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The designers have all the flexibility in the world because of fully electric drivetrains, and they *still* come up with an ugly, boring squashed-SUV "crossover". It's just a wagon that refuses to say its name, with oversize wheels for pure fashion reasons. Obviously, my objections are entirely aesthetic and therefore entirely subjective - I have opinions about vehicle design and appearance, that's all. But I find that high beltline particularly lame.
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Dec 9, 2015 15:54
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| # ? May 16, 2024 10:41 |
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High beltlines are in part a consequence of high hoods, which are due to pedestrian impact standards, and side impact protection standards. High beltlines lead to slab-sided appearances, which require larger wheels to offset the visual bulk.
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Dec 9, 2015 17:11
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What he said ^^ http://www.caranddriver.com/features/taking-the-hit-how-pedestrian-protection-regs-make-cars-fatter-feature And this is why old cars are better.
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Dec 9, 2015 17:27
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I'll add that it's just a concept car for now, I bet the first EV Audi will look a lot like their current As or Qs.
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Dec 9, 2015 17:33
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I'll take safety over appearance every time (because it's function over form, which I agree with), but that doesn't mean I have to like how it looks. Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. Ola posted:I'll add that it's just a concept car for now, I bet the first EV Audi will look a lot like their current As or Qs.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:23
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88h88 posted:What he said ^^ It's all bunk though, well a copout for better engineering anyways. All you have to do is point at a modern car with a low hood. For example, the BRZ/FRS conform just fine with pedestrian crash standards, and they certainly don't have a high hoodline. You need crush space under the hood before it hits the hard engine. Get the engine lower, get the hood lower. An EV with wheel motors doesn't even NEED to have anything other than empty space under the hood, so they should be able to do low hoodlines just fine. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 23:45
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ExecuDork posted:
The concept is a bit sleek though, isn't it? Audi Qs and other SUVs are all slab sided dreadnoughts. I see in the concept a bit of the Audi Allroad, which is basically a perfect layout for Norway. Not too big for the city, but 4WD and a bit of ground clearance for winter.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:14
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bull3964 posted:It's all bunk though, well a copout for better engineering anyways. All you have to do is point at a modern car with a low hood. For example, the BRZ/FRS conform just fine with pedestrian crash standards, and they certainly don't have a high hoodline. High beltlines are also just fashionable. People see it and think"modern car" while cars with normal greenhouses look "old fashioned" and outdated.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:19
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Ola posted:Not too big for the city, but 4WD and a bit of ground clearance for winter. This is the exact set of requirements every Canadian seems to think is perfect. For the record, that's also the feature list I want, but I want it in a package that doesn't look like somebody made a brick out of wax then left it in the sun for a bit.
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Dec 10, 2015 22:15
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When I was in the UK last month I got to ride in Europe's fastest street-legal EV. Take that, P90D! http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/12/on-the-road-in-the-flux-capacitor-europes-fastest-street-legal-ev/
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Dec 15, 2015 14:18
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Jealous you got to ride in the Flux Capacitor, looks like fun! The P90D is such a hoot to drive though I imagine the FC is more like a roadster in that it would feel much more low tech. So the electric motorcycle thread is archived. Anyone who hangs out in this thread ridden a Zero? Looking at the 2016 models, really like the new FXS on paper as a commuter and tool-around-town bike, I may go test ride one whenever I can find some time. For fun I went and got an insurance quote. I was quoted a reasonable $270/year for a 2016 FX with lots of coverage. Changing the bike to a SR, no other changes at all, increased the quote to over $2K a year. WTF. I sold my last bike a few years ago so not sure how the insurance gap is being treated but I was not expecting that big of a difference.
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Dec 17, 2015 23:14
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drgitlin posted:When I was in the UK last month I got to ride in Europe's fastest street-legal EV. Take that, P90D! http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/12/on-the-road-in-the-flux-capacitor-europes-fastest-street-legal-ev/ Cool article! I linked a vid of it a page or two ago, it seems to be doing the rounds now. It struck me how I had no idea who the guy from Fifth Gear was and that the events of 2015 has made it so that I am much more interested in his garage tinkering than I am in anything the Top Gear guys are about to do. It'll take two or three years perhaps, then Jeremy Clarkson will pretend he was onboard all the way. Tyro posted:Jealous you got to ride in the Flux Capacitor, looks like fun! The P90D is such a hoot to drive though I imagine the FC is more like a roadster in that it would feel much more low tech. I have seen a few around my town, but not the new ones. The FXS seems a great direction for Zero. Should be a very competent commuter if you can recharge the commute at night. The lack of fast charging is a big drawback, big enough that the extended battery or the higher end models don't seem to be worth it. If I got one, it would have to be for short range urban use and since we have a lot of bumpy roads in the city, long throw suspension makes sense. As for the insurance, I've given up on understanding it. Sometimes God wills it that it costs a million.
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Dec 18, 2015 00:19
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Yep that is exactly the use I was picturing for it. The slow charging doesn't bother me too much, but yeah if I was able to throw one option on it would have to be the j1772 adapter with faster charging (not even an option on the FX and DS series I believe?) My bigger concerns are that I travel a lot for work and so it would be sitting fairly regularly, and effects on the battery from temperature fluctuations due to parking outside for extended time periods.
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Dec 18, 2015 12:28
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Just traded my Titan in for a 2016 Leaf since I have no reason to own a truck anymore. Love the little ugly fucker so far. I do have one question that has probably been asked and answered but I scanned back a little and couldn't find it. I have trickle charging available at home and L2 charging available at work, but my manual says I should avoid trickle charging too much. This kinda sucks because my electric company gives pretty awesome rates for charging between 11-6 off hours. Is there any real harm done from trickle charging? I don't know a lot about batteries but I always thought that a trickle charge was the least harmful of the options available. Google has returned mixed responses.
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Dec 18, 2015 12:58
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It's all I've used in two years of having my 2013 Leaf and it hasn't had an issue. No battery loss in 11,000 miles. I'd like to get an L2, though I haven't needed a faster charging yet and it seems like a hassle to convince my apartment.
Phuzun fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 15:33
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Phuzun posted:It's all I've used in two years of having my 2013 Leaf and it hasn't had an issue. No battery loss in 11,000 miles. I'd like to get an L2, though I haven't needed a faster charging yet and it seems like a hassle to convince my apartment. If you're in California, they're legally required to let you install one at your own expense. Not sure about other states. My property company was straight up excited about me making a valuable capital improvement to their building on my dime, even helped me arrange to have it on a separate meter.
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Dec 18, 2015 19:26
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I test-rode a Zero SR, and so while I can't tell you anything about ownership, it was a blast to ride. They're very light and small bikes -- Ninja 250 sort of scale. Not meant for high speeds (and indeed they run out of steam before 100mph) but around town it feels like you're riding a speeder bike. Twist the throttle wherever, whenever, WHOOOOOP it shoots forwards. Great fun.
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Dec 18, 2015 20:38
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Subjunctive posted:If you're in California, they're legally required to let you install one at your own expense. Not sure about other states. Nope, North Dakota. We likely have less than a dozen EVs statewide. I've seen a single Tesla and 4 Leafs in my area, which is the biggest of 3 decent sized metro areas.
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Dec 19, 2015 00:33
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GM has trademarked "Corvette E-Ray" http://blog.caranddriver.com/corvette-e-ray-trademarked-is-an-electrified-vette-coming-plus-our-don-sherman-weighs-in/ I'm thinking if it goes anywhere we're talking about a R8 E-Tron type concept that might become a limited production reality rather than anything they actually plan on building a lot of. Another somewhat reasonable possibility would be a mild plug-in hybrid similar to the latest hypercars where the EV-only range is barely enough to meet whatever minimal standard they're targeting and it's otherwise used to boost acceleration and slightly help city mileage.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:10
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Mange Mite posted:High beltlines are also just fashionable. People see it and think"modern car" while cars with normal greenhouses look "old fashioned" and outdated. High belt lines allow for more reliable triggering of side impact airbags.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:03
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Uncle Jam posted:High belt lines allow for more reliable triggering of side impact airbags. If they wanted low beltlines they would spend engineering budget on lowering them - especially now, as styling is getting a bigger and bigger cut of budgets these days in most automakers. Market research seems to show that people actually like high beltlines. Engineering isn't the only reason beltlines are getting higher.
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Dec 22, 2015 22:52
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SO Ford just said they are going to be making hybrid trucks. Does a hybrid powertrain really make sense in a truck? It seems to me that a big problem is that any additional battery weight is going to cut into payload and that's a bad thing, maybe they are going to make the batteries very light and it will be a very mild hybrid. Maybe an Atkinson cycle V6 truck with a small battery pack would be enough of a boost to city mpg to be worthwhile.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:15
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Throatwarbler posted:Does a hybrid powertrain really make sense in a truck? If you ask me, absolutely not. Hybrid doesn't matter. And in a few years, no gas or diesel powered drivetrain won't either. It doesn't even today, truth be told. When most of truck owners are just using one stupid purchase to haul around their other stupid purchases to different meaningless locations in order to prove to their immediate surroundings they exist louder than other hairless apes, we are talking serious levels of none-ness. Everything you do, hybrid or not, is a horrible waste of energy better made use of by raspberries or squirrels. Unless the truck was electric and what it was carrying wasn't stupid poo poo, then it would matter. And only then.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:44
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GM offered a hybrid* 1500 series back in 2004. It did alright, but GM ended up buying most of them back above market value just to get out from under the support costs for the things. The second generation hybrids are apparently decent trucks, but who the gently caress buys a hybrid truck? It's either a work vehicle, in which case simplicity and low cost of ownership almost always wins, or it's an emotional purchase, in which case "FOUR BY FOUR SIX POINT TWO LITER VEE EIGHT YEEEEHAAAAAWWW" wins most of the time. * Hybrid in this case meaning nothing more than essentially an auto stop/start systen and an in-built AC electrical system with 110vac NEMA 5-15 sockets for power tools and such.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:43
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Ola posted:If you ask me, absolutely not. Hybrid doesn't matter. And in a few years, no gas or diesel powered drivetrain won't either. It doesn't even today, truth be told. When most of truck owners are just using one stupid purchase to haul around their other stupid purchases to different meaningless locations in order to prove to their immediate surroundings they exist louder than other hairless apes, we are talking serious levels of none-ness. Everything you do, hybrid or not, is a horrible waste of energy better made use of by raspberries or squirrels. Unless the truck was electric and what it was carrying wasn't stupid poo poo, then it would matter. And only then. Trucks are a thing (especially for suburban and urban areas). They aren't going away anytime soon. Hybrid/electrifying them absolutely makes sense. Increasing their mileage from 20->30 is a much better gain than taking a car 30->40. Plug-in hybrid with a 30-50 mile range is viable, and would certainly be do-able within the limits of tech and weight constraints. It would use a little more power than a car for the same trip, but using 10% more electricity than a car is a much better impact than burning 2-3 gallons of gas for a shopping trip to the mall. Going full electric is going to take a lot longer to buy in than cars, but a plug-in hybrid would be viable already IMO. MrYenko posted:GM offered a hybrid* 1500 series back in 2004. It did alright, but GM ended up buying most of them back above market value just to get out from under the support costs for the things. The second generation hybrids are apparently decent trucks, but who the gently caress buys a hybrid truck? It's either a work vehicle, in which case simplicity and low cost of ownership almost always wins, or it's an emotional purchase, in which case "FOUR BY FOUR SIX POINT TWO LITER VEE EIGHT YEEEEHAAAAAWWW" wins most of the time. ilkhan fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 04:52
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Throatwarbler posted:SO Ford just said they are going to be making hybrid trucks. Does a hybrid powertrain really make sense in a truck? It seems to me that a big problem is that any additional battery weight is going to cut into payload and that's a bad thing, maybe they are going to make the batteries very light and it will be a very mild hybrid. Maybe an Atkinson cycle V6 truck with a small battery pack would be enough of a boost to city mpg to be worthwhile. The flip side is that very few half-ton truck owners get anywhere near max in-bed payload. More probably get close to max tow weight but even then not enough to matter. I'd argue that a truck makes a great hybrid because it won't be impacted nearly as much by the weight.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:58
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ilkhan posted:Manufacturers have a lot more experience with hybrids and electric powertrains than they did in the 2000s, and a much more supportive public. They can do it if they want to. Sounds like Ford wants to. Absolutely. A hybrid EcoBoost will probably be a really cool truck, I just expect similarly lukewarm levels of consumer interest.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:03
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IOwnCalculus posted:The flip side is that very few half-ton truck owners get anywhere near max in-bed payload. More probably get close to max tow weight but even then not enough to matter. I'd argue that a truck makes a great hybrid because it won't be impacted nearly as much by the weight. I wonder why Toyota hasn't done a hybrid Tundra, given that they've got the IP to a lot of hybrid technologies. Could be capacity constrained. Ford has a deal with Toyota where they are allowed to use essentially the Prius drivetrain in their hybrids, because Ford was also contesting the ownership of that IP, maybe that's why they are going ahead. In the mean time I wonder how much more lightweighting there can be for trucks. Carbon fiber roofs and hoods perhaps.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:11
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MrYenko posted:Absolutely. A hybrid EcoBoost will probably be a really cool truck, I just expect similarly lukewarm levels of consumer interest. Theoretically there would be no point in having a turbo charged engine with a hybrid drivetrain, because it would be better to up the ampage of the electric drive when you need power instead of having to deal with all the off-boost inefficiency of a turbo engine. In fact 99%* of hybrid drivetrains on the market today use NA Atkinson cycle engines, which deliberately sacrifice high RPM power for efficiency for this reason. Ford and Toyota vehicles that have turbocharged engine variants and hybrid cariants like the Escape and the NX do not use the turbo engine with the hybrid powertrain. Unless you are using the electric drive purely to boost power, without consideration for efficiency like the exotic supercars do. *VW hybrids have turbo engines. VW is also terrible at making cars. Coincidence?
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Dec 23, 2015 05:18
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Throatwarbler posted:Theoretically there would be no point in having a turbo charged engine with a hybrid drivetrain, because it would be better to up the ampage of the electric drive when you need power instead of having to deal with all the off-boost inefficiency of a turbo engine. In fact 99%* of hybrid drivetrains on the market today use NA Atkinson cycle engines, which deliberately sacrifice high RPM power for efficiency for this reason. Ford and Toyota vehicles that have turbocharged engine variants and hybrid cariants like the Escape and the NX do not use the turbo engine with the hybrid powertrain. Unless you are using the electric drive purely to boost power, without consideration for efficiency like the exotic supercars do. Except if the owner of the hybrid truck actually occasionally uses it like a truck, then the gasoline engine needs to be able to haul that 9000 pound trailer up the hill even when the batteries are tapped out, so they can't really put a crappy engine in an F-150 hybrid and still keep the ability to function as a full-on truck when needed under all circumstances.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:00
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series hybrid f150 ah yup
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Dec 23, 2015 06:06
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The Locator posted:Except if the owner of the hybrid truck actually occasionally uses it like a truck, then the gasoline engine needs to be able to haul that 9000 pound trailer up the hill even when the batteries are tapped out, so they can't really put a crappy engine in an F-150 hybrid and still keep the ability to function as a full-on truck when needed under all circumstances. OK, so use a large enough naturally aspirated engine to do the work without the batteries, increase efficiency at partial load using the electric drivetrain. Now that you can have engines switch back and forth between Atkinson and Otto cycle using VVT, I still don't think there's a reason to use turbocharging anywhere in the equation.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:29
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blugu64 posted:series hybrid f150 ah yup Would be so rad. Electric drivetrain so 4wd is a breeze to implement without pesky driveshafts, max torque from a standstill. Bonus if using a diesel generator allows smoke tune bros to enjoy hybrid tech at last.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:34
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wilfredmerriweathr posted:Would be so rad. Electric drivetrain so 4wd is a breeze to implement without pesky driveshafts, max torque from a standstill. Youll probably see this in a military vehicle first
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Dec 23, 2015 10:16
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wilfredmerriweathr posted:Would be so rad. Electric drivetrain so 4wd is a breeze to implement without pesky driveshafts, max torque from a standstill. As long as the generator exhausts into the cab (and there is room on the front for a moustache).
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Dec 23, 2015 12:07
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Mange Mite posted:Youll probably see this in a military vehicle first  One of the reasons the german army went with the Henschel design over the Porsche was that Germany had a shortage of copper during the war, and the electric motors in the Porsche design required a lot of it. Collateral Damage fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 13:56
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ilkhan posted:And this is why the rest of the country calls you eco-nuts. I prefer the term enviro-mentally challenged. Joking aside, a truck is a pretty excellent platform for 4WD battery electric. But plugin hybrids are more likely to sell at the moment, and people seem to be good at actually plugging them in and trying to drive electric when possible. There are also hybrids on the market now which have the front wheels driven by the ICE and the rear wheel driven by an electric motor. It's not very powerful, but works well at low speed with low traction, snow, gravel etc.
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Dec 23, 2015 15:04
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Volvo and several other commercial truck (cargo, not pickup) manufacturers make hybrids already. Apparently they're great for heavy loads because they remove the need for the transmission to shift a dozen times in the first 100 meters of travel from a standstill, so you can have a much simpler (cheaper) transmission without all the super low range gears.
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Dec 23, 2015 15:09
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Well that was something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY_AOA-F0Jw
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Dec 23, 2015 22:13
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Ola posted:I prefer the term enviro-mentally challenged. Joking aside, a truck is a pretty excellent platform for 4WD battery electric. But plugin hybrids are more likely to sell at the moment, and people seem to be good at actually plugging them in and trying to drive electric when possible. There are also hybrids on the market now which have the front wheels driven by the ICE and the rear wheel driven by an electric motor. It's not very powerful, but works well at low speed with low traction, snow, gravel etc. Hell, the Tesla Model X is rated to tow 5000 pounds, and it's based on the same chassis as the Model S. The problem is that if you want something which still has decent range under heavy load (as opposed to just a penis extension), you're going to need one hell of a battery pack. Battery prices are going to have to come WAY down (probably towards $100/kWh) before electric pickup trucks are remotely cost effective.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:19
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