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I think he has a perfect enough reason to become evil in the prequels. I just wish the character was a little bit of a nicer, less creepy angry person. Personal preference. But if I'm watching the downfall of a person in a film, I like to be on their side for the most part.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:15
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Here's a spitball outline. In your take there, Anakin is never really loyal to the Jedi and is against them from the beginning. So you're side-stepping the whole question of writing a good guy (who is a jedi) who believably becomes an evil villain who hunts down the Jedi. Instead of writing a transition from a good guy to an evil guy, you just made it so he hated the Jedi from childhood. So that's kind of avoiding the whole question I raised by never requiring him to change. So to me, him just being a moody off-balance guy starting from adolescence on actually works better. It feels less forced oddly enough. I do have plenty of complaints about the prequels, I don't care for episode 1 or 2, but I just buy what happened in part 3. It helps that Hayden does not come across as a good person, he comes across as a self-absorbed and off-balance person. Kind of like that guy in this Episode VII movie in some ways.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:19
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The prequels would have made more sense if Lucas didn't wuss out on having Anakin age through the prequels. It's way easier to accept a 14 year old Anakin being too busy having space adventures and trying to gently caress a princess to save his mother from slavery (and having a tissy fit after murdering an entire tribe in a child-soldier fit of rage). It's not believable at all for 20+ year old Anakin to not think "hey, I could probably go save my mom now, or have my rich GF buy her"
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Dec 23, 2015 04:20
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CelticPredator posted:I think he has a perfect enough reason to become evil in the prequels. I just wish the character was a little bit of a nicer, less creepy angry person. Personal preference. But if I'm watching the downfall of a person in a film, I like to be on their side for the most part. Pretty much. There's never any real reason to sympathize with Anakin once he becomes an adult. He doesn't fall from grace as much as he whines his way from ground-level into Coruscant's core.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:23
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FallenGod posted:I was just trying to understand the context of your reply, because I didn't recall him killing Windu and knowing that "the Jedi will never stop coming" before he decides to do the dumbest poo poo ever for no reason at all. Wow you really don't remember how he cuts Mace's hand off before attacking the Jedi temple?
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Dec 23, 2015 04:25
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I can barely remember anything about Star Trek (2009), and I have a hunch I'll feel the same way about this movie in a few years. The prequel films were at least memorable, especially Episode 1.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:27
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Heavy Metal posted:In your take there, Anakin is never really loyal to the Jedi and is against them from the beginning. So you're side-stepping the whole question of writing a good guy (who is a jedi) who believably becomes an evil villain who hunts down the Jedi. Instead of writing a transition from a good guy to an evil guy, you just made it so he hated the Jedi from childhood. So that's kind of avoiding the whole question I raised by never requiring him to change. The point of my version is that he has a consistent internal morality that the audience can sympathize with, but still ends up co-opted by the dark side and corrupted by Palpatine into a monster. He believes what he's doing is right, and the audience understands that because it's illustrated from his perspective. He is a good guy. He saves children. Palpatine uses that motivation to build an army of evil behind his back, and the children he tries to save are killed anyway as a result. Thus, he's consumed by the Dark Side and gives in to hatred and self-loathing. In the prequels, his entire character motivation is driven by a forbidden romance sideplot that just does not work for a long list of reasons. It's weak sauce. We needed a reason to root for him, a reason to be able to sympathize with him. We never got that.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:33
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:
The reason is that he doesn't want to see his wife/family die (I think she revealed she was pregnant to him by then), which most people can sympathize about.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:40
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:The point of my version is that he has a consistent internal morality that the audience can sympathize with, but still ends up co-opted by the dark side and corrupted by Palpatine into a monster. He believes what he's doing is right, and the audience understands that because it's illustrated from his perspective. He is a good guy. He saves children. Palpatine uses that motivation to build an army of evil behind his back, and the children he tries to save are killed anyway as a result. Thus, he's consumed by the Dark Side and gives in to hatred and self-loathing. I do think the romance stuff and everything else fell flat in Episode 2. But overall I get what he was going for, and I feel 3 works. In his own oddball way, George was going for The Godfather. The scene of Order 66 where we see Jedi everywhere getting murdered, it was reminiscent of that famous Godfather scene. It's strange that he'd make an epic about a guy who just happens to turn into a sociopath criminal, but that's what he did. And when we're talking about Darth Vader, to me that's not the worst direction. In and of itself, I don't think you need to come up with a neat and tidy way to justify a character who does tons of heinous things. But like anything else, it's personal taste. And indeed there is that thing of the vision of his wife to further tie him to Palpatine. But I do think it's safe to say there's more wrong with that guy than fear of losing his wife. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 04:41
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Bongo Bill posted:I like this twitter. "dad the wookiee used all my garnier fructis" "quit your bitchin son I poured it down the drain just to piss you off" 
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Dec 23, 2015 04:42
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Here's a spitball outline. That's a different Anakin though. Anakin is confused and not secure in his convictions. He lashes out because he's afraid, and then he's horrified by his own actions. His insecurity makes him selfish and his self-loathing makes him push others away. Through II he constantly talks about how he's not good enough, in III he won't shut up about how scared and frustrated he is. One continual theme (of his thoughts) is that he needs to be stronger, both to control the outside world that scares him and the self that disappoints him. He's snapped before, and then one day he again loses control and blows it so completely that there's no turning back. When he kneels down before Palpatine, he is giving up. He's hosed up so completely this time, and the consequences of his actions are potentially so severe, that there's only one path open. Or so he thinks, because Anakin does not like himself or believe in himself. Again, it's a vicious cycle of fear, anger, and despair with him. There are tears in his eyes as he slaughters his way through the Jedi temple: he hates himself for his violent rampage, this time and the time before. The mystical power of his negative emotions grips him and by the time he encounters his wife and best friend he's manic and unhinged, determined to control the galaxy so completely that no one will be able to scare him any more. He lashes out at his wife, and has a brief moment of lucidity, again, horrified by the consequences of his rage. But he immediately blames it on Obi-Wan and attacks. He's so angry that even after he's lost he tries to crawl towards Obi-Wan as a vengeful corpse. And then, when the Emperor wakes him up, he's again full of despair.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:44
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Heavy Metal posted:He seems competent enough to be at least a threat, I mean c'mon now. Plus ol' Snoke said he has to complete his training. So both Rey and Kylo will be "powering up". Now I'm just imagining their final battle to be preceded by 30 minutes of them screaming while glowing as their hairs hairs grow bigger and pointier.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:45
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Arglebargle III posted:Again, it's a vicious cycle of fear, anger, and despair with him. There are tears in his eyes as he slaughters his way through the Jedi temple: I like the way you're putting this, but here's what his eyes looked like there:  The MSJ posted:Now I'm just imagining their final battle to be preceded by 30 minutes of them screaming while glowing as their hairs hairs grow bigger and pointier.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:49
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Arglebargle III posted:That's a different Anakin though. Anakin is confused and not secure in his convictions. He lashes out because he's afraid, and then he's horrified by his own actions. His insecurity makes him selfish and his self-loathing makes him push others away. Through II he constantly talks about how he's not good enough, in III he won't shut up about how scared and frustrated he is. One continual theme (of his thoughts) is that he needs to be stronger, both to control the outside world that scares him and the self that disappoints him. He's snapped before, and then one day he again loses control and blows it so completely that there's no turning back. He only cries when he kills the Separatist leaders, actually, which I found to be a weird choice and I think Lucas should have put that scene after the youngling one and green-screened in the Jedi Temple background instead of the Mustafar background. Anyway, I think the internet has ruined The Force Awakens for me. It's proved impossible to avoid spoilers and opinions for it and I don't know when I'll get to see it, now I feel like I won't be able to make my own mind up about it and will be viewing it through eyes colored by what other people are saying about it.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:51
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:The point of my version is that he has a consistent internal morality that the audience can sympathize with, but still ends up co-opted by the dark side and corrupted by Palpatine into a monster. He believes what he's doing is right, and the audience understands that because it's illustrated from his perspective. He is a good guy. He saves children. Palpatine uses that motivation to build an army of evil behind his back, and the children he tries to save are killed anyway as a result. Thus, he's consumed by the Dark Side and gives in to hatred and self-loathing. Anakin believes what he's doing is wrong. That's why he's so insecure. His character motivation is not driven by forbidden romance, it's driven by fear and self-loathing. Padme is yet another object onto which he projects his fear. Yoda even says "much fear in you" etcetera. If you pay attention, it's true. If Vader was this guy you're talking about he would never say "It is too late for me, my son." Vader says that because he believes it. Under the armor and booming voice, he's still the same sad sack who hates himself and hates his life. This other guy you're talking about believed he was doing the right thing. Palpatine tricks him into being bad? Palpatine is somehow the locus of his fall? Why would he give in to self-loathing?
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Dec 23, 2015 04:55
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Arglebargle III posted:That's a different Anakin though. Anakin is confused and not secure in his convictions. He lashes out because he's afraid, and then he's horrified by his own actions. His insecurity makes him selfish and his self-loathing makes him push others away. Through II he constantly talks about how he's not good enough, in III he won't shut up about how scared and frustrated he is. One continual theme (of his thoughts) is that he needs to be stronger, both to control the outside world that scares him and the self that disappoints him. He's snapped before, and then one day he again loses control and blows it so completely that there's no turning back. Right. A wounded, petulant, self obsessed child who ignores every opportunity he's given for redemption until 30 years and a whole other film series later. Maybe that could have worked in a sort of Holden Caulfield kind of way if it was actually written well. What we got was a soap opera spliced into a Transformers film.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:56
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:What we got was a soap opera spliced into a Transformers film. The '86 Transformers film with Orson Welles? I did hear Orson Welles was considered for the voice of Darth Vader at one point.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:59
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Right. A wounded, petulant, self obsessed child who ignores every opportunity he's given for redemption until 30 years and a whole other film series later. Well, he doesn't fall until the last thirty minutes of III and at that point he must feel it's too late. It's not until he sees what could have been (by his own son in VI) that he can find a path to redemption.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:04
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Actually, I messed that up. Anakin doesn't pass through a vicious cycle of fear, anger, and despair, he suffers in his despair as well and it breeds further fear and anger. Actually, he goes through fear, anger, and suffering.Dr. Fishopolis posted:Right. A wounded, petulant, self obsessed child who ignores every opportunity he's given for redemption until 30 years and a whole other film series later. He ignores opportunities for redemption because he hates himself and doesn't believe he's capable of redemption. This is the guy who (as far as he knows) murdered his wife and two children on the same rage-bender that got his arms and legs chopped off. He tells Luke that he doesn't understand the hold the Dark Side has over him, not because of a mystical energy field makes him evil, but because Luke doesn't understand the depths of his self-loathing. Luke was never traumatized by Vader's crimes in the way that Vader was. And he gets to live with his ruined body as a reminder. His life is awful. He has every reason to hate himself. When he's not bellowing or brutalizing someone, Vader suffers.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:09
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I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread yet, but did anyone else find the soundtrack a bit forgettable? Each of the prequels had a few memorable tracks, but I'm having trouble remembering a standout piece from this one.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:10
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reagan posted:I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread yet, but did anyone else find the soundtrack a bit forgettable? Each of the prequels had a few memorable tracks, but I'm having trouble remembering a standout piece from this one. I really liked Rey's theme, but I'm biased because Daisy Ridley 
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Dec 23, 2015 05:11
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Arglebargle III posted:Actually, I messed that up. Anakin doesn't pass through a vicious cycle of fear, anger, and despair, he suffers in his despair as well and it breeds further fear and anger. Actually, he goes through fear, anger, and suffering. And to bring that back to The Force Awakens, the prequels explain Kylo Ren's character. Kylo Ren is trying to be Darth Vader, and he's struggling and suffering for it, because being Darth Vader is hard and painful. The gap in his understanding is that it cold sucks to be Darth Vader. But he seems to consider it ethically necessary. Very interested to see where they're going with that. reagan posted:I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread yet, but did anyone else find the soundtrack a bit forgettable? Each of the prequels had a few memorable tracks, but I'm having trouble remembering a standout piece from this one. It's less melodic than previous Star Wars, but no less good for that.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:12
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Bongo Bill posted:And to bring that back to The Force Awakens, the prequels explain Kylo Ren's character. Kylo Ren is trying to be Darth Vader, and he's struggling and suffering for it, because being Darth Vader is hard and painful. The gap in his understanding is that it cold sucks to be Darth Vader. But he seems to consider it ethically necessary. Very interested to see where they're going with that. Yeah, the concept of "being Vader is suffering" is completely lost on Ben. Vader's state of existence sucks for literally everyone except Sheev, and is the worst for Vader himself. Ben thinks he can just dark side up, wear a scary mask, and intimidate his underlings and become a badass. But Vader's badassitude comes at the expense of any sort of self-acceptance whatsoever. Which is something Ben so clearly wants/needs in order to function.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:36
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Greatbacon posted:Well, he doesn't fall until the last thirty minutes of III and at that point he must feel it's too late. It's not until he sees what could have been (by his own son in VI) that he can find a path to redemption. I guess sandpeople don't deserve to live anyways, exterminate all sand lovers
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Dec 23, 2015 05:38
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quote:ANAKIN: I killed them. Every last one of them. (crying) Not just the men. But the women. And the children! I wonder what these movies could have been with good actors/screenplay?
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Dec 23, 2015 05:45
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I'm not, like, especially good at narrative construction or critique, and I guess I have little experience in trying to systematically dissect narratives (especially movies!) to see the mechanics that make the clock tick, let alone parse some kind of ur-meaning (lmao SMG). So, disclaimer is out of the way. It feels like a lot of the complaining I've seen re: VII pertains to Rey being able to do Jedi stuff that, at least in theory, requires training to master, and also that Kylo Ren is pathetic and pitiful instead of inscrutable and hyper-competent. I sort of agree with some of the criticism leveled at Rey as a character; part of what made Luke's journey to Jedi-hood was precisely that he doesn't use the Force until the closing minutes of the first movie, and seems to be willfully avoiding its use. Moreover, he's depicted as being fairly strong with said Force, given Vader's remarks in ANH and Yoda's general attitude and the fact that he's a Skywalker and all; but he spend literally an entire movie doing training montages with his second mentor before he gets another crack at being a Jedi, and he gets his rear end handed to him. It isn't until the climax of the trilogy that Luke has come into his own as a very competent Jedi, which is different from being a competent character. Luke got to infiltrate the Death Star as a Stormtrooper! Luke was a loving X-Wing pilot, and a really good one, at that! When he finally becomes a laser sword space wizard, it feels more... earned? I guess? People saying that Rey's journey is literally the same as Luke's from ANH are wrong; I don't think Rey is a "worse" character, just that I feel TFA would have been a much stronger film having her decisively lose her first battle with Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren being depicted the way he is doesn't make sense if you use a surface-level reading of him as a stock villain. He isn't. Given what we know about Star Wars and its baked-in lack of moral ambiguity (or at least lack of commented-on ambiguity by the narrative itself), Kylo can't be both a good guy and a bad guy - at least, not at the same time. Anakin, for example, is a good guy who becomes a bad guy who re-becomes a good guy. The Light Side/Dark Side is essentially a switch that flips and governs your ethical boundaries and justifications. We get triumphant music and a touching scene when Vader dies because he's not Vader anymore, he's Anakin - a Good Guy™. We, the audience, are not intended to be reminded of his wholesale slaughter of innocents and children, nor that he abetted a regime that blew up a pacifist planet and intended to do more. He's a Good Guy™ again, so the Bad Guy™ stuff no longer applies. Kylo Ren seems to fit squarely in this mold. He is a Bad Guy, has a brief moment where he might become a Good Guy, and then the door closes on that opportunity when he kills his father. (The unsubtle shot of the light literally disappearing from the sky as he makes his choice to kill Han is the most eye-roll-inducing part of VII, imo). That said, it seems pretty clear there is a Good Guy inside Kylo Ren; we are meant to explicitly understand that he might be a Good Guy who is only temporarily being a Bad Guy, which is why he gets a lot of the hero's-journey story beats that Rey skips over during her narrative arc. He was never intended to be the inscrutable badass that ANH Darth Vader was; like a lot of stuff in VII, he's supposed to be a mild subversion/update of familiar events/tropes/cliches from IV, in that he feels like a less dichotic version of Anakin/Vader. Where Vader and Anakin honestly feel like two separate characters for most of the prequel/OT, Kylo is both - he's confused and angry, lashes out due to an inability to process his pain (Anakin), but he's also dangerous and capable in a way that prequel Anakin never really seemed to capture (Vader). If Kylo Ren had beaten Rey and the seismic event had essentially intervened to save her instead of him, this isn't even a thing people complain about, imo. That said, the only way Kylo losing and basically getting whupped for most of act II and III of TFA makes sense is for him to return as definitively more powerful than Rey in Episode VIII - the next Empire. If the new trilogy follows the pattern, expect the next movie to feature Rey getting embarrassed in a lightsaber duel with Kylo Ren.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:46
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Kylo did easily defeat her the first time they clashed.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:50
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Kylo did easily defeat her the first time they clashed. Defeat implies a fight.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:51
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Phylodox posted:Defeat implies a fight. She shot at him several times. That's pretty fight-y to me.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:53
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Phylodox posted:Defeat implies a fight. That's exactly it though. Rey didn't put up much of a fight during their initial encounter. She got rekt. It even looked like she was giving up all hope, futily firing at Kylo Ren knowing there's absolutely nothing she can do but be captured.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:57
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During the first Death Star battle, when Vader shows up and shoots down some people the shots inside his cockpit always look like he's adjusting something on his joystick. Does anyone know what that is?
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Dec 23, 2015 06:16
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Poldarn posted:During the first Death Star battle, when Vader shows up and shoots down some people the shots inside his cockpit always look like he's adjusting something on his joystick. Does anyone know what that is? He's adjusting the target I think.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:17
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It's his targeting computer, which he is using.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:19
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turtlecrunch posted:I wonder what these movies could have been with good actors/screenplay? I think it's important to forgive the actors for this. The prequels ruined Jake Lloyd's life, Hayden Christensen's career and Natalie Portman didn't get a role for almost two years before she was able to get out from under the curse. They didn't deserve that. Portman and Christiansen are talented actors who've proven themselves in other projects. Lucas is entirely to blame, and admits as such.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:19
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I just saw this movie and it was loving fantastic. I loved it and it was everything I hoped it would be.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:26
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Bongo Bill posted:It's his targeting computer, which he is using. I always noticed that as a child, and now I read SMGs explanation of that as a character moment. Nice
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Dec 23, 2015 06:29
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I think it's important to forgive the actors for this. The prequels ruined Jake Lloyd's life, Hayden Christensen's career and Natalie Portman didn't get a role for almost two years before she was able to get out from under the curse. They didn't deserve that. Portman and Christiansen are talented actors who've proven themselves in other projects. Lucas is entirely to blame, and admits as such. Yeah, a better question would be what the movies could have been with different directors. The cast was actually pretty stacked for the most part, save for maybe Jake Lloyd.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:33
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Natalie Portman didn't get a role for almost two years before she was able to get out from under the curse. Portman started at Harvard in 1999, which limited her time to take other movies. She graduated in 2003, a year after AOTC had been released, whereupon plenty of movies followed. EDIT: Although I'll shoot my own point down by saying she thinks it hurt: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/natalie-portman-star-wars-hurt-career/story?id=27716974 Icon-Cat fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 06:39
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Yeah 2004 was Garden State, 2006 was V for Vendetta, she didn't really miss much of a beat.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:42
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NomChompsky posted:I just saw this movie and it was loving fantastic. I loved it and it was everything I hoped it would be. Hell yeah! The goods have been delivered.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:42
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