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I actually really enjoy the score to this, too, though I see a lot of people saying it was boring. Rey's Theme is great (probably the highlight), and I've found myself humming (could be considered a spoiler) The Jedi Steps (the theme used right before the credits). March of the Resistance is fun too. I've listened to it a few times, and I enjoy it more each time. It doesn't have a Duel of the Fates, but neither do most of the Star Wars soundtracks (outside of ESB, obviously), and Rey's Theme, while lighter fare, comes close to me.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:31
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I will say that it's pretty interesting seeing PT defending posters split between "the film overtly acknowledges the PT and is therefore good" and "the film panders too much to PT-hating fans and makes no sense".
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Dec 22, 2015 19:32
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:I suppose all the hype is going to lead to that outcome to some extent, but I'm not really all that invested in the Star Wars universe and wasn't looking for it to be ultra-faithful or an instant classic or anything like that. As far as Abrams goes Cloverfield was good and the new Star Trek movies, although typical Hollywood action fluff, were relatively well done. If anything I was expecting to come away with much the same reaction of a 6-7/10, enjoyable film. Instead I got beaten over the head with references to the old movies and all the plot points surrounding those references were weak and poorly paced. I am with you insofar as I hated the amount the callbacks to the original trilogy. A little bit of fan-service is totally fine, but they went overboard here. But still — I enjoyed this movie, and that's why I am curious: did the first 30 minutes do nothing for you and your friends? The new characters? All of the stuff that happens leading up to Rey + Finn fleeing in that piece of "garbage"? Not even a slight "ok, that was fun" moment? Because I can't imagine enjoying this movie less than something like "Into Darkness", which was barely watchable. Jack's Flow fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 19:40
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I'm so glad the film didn't end with the light saber igniting, I don't want to see him become a dumb warrior bad rear end. I'm happy with him never picking up a weapon again.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:41
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The choreography was fine. The execution, editing etc. is what I didn't like. Every Frame A Painting did a video about how to shoot an action scene that has a section that directly targets the editing in Guardians of the Galaxy - if the video had been made today it could have quite easily also brought up the lightsaber fights in this film, a film made by the same company with the same age rating. What I'm saying is corporate executives are forcing fights in their films to be bad so they don't run the risk of being too violent or visceral. The fights in the first three are very slow compared to the films they inspired (or are even inspired by - hidden fortress' action is fast as heck!) but are shot and edited very well. In all six films you know what is happening and where. This one seems to be purposefully shaking the camera and using weird close-ups and cutting constantly, making it hard to tell what exactly is going on. There's a place for that sort of storytelling, but I prefer the former in fantasy films. morestuff posted:I think Abrams handles the effects setpieces well, but yeah, his fight choreography is clunky. I couldn't wait for that fistfight in Into Darkness to end.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:41
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morestuff posted:I'm not opposed to something more acrobatic if it's well-executed, the climactic fight in Menace is the best in the series. I think it was good until the end with Obi-Wan. Citing the Plinkett review might be cliché at this point, but there really did need to be more emotion behind that climax.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:45
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I'm not really buying the less violent and visceral part. Nobody loses a hand but everyone involved in a lightsaber fight except Rey gets extremely hosed up. Kylo Ren shoving his burning blade into a screaming Finn is not tame and toothless.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:45
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Hbomberguy posted:The choreography was fine. The execution, editing etc. is what I didn't like. Every Frame A Painting did a video about how to shoot an action scene that has a section that directly targets the editing in Guardians of the Galaxy - if the video had been made today it could have quite easily also brought up the lightsaber fights in this film, a film made by the same company with the same age rating. What I'm saying is corporate executives are forcing fights in their films to be bad so they don't run the risk of being too violent or visceral. Well I agree with the observation that fights/action/violence is forced into the pg-13 safe box, I felt like TFA was quite violent in its onscreen deaths. I wonder how TFA's onscreen kill count stacks up to the other movies.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:47
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Getting poked or stabbed (they barely show the poke and do not show the stab) is far more PG than, for example, Hidden Fortress' numerous bloody slittings, or Return's elongated scene, with every little cutting, in which a screaming Luke just fuckin' wails on Vader. Violence on film isn't something objectively measurable by how pained a person looks. Texas Chainsaw Massacre has very little actual violence in it but has such an aura of violence to its production that it was famously impossible to make any edits to. They couldn't remove the violence because it transcended a single shot of some blood and gore. The effects of violence (in the lightsaber scenes specifically, the others are quite good!) are constantly reduced by the editing.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:49
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Hbomberguy posted:Getting poked or stabbed (they barely show the poke and do not show the stab) is far more PG than, for example, Hidden Fortress' numerous bloody slittings, or Return's elongated scene, with every little cutting, in which a screaming Luke just fuckin' wails on Vader Not in the slightest. A heroic character screaming in agony as they are tortured is arguably more upsetting than the mere sight of blood. The half-second shot of Kylo Ren bleeding onto the snow is a lot more effective when blood isn't so omnipresent. The violence in TFA is absolutely not gory but they instead focus on the emphasis of that violence. Compared to the other films in the series there is a lot more wounding. Character get hurt without getting killed on a regular basis and the lingering aftermath of that violence is focused on more than "someone loses an arm." This does happen in the previous movies as well but the lightsaber fight in TFA is almost unique for how it handles wounds. People get injured and keep going where most of the fights in previous films were of the more samurai-esque "a single successful slash ends it" sort of way. A swordfight in TFA ends with everyone torn up and hosed up and horribly injured. Only Rey emerges relatively unscathed and only because she preyed on a weakened opponent. It's more like a knife fight between untrained people than a dramatic samurai duel. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 19:51
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Cacator posted:I thought the fights were pretty refreshing compared to the spinny acrobatics in the prequels. Each series had its fights based on a different form of martial arts. A lot of hard work went into the fight choreography and it is all intentional.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:59
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Lol all you people saying Kylo Ren was a better villain than Vader are insane, he was a whiny little bitch
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Dec 22, 2015 19:59
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Bug Bill Murray posted:Lol all you people saying Kylo Ren was a better villain than Vader are insane, he was a whiny little bitch Just like Darth Vader. The really clever thing about Kylo Ren is that he embodies this mindset. "Darth Vader was so cool! He was so awesome! he was the best! He totally wasn't a whiny little bitch who hated sand! I'm going to be just like Darth Vader and not the whiny weak person I am."
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Dec 22, 2015 20:00
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I really liked the posture Kylo Ren adopted, especially in battle. A combination of cat/contortionist. Really gave a WTF/ominous vibe to his physicality.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:01
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Bug Bill Murray posted:Lol all you people saying Kylo Ren was a better villain than Vader are insane, he was a whiny little bitch If you don't find it brilliant that the villain in the new Star Wars movie was filled with self doubt about how he'll never be as good as Darth Vader, when the entire audience going in was thinking the same thing, then I don't even know what to say.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:01
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Neurolimal posted:I will say that it's pretty interesting seeing PT defending posters split between "the film overtly acknowledges the PT and is therefore good" and "the film panders too much to PT-hating fans and makes no sense". I haven't really seen that at all. If anything I've seen people who hate the PT who are divided between Kylo Ren being a whiny baby on purpose (like Anakin in the PT) or him just being a bad character.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:02
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Kylo Ren is a whiny brat but it works unlike with Anakin where it didn't work.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:04
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computer parts posted:I haven't really seen that at all. If anything I've seen people who hate the PT who are divided between Kylo Ren being a whiny baby on purpose (like Anakin in the PT) or him just being a bad character. Anyone who thinks that Kylo Ren isn't entirely on purpose is kind of deluding themselves when it is stated onscreen by a character.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:05
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Bug Bill Murray posted:Lol all you people saying Kylo Ren was a better villain than Vader are insane, he was a whiny little bitch I mean that's sorta why he's awesome. He's a Vader wannabe who is still very dangerous in his own right.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:05
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Taking into account only ANH and TFA, Kylo Ren is a better character than Vader.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:05
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ImpAtom posted:Not in the slightest. A heroic character screaming in agony as they are tortured is arguably more upsetting than the mere sight of blood. The half-second shot of Kylo Ren bleeding onto the snow is a lot more effective when blood isn't so omnipresent. The violence in TFA is absolutely not gory but they instead focus on the emphasis of that violence. Compared to the other films in the series there is a lot more wounding. Character get hurt without getting killed on a regular basis and the lingering aftermath of that violence is focused on more than "someone loses an arm." I'm writing in the explicit context of what makes a good action scene - which I feel is directly in relation to how it creates a sense of action and gets across the emotion of the characters and the themes of the story along with the objective action of the scene. For comparison: In Yojimbo, we're given an agonisingly long shot in which a guy gets stabbed once and then bleeds out and dies. You're stuck watching it, and that's more painful than the mere idea of them dying, or the gore itself. It's a property of the way the death is composed. Taking the blood out entirely wouldn't actually make it much less effective, in fact some people find the excess of it too silly. The point is the feel of the scene engages people. In this film, a character is about to get mind-tortured, and it immediately cuts as they begin to scream. You briefly see some blood in one short shot. You see some 'I have been hurt' makeup on people's faces. It implies violence and danger but without it ever really appearing? It could have been more engaging at points, is what I'm saying. But hey I like the prequels (I like this too, but still) so maybe we have different tastes in storytelling.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:06
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Kylo Ren is exactly what I pictured Vader being immediately after the events of Revenge of the Sith, before he became what he was in New Hope.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:08
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Deakul posted:I was really only super disappointed by the repetitive musical score and the very end with that really corny scene of Rey standing there holding the lightsaber out for Luke while he looks all super cool, I was hoping he would force yank the saber and ignite it and then a smash cut to the credits would've been cool there, but then it does a jarring helicopter spin around them? I would bet good money that Ep. 8 starts with Luke refusing to take the lightsaber at all. He failed his nephew and probably blames himself for Kylo's turn and all that that entails. That said I didn't find that scene corny. I really liked it.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:08
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Motto posted:Taking into account only ANH and TFA, Kylo Ren is a better character than Vader. I found it kind of funny that Adam Driver's delivery was (purposefully, I feel) a little bit stilted, to match the wonky way Anakin speaks in the PT.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:08
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Hbomberguy posted:In this film, a character is about to get mind-tortured, and it immediately cuts as they begin to scream. Right, and this is infinitely more effective. You're saying this makes it tamer but I disagree. By cutting out just as the screaming begins (and without emphasizing the length it went on) all you have to go on is what your mind fills in. A quick flash can be infinitely more effective than a long lingering shot because it forces the audience to fill in the violence themselves which often is more meaningful than what you can show. An example of this is the Joker's pencil trick in The Dark Knight which is honestly probably more uncomfortable to people than a long lingering shot of the pencil piercing the eye. The latter is infinitely more gory and more likely to disgust but obscuring it not only keeps the rating but is more unnerving despite being less explicit. There are times when a long lingering shot is absolutely appropriate like your Yojimbo example but it really depends on the situation.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:11
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hiddenriverninja posted:I found it kind of funny that Adam Driver's delivery was (purposefully, I feel) a little bit stilted, to match the wonky way Anakin speaks in the PT. Kylo trying so hard to invoke Obi-Wan's RotJ line about Anakin being destroyed by Vader, but being unable to summon the proper gravitas was great. Dude's all nerves.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:12
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ImpAtom posted:Just like Darth Vader. I read into it that Kylo Ren's character is a reflection of the real world dilemma of the screenwriters, which I thought was great. The challenge for Abrams and Kasdan was to create a new villain to fill the shoes of Darth Vader, but that's kind of an impossible task because he was so goddamn cool. Just having another guy who dresses in black and has a spooky voice would just feel like a ripoff. So what they did was to turn that problem into a central part of the character himself. Kylo Ren isn't just a character created to fill the role of the previous villain but not as effectively, in the story he's actually TRYING to fill the role of the previous villain but less effectively. Looking at it that way I thought made it seem like a clever solution to a puzzle anyone writing a Star Wars sequel would have to figure out. Unrelated: With the EU in the dumpster, is there any 'official explanation' for how Luke's old lightsaber made it from Bespin all the way into Rey's hot little hand?
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Dec 22, 2015 20:15
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I'm about to touch the third rail. Occasionally I read criticisms of the prequels that highlight the "I don't like sand" scene and say that it's a microcosm of everything wrong with those films: it looks pretty, but the dialogue is really awkward and Hayden's performance comes across as fumbling, like he doesn't know how to say his lines correctly. This is proof that George was just obsessed with CGI and effects and backstory and costumes, and because of that he forgot how to develop characters and how to direct his actors. But this scene is actually one of the finest romance scenes in the saga. It's an authentically human moment with (*gasp*) a believable bit of dialogue. quote:(Padmé has just been telling Anakin of an old boyfriend. She and Anakin arrive at the lake house by boat and walk up to the balcony.) Everything I just mentioned up above is true! The lines are awkward and Hayden plays it as though he doesn't really know how to say these things. But that's a character moment. Anakin tries to shrug off a moment of romantic jealousy with a weak joke, but in doing so he reveals his own vulnerability. He lets slip that his past on Tatooine still haunts him, and he also hints that he sees Padmé as a way of fixing his pain. We see that Anakin is bad at this—he's perhaps the worst smooth-talker in the galaxy—but he's still trying his best to put the moves on his crush. That's characterization and plot advancement and foreshadowing all in a single line. Natalie does a competent job here as well. She moves pretty smoothly from matter-of-fact but slightly wistful speech to a moment of entranced fixation, and then she snaps out of it suddenly. We also learn something about her character: for Padmé, Anakin's charm has nothing to do with his poise and everything to do with his earnestness. There is nothing at all wrong with this scene. It has purposeful writing, convincing performances, an appropriately beautiful setting, great costumes, good cinematography, and a masterful use of the musical score. That said, I still totally understand why some people hate it. An awful lot of OT fans really love the Han Solo character. They identify with (or aspire to be like, or just enjoy watching) the dashing rogue type, the stone-cold badass with a heart of gold who always has a snappy line and who's never vulnerable if he can help it. AOTC Anakin is essentially the polar opposite of Han Solo. Anakin wears his emotions right on his sleeve, without the least bit of subtlety. He's brutally honest at all times. He's also wildly insecure, though he covers it up with the occasional show of reckless bravado. Anakin has zero cynicism and possesses no regard for his own safety, a trait that's related to his lack of self-esteem. This scene really shoves in your face just how unlike Han he really is. He's profoundly uncool. So in this way, the "sand" scene does encapsulate what's wrong with the prequels. If what you love about Star Wars is seeing a charming anti-hero running across the galaxy spouting witty banter and getting wrapped up in crazy adventures with his friends, the prequel trilogy sucks. It has almost nothing to offer you, except maybe in the first thirty minutes of ROTS. Instead, all three of the main heroes are idealists, and it's actually really important for the story that there is no Han Solo Sr. around to keep them grounded.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:15
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Obama 2012 posted:Unrelated: With the EU in the dumpster, is there any 'official explanation' for how Luke's old lightsaber made it from Bespin all the way into Rey's hot little hand? Not yet.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:16
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If something intentional comes across clunky, like it was a result of bad direction rather than author intent, then it probably isn't a good scene. Writing is essentially communication, and bad writing is a failure to communicate your ideas effectively, regardless of how good the ideas might've been.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:21
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ImpAtom posted:Right, and this is infinitely more effective. You're saying this makes it tamer but I disagree. By cutting out just as the screaming begins (and without emphasizing the length it went on) all you have to go on is what your mind fills in. A quick flash can be infinitely more effective than a long lingering shot because it forces the audience to fill in the violence themselves which often is more meaningful than what you can show. An example of this is the Joker's pencil trick in The Dark Knight which is honestly probably more uncomfortable to people than a long lingering shot of the pencil piercing the eye. The latter is infinitely more gory and more likely to disgust but obscuring it not only keeps the rating but is more unnerving despite being less explicit. Imagine if, right before the guy's head hit the pencil, it cut to a reaction shot or to the guy hitting the ground. It removes the feel of the impact, etc and stuff that remains when you don't cut. The 'torture' in TFA consists of cutting to someone who has already been tortured, and then cutting away once he's about to get mind-probed. I simply didn't find that effective. I'm not asking for an elongated torture scene in my children's fantasy film but I would prefer it be more engaging than it was. The 'interrogation' we see of Leia in ANH was superior. A guy says 'we're gonna give you truth drugs' and the camera zooms in on a loving giant-rear end needle. I get goosebumps watching it. Compare 'oh no he's screaming but now he's gone, I guess we're onto this scene of a lady doing something' and you immediately forget, to a lingering shot of this:  holy poo poo tell them everything you know
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Dec 22, 2015 20:21
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Augus posted:I think it was good until the end with Obi-Wan. Citing the Plinkett review might be cliché at this point, but there really did need to be more emotion behind that climax. Plinkett doesn't mention it but a lot of the climax was cut because the movie was running over. That said Lucas really needed a writing partner. He was really good at coming up with these big themes and deconstructing his own myth but it generated problems in the conventional structure of the films. The Jedi are cold and arrogant because the myth is running backwards, the heroes are losing their enlightenment and the boons are slipping away, but then you have them fight the Sith at the end and there's the problem that we don't really care much if they die. Anakin can't die obviously, and Jar Jar's storyline is the Ewok battle again and it's mostly comic relief. Only Padme's story has a chance of tension but that's the one that got mostly cut.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:23
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Augus posted:If something intentional comes across as clunky, like it was a result of bad direction rather than author intent, then it probably isn't a good scene. Intentional and clunky are not mutually exclusive, and anyways the 'clunkiness' or perception of clunkiness is an aspect of the film regardless of the intent of direction or author and should be incorporated into a reading of the film.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:23
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Soul Glo posted:I would bet good money that Ep. 8 starts with Luke refusing to take the lightsaber at all. He failed his nephew and probably blames himself for Kylo's turn and all that that entails. It just lingered way too long and it looked silly after a while to me.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:30
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You can talk all you want about how Anakin is supposed to be emotionally retarded, but that doesn't change the fact that we have no reason to care. The movie wants us to feel bad for him when he turns evil, but the tragedy doesn't work because he's completely unlikable.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:32
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Augus posted:You can talk all you want about how Anakin is supposed to be emotionally retarded, but that doesn't change the fact that we have no reason to care. The movie wants us to feel bad for him when he turns evil, but the tragedy doesn't work because he's completely unlikable. Is Anakin a worse character because he squeals wrong, or doesn't look at sunsets the way you like?
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Dec 22, 2015 20:35
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A character saying a clunky thing is not necessarily a flaw in the script. It reveals an aspect of their character. It means they're the kind of person who would say that kind of thing. That said, the dialog is a weakness of Attack of the Clones. George Lucas will admit his dialog is functional at best. The problem is that the story that dialog is supporting is a mystery, disguised as another mystery, with characters' motivations rather than their actions being the object of suspense. The big twist at the end, recall, was that Dooku had been working for Sidious all along. A story like that benefits from lines with heavy subtext, lines with a lot of double meanings, lines that conceal to the other characters but reveal to the audience. I feel like in order to communicate the necessary amount of information, the script basically duplicated many of the conversations, where a leaner script might have combined them into one, in which literal plot facts and multiple participants' perspectives are expressed with a greater economy. That could aid with comprehension.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:36
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Hbomberguy posted:What makes you like Luke? Is it the shot of him looking wistfully at the sun that one time? Or maybe the one line about him wanting to be a Jedi, or the way he squeals happily when he scores a hit? Luke is a nice person who comes to really care about other people besides than himself. He starts off a little whiny and wanting more, but he eventually risks his life for his new friends. That makes him a hero.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:38
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CelticPredator posted:Anakin is a nice person who comes to really care about other people besides than himself. He starts off a little whiny and wanting more, but he eventually risks his life for his new friends. That makes him a hero. I watched The Phantom Menace.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:39
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CelticPredator posted:Luke is a nice person who comes to really care about other people besides than himself. He starts off a little whiny and wanting more, but he eventually risks his life for his new friends. That makes him a hero. Anakin is a nice person who starts off caring about other people than himself and risking his life for them.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:40
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