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Generally, I wonder if the people focusing on how pathetic Ren is in comparison to Vader realize that: 1) That's literally the point and 2) Vader's first appearance has him as Tarkin's glorified pit bull who gets sent spinning off into space like an 80's cartoon villain at the end
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Dec 22, 2015 08:41
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Onion Knight posted:The only thing I didn't like was Starkiller Base. Not a novel sentiment, I know. It's dumb because its name is a homage to the original ANH scripts (Luke's last name used to be Starkiller), except JJ went overboard and decided to interpret it literally, and came up with the utterly silly concept of sucking up a star's energy and using it to destroy planets. Fortunately the rest of the movie is really, really good.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:57
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I think people don't give Starkiller Base enough credit for the aesthetic flourishes it added to the Death Star concept. Making it a terraformed planet with geography, flora, an atmosphere, grey skies, and wintry weather really paid off visually and dramatically. You have this tension between industry and nature, with the weapons systems incinerating the forests and quite literally sucking the light from the sky-- and in the end, nature wins out with the rebirth of a sun. It's a little corny, but it's a distinctive new touch, and allowing scenes to flow directly from the base interior to the snowy forest outside set a great tone.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:57
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I have never been a huge star wars fan. I watched all the original series, enjoyed it, had fun, but never got super obsessed like a lot of people. I just got done watching the film and thought I'd share my opinion. It was merely 'OK'. Not amazing. I did not enjoy myself as much as I typically do when I go to Marvel movies. I did not like Rey (Or is it Ray?). She was a boring character. Her 'surrogate father' relationship with Han Solo was rushed and contrived and stupid. Same with her suddenly developing force powers. I genuinely was hoping that she'd try to pull off force tricks and fail because of an utter lack of training. Kylo Ren was both good and bad. The bad is that he was a whiny pathetic bitch of an antagonist that was in no way, shape, or form interesting or likeable. The good is that this is all because he was attempting to emulate his grandfather, and I think he totally managed to become a near perfect Episode 3 Anakin Skywalker. Finn and Poe Dameron were both interesting and enjoyable characters. Anytime Finn was center stage I was enjoying the show. I was rooting for him to pull off a miracle and win (Or at least stall until planet collapse forces a stalemate) the duel with Kylo, I think that would have been much more interesting than 'untrained Jedi somehow beat trained (granted, not fully, but still more than she got) Sith because SHE DA GOOD GUY'.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:57
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Supercar Gautier posted:I think people don't give Starkiller Base enough credit for the aesthetic flourishes it added to the Death Star concept. Making it a terraformed planet with geography, flora, an atmosphere, grey skies, and wintry weather really paid off visually and dramatically. You have this tension between industry and nature, with the weapons systems incinerating the forests and quite literally sucking the light from the sky-- and in the end, nature wins out with the rebirth of a sun. It's a little corny, but it's a distinctive new touch, and allowing scenes to flow directly from the base interior to the snowy forest outside set a great tone. And imagine the fall over the cliff of the giant trench! I also like the blunt-force symbolism of the planet turning into a star. It sucks light away, creating darkness. Then the good guys succeed, and we have the light again.
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Dec 22, 2015 09:05
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Nessus posted:I'm glad you asked. Quotin' the best bedtime story (why not Manos Eisley cantina?)
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Dec 22, 2015 09:19
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khy posted:I have never been a huge star wars fan. I watched all the original series, enjoyed it, had fun, but never got super obsessed like a lot of people. You are jumping to conclusions. We don't know that she is untrained, for one thing. She was already very skilled with melee weapons (she owned like four dudes by herself at the public market), and there are strong hints that she had received some Jedi training when she was little. Also, Kylo was pretty badly injured by Chewbacca before that fight, which helped even the odds. Slow News Day fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 09:33
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The very thing that seems to bug a lot of twerps (much more on Reddit's thread than here) about the lightsaber fight is the exact reason I liked it. It was not about objective, videogame achievement skill level ("My powers have doubled since the last time we met." Anybody?) or if Kylo's SwordSkill Level 7 has been reduced to Level 4 because he's injured by 5 HitPoints from a bowcaster shot and Finn has Level 0 sword points. Et cetera. None of that bullshit. It was a swordfight-as-conversation, as character development and the whole "...not this crude matter" idea. Palate cleansed in that sense. edit; Actually, I guess his injury was kind of like that. But it was used to reveal a bit of his character as much as it was to even the odds. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 09:43
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Even after grabbing the saber, Rey is only doing a bit better than Finn until she embraces the Force.
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Dec 22, 2015 09:45
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khy posted:I have never been a huge star wars fan. I watched all the original series, enjoyed it, had fun, but never got super obsessed like a lot of people. I liked rey a whole lot and I really don't buy the Mary sue thing. I really liked the way her lessons were basically taught to her by kylo and his enormous force hubris. He reaches into her head and in doing so she learns about force willpower stuff and basically opens the force floodgates. And because he's fuckin kylo the minute someone turns the force against him he loses all composure and bottles. Same in the big fight. She's doing worse than finn despite her earlier melee skills, in a constant retreat until she is cornered and opens herself to the force at which point he once again bottles completely and becomes nervous and wild - he actively loses as much as she wins. Fights in stwars have always been more about opening yourself to the force and letting it help than actual fencing skill and you can see kylo just collapse when he is tested by an actual force weilder. So yeah, reys character is great and those themes are good and thematic. As to why she picks it up quickly where luke struggled it seems pretty obvious. Luke was skeptical. He remained skeptical and frustrated even after force guiding a missile down a hole and meeting a master who initially decided he was untrainable. Rey actively accepts the force and at the end calls to it.
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Dec 22, 2015 09:50
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Rey fucks up twice. Releasing the rathtars and revealing to Kylo that she's seen the map. She even reveals where Luke is but Kylo doesn't realise it. She also runs away when offered the saber but MUH NARRATIVE
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Dec 22, 2015 09:55
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Rey never fucks up, except these three or four times she unambiguously fucks up.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:01
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My theory about Snoke is that he's just a bunch of recordings someone left on, and all of their interactions with him have just been amazing coincidences.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:05
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Snoke's just what the First Order calls their deathstick-inspired hallucinations. Han symbolizes the failure of school anti-drug programs.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:10
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I think a lot of the complaints about Rey would have been ironed out if JJ gave the movie more time to breathe. JJ's sense of pace is just bad, and it impacts every movie he makes. She feels hypercompetent because she has to succeed (pretty much) the first time always, because the movie moves too fast for her to have any time to fail and try again anywhere.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:13
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Other than maybe force stuff, Rey isn't even presented as amazing at anything else. She's a ~good pilot, fighter and spaceship repair person which all make sense given her background as a scavenger on a hardass planet. She's nowhere near as good a pilot as Poe, Kylo easily captures her when uninjured etc.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:17
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I don't even see how Rey does anything "faster" to be honest. I mean I guess she figured out the Jedi mind trick. But the end of ANH has Luke out flying Vader, and that's something Anakin is expressly supposed to be great at.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:19
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MonsterEnvy posted:The Clone Wars actually does try to percent the Clones as people. Pointing out they don't just have to blindly follow orders they are people and that's why they are better then Droids.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:38
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The forest scene where Rey fights off a few Stormtroopers with a holdout blaster that she misfires on the first trigger pull, then gets captured shows as her being fairly out of her depth.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:46
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Am I the only one who prefers "They just went with it cause they thought the movie would benefit from it" over "this is explained in the EU books and\or some cartoon"? Referencing external material that is written specifically as a marketing tie-in is just generally in very poor taste.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:52
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Onion Knight posted:I think a lot of the complaints about Rey would have been ironed out if JJ gave the movie more time to breathe. JJ's sense of pace is just bad, and it impacts every movie he makes. She feels hypercompetent because she has to succeed (pretty much) the first time always, because the movie moves too fast for her to have any time to fail and try again anywhere. Hmmm well she does get captured and the bad guy tried to mind rape her but it's a children movie so you can't have long grizzily torture sessions.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:55
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Am I the only one who prefers "They just went with it cause they thought the movie would benefit from it" over "this is explained in the EU books and\or some cartoon"? I'm of this mindset as well. It's difficult to divorce your knowledge of all the previous Star Wars media, but I just suppressed the urge to nitpick about how Wedge Antilles could just as easily have been Poe Dameron without having to invent a whole new character, etc etc etc and just took whatever TFA presented at face value. Please don't misconstrue this is as a "just turn off your brain" argument
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Dec 22, 2015 11:05
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The stormtrooper with the big stunstick who clowned on Finn's lightsaber skills should have been Phasma.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:09
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Getting clowned by Han would've furthered the Boba Fett parallels, yeah.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:12
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people have been talking about the similarities between the snoke and plagueis theme so i doubled them together and yeah, they're basically the same http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=h...Name=snoopsagan i really wouldn't mind something like that in episode 8, you can't really top sheev as a grand villain without copying him so having his master as the new one could actually work. plus, we wouldn't have to call him snoke anymore actually on second thought that whole dumb loving scene in rots was probably some bullshit sheev made up so who cares Hefty Leftist fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 11:58
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The real shock will come when they finally corner Snoke in person, and he throws away his robe, revealing a little babby Sheev Palpatine growing from his chest Total Recall style. I'd be so loving down with that. Doubly so if he does his fly-scream-twirl thing out of Snoke's chest to make his escape. e:  If anything I hope this Kylo Ren, Vader Fanboy thing lasts forever. It's never not funny to think of a young Ben Solo making GBS threads up Space Reddit with his Sith apologism, just knowing deep in his heart that his cool evil grandpa would totally understand him... Aaronicon fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 12:03
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I should have moved over here days ago so I can  about the film.Jiro posted:Who was never really a badass to begin with. Never understood how Boba got that reputation to begin with. In his introduction in Empire, Vader gets in his face, wags his finger at him and intones a threat to him and he just shrugs it off like "whatever'. Later, he has the gall to confidently talk back to Vader before Han is frozen, again without backing down. That implies some serious confidence and bad-assery. The only other people we'd seen talk to Vader like that were Leia, Tarkin and a couple of dudes he force-choked. Then he figures out that Luke is sneaking up on him, and ambushes him. Then he actually wins and takes Han Solo away. And then it's three years before we see him again, but we all get the figure and the Slave One ship and they're both intricately detailed and complex and awesome. That's how he got the reputation. Then in Jedi he shows up being all stoic and cool in Jabba's palace. He's the only one, other than Jabba, who doesn't run screaming from the Thermal Detonator. Then when things kick off at the Sarlacc pit, he notices R2 leaving the party while everyone else is distracted, then he flies from the barge to the skiff and confronts Luke in close quarters, then gets the better of him and only loses control when somebody else shoots the skiff and they all get knocked down. Only then does he get launched into the Sarlacc by slapstick, literally. So 95% of his screen time and between-film time was him being a bad-rear end.
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Dec 22, 2015 12:14
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ThePutty posted:actually on second thought that whole dumb loving scene in rots was probably some bullshit sheev made up so who cares It's all true, well, most of it. Sidious really did murder his master in his sleep and Plagueis really did have that power. It's just how he lost it that Sidious gets wrong. Plagueis knew that Sidious could be the most powerful Sith lord of all time if he was sent down the right path. He understood that if Sidious were to believe that his own quest for power could be stopped at nothing, including stealing his master's power and murdering him in his sleep, those selfish feelings would drive him further to the dark side than anyone ever before. So he got shmee pregnant via midichlorians, then in order to conceal himself he transfered his own life force into the body of someone who lived on Naboo so he could keep tabs on Sidious. Thats right, Darth Plagueis has secretly been Jar Jar Binks the whole time.
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Dec 22, 2015 12:51
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My Q-Face posted:I should have moved over here days ago so I can So he stood around and talked to people is what you're saying. And the first time actually has to fight someone he dies...
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Dec 22, 2015 14:00
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Dapper_Swindler posted:well did obi-wan ever gently caress anyone? He doesn't seem like the type who would break the code. i mean maybe he hosed some barfly while watching after luke, but other then that. I dont think he has any siblings. unless you go by very very old pre-prequel canon that said owen lars was his brother. i mean maybe the obi won spin offs will explain it. Duchess Satine of Mandalore, whom was a great character. Kids show lol http://youtu.be/4lGETyUkjdo gohmak fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 14:03
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Spaceman Future! posted:we also have Rogue One cumming up next Christmas which joins the Ewoks movies in being the only non numbered star wars movies. we can only hope it is as good as those timeless classics with those lovable scamps. Are those canonical anymore? Or were they thrown out with the EU? And now that we have written canon stating that Ewoks eat people, that makes those two movies even better in hindsight.
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Dec 22, 2015 14:04
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Rey is a dumb character. She isn't like Luke as a character, only in background. She doesn't have a reason to be in the story other than coincidence until she reaches Maz's place. In many stories, there is a moment when an unknown person receives a gift that elevates them to the extraordinary. Usually, the gift or giver chooses the regular person by some means or by circumstance that could have been awarded to anyone. However, Rey just so happened to return Luke's saber while being the person use to the saber in beating Ren after the saber called out to her prior to fixing the Millennium Falcon just before flying the Falcon to escape the planet preceded by finding BB8. Its a delicious chain of coincidences that nullifies any commonness of the character. She was chosen not by destiny or any real metric other than the writer wanted her to be chosen. Rey is enormously competent but the real issue isn't her loving up or not. The issue is her never failing. This is primarily because she does not have a goal to fail at. Luke wanted to be a hero. He could fail or succeed at it. He did both over the course of the original films. For the bulk of A New Hope, he was sidekick to the adults of the party. You could see his resentment. He succeeded in piloting a ship to destroy the Death Star but that wasn't his only goal. He wanted to be like his father and he accomplished that but he still wasn't a jedi like his father. He had more room to grow. It is a very effective piece of storytelling and characterization. In fact, Luke destroying the Death Star didn't make Luke special perse, it was a means to show the power of the Force. Dozens of capable fighter pilots couldn't rival the power of an amateur force user. Vadar (another force user) was a menace in defending the Death Star and I always looked at that scene as Vadar letting Luke win so Luke could experience the power of the Force. This would go in line with Vadar's ultimate goal. Rey's goal was to find her family. However, she succeeded in many other unrelated ways that didn't build her character as much as it elevated her as a very important person. Why was it necessary, other the writer wanted her to be special? Wasn't she already special? Regardless, she didn't fail or succeed at her goal in The Force Awakens in finding her family. And if she did, with finding Luke, she didn't deliberately do it. She didn't overcome anything to achieve it. She was the secretly awesome space girl that fell into conflicts and resolved them because she's so great. Unbeknownst to her and everyone else, she may have succeed in her true goal in the end. Quaint. Luke was always limited in the story. He had to suffer to overcome those limits. He had to rely on his friends and challenge his own notions of what a relationship is over the course of the story. You can see it in the beginning. Even as a kid, I remember thinking that Luke was a brat in ANH. The Empire Strikes Back did a lot to explicitly humble him. He returned overtly humble in Return of the Jedi. That is called growth. How can Rey grow from this point? What has been established as a challenge for her to overcome? What goal does she need to achieve? Finn wants to redeem himself and in a general sense do the right thing. Ren wants to become a powerful warrior despite his shortcomings. At this point, Ren and Finn are more defined characters. Do you think they will take center stage? Or will the special girl continue to be special, if to fail, only to become even more special than before? temple fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 14:33
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Rey's goal changes in Maz's palace when Maz says "The belonging you seek is ahead of you." She was explicitly waiting for her family to return, but there's a moment when she bumps into Finn on So she wasn't looking for family after all, she was looking for belonging. By the end she has found that. I have no clue how opinions can vary so wildly on Rey. I found her to be my favorite part of the movie, and possibly the entire franchise. I've heard others say the same. Yet there's all this Mary Sue bullshit out there. Amazing.
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Dec 22, 2015 14:49
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I watched the movie only once but it's pretty clear that Rey's character arc is discarding her misguided rear-facing longing to be reunited with her long lost family in order to develop her own identity as a Jedi. If her story is "only" about "finding herself" then that's pretty much the same as Finn's, only with different circumstances.
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Dec 22, 2015 14:51
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Mahoning posted:Rey's goal changes in Maz's palace when Maz says "The belonging you seek is ahead of you." She was explicitly waiting for her family to return, but there's a moment when she bumps into Finn on The daughter of luke skywalker, savior of the galaxy, is special. must be poor writing.
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Dec 22, 2015 14:59
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Mahoning posted:Rey's goal changes in Maz's palace when Maz says "The belonging you seek is ahead of you." She was explicitly waiting for her family to return, but there's a moment when she bumps into Finn on
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Dec 22, 2015 15:01
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temple posted:So her story is over? What is her motivation to find Luke? What is her motivation to be a jedi? Where in the story is being a jedi or finding Luke ever a part of her character other than coincidence? The movie is over. That journey is over, just like Luke's was at the end of ANH. Luke never said in ANH that he wanted to confront Vader, or avenge/redeem his father. His story in ESB doesn't really begin until Obi Wan tells him to go to Degobah. Until then, Luke's motivation is "don't die from the Wampa". edit: People really seem to have trouble divorcing ANH from its sequels. Everyone's character arc is complete at the end of ANH. Luke used the force and saved the day for the Rebellion (just how he wanted to when he talked about getting off that shithole planet), Han shows he's not so selfish after all, and Leia......uhhhhh well see she's a woman and it was 1977 so they didn't really give her much of an arc. Mahoning fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 15:07
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Mahoning posted:The movie is over. That journey is over, just like Luke's was at the end of ANH. Luke never said in ANH that he wanted to confront Vader, or avenge/redeem his father. Luke Skywalker: How did my father die? Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force. temple fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 15:10
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temple posted:Its a delicious chain of coincidences that nullifies any commonness of the character. She was chosen not by destiny or any real metric other than the writer wanted her to be chosen. I've heard this in a number of different places and don't see how people can draw negative opinions from it. From my perspective, Rey and Finn are just random scrubs who get caught up in events that are way beyond them, and they have to rise to the occasion. They're not special, they just are trying to do what they think is right and are muddling through as best they can. Also I've been thinking about Finn + Lightsaber in the face of criticism from all angles and I realized that the fight at Maz's castle really helps set that up. Finn fighting the dude with the riot baton or whatever plants the seed that stormtroopers are trained in melee combat, and are actually probably pretty good at it. Thus, when Finn fights Kylo, it's not so far fetched to think that maybe he could hold his own for a little while with his regular skills.
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Dec 22, 2015 15:15
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She had flashbacks and visions after touching Luke's light saber. She still wants answers (we all do) as to why. It's literally the last shot of the movie. Did you need her to say "Please Luke, I haven't completed my arc yet. Tell me about my past and where I go from here. My best friend is in a coma due to this Kylo Ren guy who also killed a guy who I began to see as a father figure. I want nothing more than to murder him. Should I do that?"
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Dec 22, 2015 15:16
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