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Dr. Fishopolis posted:What I said was this: I couldn't decipher one single fathomable reason for Anakin turning to the dark side after watching those movies. He did it because the Jedi are evil. How did you not understand this? Also, I just watched Force Awakens. lol
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Dec 23, 2015 00:49
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Anakin's motivations were completely opaque, none of his reactions to the events in the story created a consistent basis for character. I know he turned to the dark side because a bunch of poo poo happened in the story. I have no idea who he was, who he turned into or why. You're not actually adding any context or elaboration to what you said. The reasons and motivations for Anakin's fall are easy as hell to understand, and you'd have to be actively refusing to engage with the movie to not understand it.
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Dec 23, 2015 00:49
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Can someone explain to me who Max Landis is and why he thinks he matters?
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Dec 23, 2015 00:50
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Do tell! e: directed at SMG
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Dec 23, 2015 00:50
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MisterBibs posted:You're not actually adding any context or elaboration to what you said. The reasons and motivations for Anakin's fall are easy as hell to understand, and you'd have to be actively refusing to engage with the movie to not understand it.
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Dec 23, 2015 00:53
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TFRazorsaw posted:Can someone explain to me who Max Landis is and why he thinks he matters? He's made some pretty cool videos that SUPREMELY piss off nerds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwDbSYicM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYvMOf3hsGA
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Dec 23, 2015 00:54
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Also why did Anakin go to the dark side? Cause his mom died?
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Dec 23, 2015 00:55
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MisterBibs posted:He didn't want his wife to die, and he'd do anything to prevent that. Dude he trusts says "The dark side can prevent folks from dying." It's not just that. Anakin was already convinced that there was a way to prevent people from dying, and that the Jedi were keeping it from him because they were jealous of his power: Attack of the Clones posted:ANAKIN: The shifter broke. Life seems so much simpler when you’re fixing things. I’m good at fixing things. Always was. But I couldn’t– Revenge of the Sith posted:PALPATINE: It is upsetting to me to see that the Council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents. Don't you wonder why they won't make you a Jedi Master? This is something Anakin had suspected was possible long before Palpatine ever suggested it to him. The Jedi use their minds to manipulate the very fabric of reality on a routine basis. So wouldn't it stand to reason that they could use their powers to do anything, even to reverse death, provided a given Jedi was powerful enough? And is it not true that Anakin has the objectively documented potential to be the most powerful Jedi who ever lived? In Anakin's mind, it made sense of everything. It explained why Obi-Wan was so jealous of him, it explained why the Jedi Council was so reluctant to make him a Master despite his vastly superior abilities, and it explained why Yoda had tried so hard to convince Anakin of the absurd notion that death was actually a good thing during their earlier counseling session. Clearly, everyone else knew something Anakin didn't, and were desperately trying to keep it that way. All Palpatine did was confirm his suspicions.
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Dec 23, 2015 00:56
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:What I said was this: I couldn't decipher one single fathomable reason for Anakin turning to the dark side after watching those movies. I feel the EU did a better job than the movies in explaining this, but from the movies you can get I think Anakin was reeling from the second movie where his mother dies, then a few days later he loses his arm and is plunged into a galactic war. He becomes a general because thats what the Jedi do and was promoted to a Jedi knight before he should have been due to the shortage of Jedi. Also alot of the Jedi other than Obi-wan were kind of dicks to him, while Palpatine was pretty nice to him since the first movie. Anakin after dealing with all this stress finally cracks when he gets visions of Padme dying who is one of like 3 people in the galazy he likes (loves), Palpatine throws him a lifeline that could maybe save her. Anakin values Padme more than all of the Jedi order and thus betrays them for the chance to help her. If Obi-wan was around instead of chasing down Grievous he may have been able to keep Anakin from falling, instead it was Mace "Your not cut out to be a jedi" Windu who then tries to murder one of Anakin few friends so he cuts off his arm realizes what he has done and falls into Palpatines hands. When Obi-wan confronts Anakin on Mustafar he is too far gone for him to get his head on straight. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 01:00
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MisterBibs posted:You're not actually adding any context or elaboration to what you said. The reasons and motivations for Anakin's fall are easy as hell to understand, and you'd have to be actively refusing to engage with the movie to not understand it. I think it's pretty easy to not engage with a movie when you hate every character in it except Obi Wan, but for my part, in order to be more fair and also out of boredom I will now rewatch the prequels for the first time since RotS came out.  god
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Dec 23, 2015 01:01
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MisterBibs posted:You're not actually adding any context or elaboration to what you said. The reasons and motivations for Anakin's fall are easy as hell to understand, and you'd have to be actively refusing to engage with the movie to not understand it. Okay, please give me some sort of insight into Anakin's inner life because it wasn't in the movies. I get that he thought Padme was going to die, I get that he got snubbed by the Jedi Council. What I don't get is who the gently caress he was or what his motivations for doing anything about it were. Sure, Palpatine was like "hey yo i can help you save your bland emotionless girlfriend from a thing that might happen because you had a dream or something. also the jedi like totally don't understand what you're going through." Where i'm lost is the part where Anakin's like "oh ok let's go slaughter some toddlers." Telling me that someone did a thing doesn't tell me why.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:01
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Oh yeah but it was acted and written like loving garbage. EDIT: It would have helped if Padme and their love seemed even remotely believable.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:02
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Okay, please give me some sort of insight into Anakin's inner life because it wasn't in the movies. I get that he thought Padme was going to die, I get that he got snubbed by the Jedi Council. What I don't get is who the gently caress he was or what his motivations for doing anything about it were. I blame the poor writing, also Anakin murdering children was pretty  If he just cut down some adults it would be less oh god he went from 0-100 real quick and instead more of a "Well he turned on them I doubt the order is going to be like, its okay Anakin killing {insert jedi here} isn't that big of a deal lets kill Sidious.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:05
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Jack2142 posted:I blame the poor writing, also Anakin murdering children was pretty Younglings you uncultured swine!
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Dec 23, 2015 01:06
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I"m not saying reasons weren't explicitly presented, what I'm saying is that I have no context for them. Anakin's motivations were completely opaque, none of his reactions to the events in the story created a consistent basis for character. I know he turned to the dark side because a bunch of poo poo happened in the story. I have no idea who he was, who he turned into or why. Oh, so you didn't watch the movie.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:07
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Vintersorg posted:Younglings you uncultured swine! Some say younglings, I prefer the term religious cult child soldiers
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Dec 23, 2015 01:07
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TFRazorsaw posted:Can someone explain to me who Max Landis is and why he thinks he matters? What he thinks doesn't matter, but loads of people would say otherwise and it makes me sad because he spreads bad information, informing others with his lovely opinion and instilling it on them. That's all packaged up in an insufferable, pretentious personality too.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:11
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What bad information does he spread exactly?
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Dec 23, 2015 01:12
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I think John Landis is pretty cool. E: except for getting those kids killed.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:13
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TFRazorsaw posted:What bad information does he spread exactly? By bad information I mean his opinions which typically come off as trying to be contrarian just for the sake of it.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:13
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also, I just watched Force Awakens. lol Didn't care for it?
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Dec 23, 2015 01:14
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Okay, please give me some sort of insight into Anakin's inner life because it wasn't in the movies. I get that he thought Padme was going to die, I get that he got snubbed by the Jedi Council. What I don't get is who the gently caress he was or what his motivations for doing anything about it were. Yes, this is what I meant by actively refusing to engage with the film. We could've avoided all of this. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 01:20
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:Didn't care for it? He wouldn't, honestly.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:He did it because the Jedi are evil. How did you not understand this? I am so hype for this. I'm ready for the thread to pivot to actually talking about TFA in a real way.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:42
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Vintersorg posted:Also why did Anakin go to the dark side? Cause his mom died? First there's being separated from his mom, and the Jedi not deciding at any point in the intervening 10 years to do anything about his mom still being a slave and slavery still being a thing on the Outer Rim planets and so on. He's cut off from his mom, and Obi-Wan is the only parental figure in his life. This is not a role that Kenobi is ready to fill. His mom dying triggers off a rampage which is his first major crime, and it's also the point where he says he wants to stop people from dying. Then there's falling in love with a woman when Jedi aren't supposed to form romantic attachments- they're supposed to "love everyone" in that hippy dippy way but the idea of being specifically connected to someone is considered bad. So they have to get married in secret and have this whole hidden life. So she gets pregnant and he foresees her dying in childbirth. Were they not in a secret forbidden marriage Anakin could probably just tell Obi-Wan or someone "hey, my wife's pregnant and I'm worried things are gonna go wrong, know any good doctors?" Instead he poses a vague question to Yoda who responds with a panacea about being willing to let go, etc.- stuff that's probably true in the overall sense but not what Anakin needs to hear. Palpatine (who probably sent him the vision) of course knows about this and is all "Hey, you know who can stop people from dying? The Sith." That's a big part of the temptation. But the Jedi help. Finding out the Chancellor is a Sith and has designs on being Emperor for life, they decide they have to depose him. To Anakin, this looks like a coup attempt, because it is. He has every reason to think the Jedi are in the wrong and a threat to the Republic- they're acting above the law, they're beating up on what looks to him like a defenseless old man, and sure, they say he's on the "Dark Side", but what does that mean? He's just offered to help! So he makes his choice. Even when it doesn't save Padme, it's too late. I think by the time of the OT he knows the Emperor is not really one of the good guys, but what's he going to do? Of course then he finds out about Luke, and throughout Empire and Jedi he's acting at cross purposes to the Emperor, before finally doing the right thing and just throwing him down the nearest elevator shaft. I honestly feel like the prequels improve my view of Vader in the OT (and in Jedi especially)- he acts a little inconsistently in the three films because he's still wrestling with himself.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:52
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Vintersorg posted:He's made some pretty cool videos that SUPREMELY piss off nerds. Max Landis is being pretty douchey about this movie which is making it hard for me to remember he can be very on point sometimes, and even very recently was pretty amiable and humble on RedLetterMedia (twice!)
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Dec 23, 2015 01:52
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Anakin already knew a way to stop people from dying; it prolly involves not letting them be slaves on an anarchist planet controlled by a slug mob Like, you can argue that he couldnt do anything because the jedi wouldnt let him return, but that opens up the question "so Anakin will break the rules to get his dick wet, but he wont ask his queen-of-a-paradise GF to buy his mother's freedom? Or just let him hitch a ride over there so he can do it himself? (Presumably by whining and then murdering Watto, since those are his biggest character traits)"
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Dec 23, 2015 01:57
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Just got back from seeing it. A good movie that worked for me but had some flaws. I thought that the main antagonist was the biggest issue. Kylo works to begin with and I kind of liked the idea of this sith who really did give in to his anger, but he's soon pretty much a joke. I was assuming his face under the helmet would be shocking or meaningful. Instead he took off his helmet to reveal the dread visage of Professor Snape Jnr, the teenage years. Then he proceeded to fail to find the droid - his main task in the movie, be out-forced by an amateur with no training, lose his prisoner, get shot by an angry wookie, get tagged by a stormtrooper using a lightsaber for the second time in his life and then decisively lose to an untrained force user in their first ever fight. But, you know, he did manage to kill an old unarmed relative who wasn't trying to fight him as well as being angry enough to scare some stormtroopers. I think they're going to need to bring him over to the light side fairly quickly in the sequels because he's kind of dead as a potential threat. Also I hope that the hologram of the big baddy, snarko or whatever, is to an exact 1:1 scale and he is 100 feet tall.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:58
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Neurolimal posted:Anakin already knew a way to stop people from dying; it prolly involves not letting them be slaves on an anarchist planet controlled by a slug mob It's too bad he didn't learn that lasers through the body don't stop people from dying, he was just trying to help those poor kids.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:59
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precision posted:Max Landis is being pretty douchey about this movie which is making it hard for me to remember he can be very on point sometimes, and even very recently was pretty amiable and humble on RedLetterMedia (twice!) I feel like he's a guy who is reasonably smart but does not understand that there are limits to his knowledge.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Okay, please give me some sort of insight into Anakin's inner life because it wasn't in the movies. I get that he thought Padme was going to die, I get that he got snubbed by the Jedi Council. What I don't get is who the gently caress he was or what his motivations for doing anything about it were. Revenge of the Sith posted:PALPATINE: We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless; if they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end. First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme. The Jedi are all dangerous, even the children, because they've already been indoctrinated. Not killing the children means risking civil war in the future. It's a pretty logical argument. The only reason to spare the children would be out of mercy. But Anakin just learned mercy is meaningless. Even the Jedi don't believe in mercy when it runs counter to their objectives. Furthermore, opening himself up to dark emotions--and thus, the dark side of the Force--is the only way for him to gain more power and become strong enough to save his wife from certain death. Remember, Anakin has become absolutely certain about all this. It's either his wife or the kids. If he hesitates for even a moment, it may set him back on his quest immeasurably, and Anakin doesn't have the luxury of infinite time. His vision showed Padme dying in childbirth, and her clock is ticking. Vintersorg posted:Oh yeah but it was acted and written like loving garbage. No it wasn't. quote:EDIT: It would have helped if Padme and their love seemed even remotely believable. But it was. Your move, Vintersong.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:02
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quote:The Jedi are relentless; if they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end I guess he wasn't wrong in the end.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:05
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To be fair that was kind of the point of Kylo; he's trying to live up to Vader's false legacy, but falls short and knows that he falls short. He gets sliced up quite a bit by tbe end, so I imagine that he'll end up more disfigured and frightening each episode, eventually becoming Vader-esque by the end.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:05
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RBA Starblade posted:I guess he wasn't wrong in the end. That's Sheev's deal. He tells the truth, he's just careful that it serves his purposes.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:05
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I remember being kinda shocked that Anakin killed those kids. Like, he was sorta sympathetic up to that point but once he does that you lose any sympathy you might have had for him. That said, it makes it all the more satisfying when he gets wrecked by Obi-Wan.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:07
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It was probably shocking the first time, but by the second time you should have gone "this is consistent with Anakin's character as an angry merciless childkiller" The biggest change from pre and post palp Anakin was evil eyes and a black hood
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Dec 23, 2015 02:12
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Cnut the Great posted:Even the Jedi don't believe in mercy when it runs counter to their objectives. If that's true, why did Anakin hesitate before chopping up Dooku? Cnut the Great posted:Furthermore, opening himself up to dark emotions--and thus, the dark side of the Force--is the only way for him to gain more power and become strong enough to save his wife from certain death. This isn't established in the movie. The entire discussion you're referring to happens literally seconds after Anakin pledges himself to Sidious. He doesn't know jack poo poo about the Dark Side. He hasn't even opened himself up to it yet except for the Dooku thing and watching Windu get tossed out a window. edit: moreover, the only thing that infers any of this motivation is the fact that Sidious is literally just expositing this poo poo with dialogue. How does Anakin go from "I have doubts about the Jedi" to "this dude just told me to literally slaughter every single one of them including babies so I guess I'm doing that now" in the span of thirty seconds? Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 02:15
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Because Windu didn't just urge him to do exactly the same thing. That's what he's referring to: the Jedi are willing to murder the Chancellor, his friend, because he's now politically dangerous.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:22
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Arglebargle III posted:Because Windu didn't just urge him to do exactly the same thing. That's what he's referring to: the Jedi are willing to murder the Chancellor, his friend, because he's now politically dangerous. Not politically dangerous, LITERALLY A SITH LORD.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:24
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team overhead smash posted:I thought that the main antagonist was the biggest issue. Kylo works to begin with and I kind of liked the idea of this sith who really did give in to his anger, but he's soon pretty much a joke. I was assuming his face under the helmet would be shocking or meaningful. Instead he took off his helmet to reveal the dread visage of Professor Snape Jnr, the teenage years. Then he proceeded to fail to find the droid - his main task in the movie, be out-forced by an amateur with no training, lose his prisoner, get shot by an angry wookie, get tagged by a stormtrooper using a lightsaber for the second time in his life and then decisively lose to an untrained force user in their first ever fight. But, you know, he did manage to kill an old unarmed relative who wasn't trying to fight him as well as being angry enough to scare some stormtroopers. I think they're going to need to bring him over to the light side fairly quickly in the sequels because he's kind of dead as a potential threat. Sounds like you were expecting Kylo Ren to be like a cross between Darth Maul and Darth Vader. The movie subverts any expectation that Kylo Ren is going to be this ultimate badass by humanizing the poo poo out of him. He's flawed and fucks up, he's mentally torn (he even explicitly says this), and is presented in such a way to show that while gifted and strong in the Force, he's not reaching his potential because of this internal struggle he's having of being seduced by the light side. He was both terrifyingly violent and emotionally vulnerable, and I thought that made him an excellent villain. Regarding him being bested by Rey, this has been repeated ad nausuem, but Kylo Ren is still an apprentice in training. Snoke has yet to fully train him. He's not some Dark Lord of the Sith even if he claimed to be (which he probably would since he's a Sith fanboy). The bowcaster shot was also clearly debilitating, and Finn, a trained soldier from birth, managed to maim him further with a few good lightsaber hits likely thanks to the taser baton training that he underwent as a stormtrooper. Rey has also been played up as someone super strong in the Force at that point in the film, so if anything her ability to subdue Ren, despite his injuries, shows just how strong Rey is, not how weak Kylo Ren is. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 02:24
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