besides the Jar Jar cameo on Max Kanzanka's base?
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Dec 21, 2015 22:29
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Empress Theonora posted:So, were there any direct references to the prequels besides the line about clone troopers and Ewan McGregor doing Obi-wan's voice in a spooky force dream?
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Dec 21, 2015 22:31
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I don't believe TFA will age well after the post coitus glow wears off. For me, the new characters don't make up for the fact they rehashed the same "destroy a death star" which was already rehashed in ROTJ. The film spent so much time setting up scenes that call back to ANH (already posted about) that it never got off the ground for me. It was borderline fanfiction quality plot writing. TFA also lacked heart. For instance, when Leia sees Chewie for first time after Han dies she walks right past him to talk to Rey. Give the wookie a loving hug for christ's sake he just lost his best friend. That really bothered me. Rey, Finn and Po were decent and they couldn't save the film for me. Kylo Ren in the mask was kinda cool. Outside the mask all I could think was he's a douchey millenial. Totally didn't work for me. I think they could have skipped over Han altogether. He labored through the film. It was neat to see him for about 10 minutes. Then it was just hollowing out my childhood for money disney style for every scene he was in after the bounty hunters scene. My alternative: have TFA start with a 10 minute bridge scene to establish Luke is missing, the republic is a mess and Han is already dead. Then write a loving original script that does not involve a death star. LOTR covered thousands of years in their bridge scenes brilliantly. I had high expectations based on the early buzz. I left very disappointed. I may be a bit pissed off my childhood is continuing to be ruined by lovely remakes.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:33
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Stugazi posted:I may be a bit pissed off my childhood is continuing to be ruined by lovely remakes. We get it, there are some cringe-worthy posts on reddit or wherever. You could at least source them, though.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:36
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I've always wondered, what if Owen had allowed Luke to join the Academy and leave Tatooine? What would Obi-Wan have done since he wanted to keep an eye on Luke. And I doubt he'd consider it a good idea for the completely untrained burgeoning force sensitive Luke to suddenly be in the hands of the Empire. So would he have intervened and told Luke not to go?
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Dec 21, 2015 22:37
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Stugazi posted:Outside the mask all I could think was he's a douchey millenial. Totally didn't work for me. Wow the guy that's supposed to come across as a chode comes across as a chode. Also young people 
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Dec 21, 2015 22:38
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DrNutt posted:Also young people Well, to be a general in charge of deathstar 2.0 and thousands of people I'd imagine you'd be an older person. I'm talking about general hux. He's the one that a young person doesn't make any sense to me.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:41
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spacetoaster posted:Well, to be a general in charge of deathstar 2.0 and thousands of people I'd imagine you'd be an older person. The fact that everyone we see in the First Order, even the higher-ups like Hux, is too young to remember the Empire feels like it's actually a significant glimpse into what the First Order is all about.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:43
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Stugazi posted:I don't believe TFA will age well after the post coitus glow wears off. You're both wrong and right. Wrong, because nobody'll admit that a copy-paste of ANH didn't really hit the buttons they wanted pressed. Right, because it is an extremely safe copy-paste of ANH and it'll be judged accordingly.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:43
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spacetoaster posted:Well, to be a general in charge of deathstar 2.0 and thousands of people I'd imagine you'd be an older person. The dudes in current custody and practical control of the U.S.'s nuclear arsenal are millenials. And they've been under scrutiny quite a bit recently for illicit drug use. But any how, the youth of the First Order is an element of the story and not a mistake.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:48
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I really enjoyed this. It did feel like a J. J. Abrams movie, though: the plot felt kind of slapdash and half-baked, the pacing was a bit too brisk, some elements needed to either be given more focus or excised. But it absolutely succeeded by virtue of the charming characters and the excellent actors that portrayed them. The interplay between Finn and Poe was fantastic. Although I can't not see Poe as Nick Miller from New Girl. Only in space.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:53
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MisterBibs posted:You're both wrong and right. Wrong, because nobody'll admit that a copy-paste of ANH didn't really hit the buttons they wanted pressed. Right, because it is an extremely safe copy-paste of ANH and it'll be judged accordingly. Actually I think it'll be judged by a half billion dollar opening weekend and for kicking off another ridiculously profitable series of films for Disney that have near worldwide universal acclaim, with nobody really caring that it reintroduces story beats to children that happened in a movie nearly forty years ago.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:01
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You really can tell someone with terrible opinions, not in their mini review of the movie but when they follow it up with their own lovely fan fiction.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:04
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Stugazi posted:I may be a bit pissed off my childhood is continuing to be ruined by lovely remakes. Sorry about your (continuing) childhood.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:05
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Phylodox posted:I really enjoyed this. It did feel like a J. J. Abrams movie, though: the plot felt kind of slapdash and half-baked, the pacing was a bit too brisk, some elements needed to either be given more focus or excised. But it absolutely succeeded by virtue of the charming characters and the excellent actors that portrayed them. The interplay between Finn and Poe was fantastic. Although I can't not see Poe as Nick Miller from New Girl. Only in space. Agreed on all counts. The briskness of the plot became too glaring when they were at the rebel base discussing how to take down Starkiller Base. They went from knowing literally nothing to first figuring out its inner workings ("in order to store that much energy, it must have a thermal something-something!"), then understanding its defenses ("it must have impenetrable shields!") and finally coming up with an impeccable plan to destroy it... all within the span of 60 seconds. It totally takes away from the sense of menace that a planet-sized WMD is supposed to instill in the audience. Another thing the movie fails to deliver is the sense of the galaxy's scale. Starkiller Base fires its weapon from one end of the galaxy, and a few moments later you see the beams destroy the Republic planets. Rey and Chewie jump into hyperspeed, and moments later emerge at the ocean planet. I hope one of the deleted scenes show Rey and Chewie playing the virtual board game while traveling through hyperspace and developing a connection over Han's death, or something like that.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:08
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Has there been discussion about what Snoke's gimmick is going to be? I feel like it's too obvious a Wizard of Oz parallel for there not to be an eventual "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!" moment, but I can't figure out who it could be. Lando, maybe.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:08
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Lando what?
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Dec 21, 2015 23:10
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Phylodox posted:Has there been discussion about what Snoke's gimmick is going to be? I feel like it's too obvious a Wizard of Oz parallel for there not to be an eventual "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!" moment, but I can't figure out who it could be. My co-workers and I saw the movie as a company and a number of them have put together some convincing theories that it's Darth Plagius. It's not likely to me that they'd make reference to an offhand mention from the prequels since they are mostly distancing themselves from them but the idea of Snoke being a resurrected sith that waited until Palpy was dead to come back wouldn't be the worst idea. Palpy trying to kill him would explain the nasty face scars. I think he'll probably end up being a tiny little guy, sort of a evil not-Yoda. It would also be rad if he was actually even larger than the hologram.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:12
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Snoke is definitely going to be an evil Yoda.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:12
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enraged_camel posted:Lando what?
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Dec 21, 2015 23:13
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sinking belle posted:Lando System. Lando's not a system, he's a man
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Dec 21, 2015 23:14
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Snoke is definitely going to be an evil Yoda. He already kind of is an evil Yoda-- urging his young apprentice not to be seduced by the other side of the Force when he confronts his father, etc.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:15
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I think the hologram is probably entirely a fabrication. The obvious answer is that it's hiding a character we already know (like Lando). Or maybe Luke's gone space-bananas.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:15
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