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elestupendojudio posted:Sorry my dude, but you got the wrong movie there. That's from when he kills the sandpeople in episode II. Younglings in the Jedi temple get their poo poo wrecked in the next movie, and he most definitely doesn't cry.  It's just eyeball sweat amirite
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Dec 23, 2015 20:53
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Arglebargle III posted:You have failed intertextuality this time. The hand is indeed a fascist symbol from the first half of the 20th century. I haven't encountered that before, unless you just mean the infamous Nazi salute. We should be very specific: the recurring imagery in the film is not just of a hand, but a red hand - "you probably don't recognize me because of my red arm". That's communism: the red hand of the worker, also represented as a red, five-pointed star. The superweapon in Force Awakens is specifically a device that - through the work of the stormtroopers, they underline - converts the 'natural' sun into this aggressive, red, hand-star. A literal Red Dawn. This is intermixed with HYDRA/SPECTRE imagery - as in the fictional supervillains from Captain America and James Bond. Hence the spherical octopus monsters. These are neither Nazis nor Ruskies, but something purer. It's the pure power of the inner party in 1984. However! The First Order do not follow Palpatine, with his "unlimited POWER!!!" They follow Vader's spirit - that of Vader in ESB, who sought to overthrow the Empire in the name of Justice. So they stand for power to the workers. This is why people have noted many parallels with Episode 5 in this film. It is essentially an attempt at 'fixing' Empire Strikes Back by making Vader bad again. You have A New Hope's upbeat "blow up vader!" stuff mixed with Empire's harsh reveal that the Vader is a good guy. So the message is "blow up that good guy!" The opening crawl of this film tells us that Leia is trying to bring peace to the galaxy - but Christ does not bring peace but a sword. That's not to say that the First Order are the good guys. They are a misguided sort. Hux is a dipshit. The point is in Episode 3's amazing line: there are heroes on both sides. More to the point, Han is correct that Snoke is exploiting something good: the workers' solidarity, and so-on. Kylo is not 'pathetic'. He is sympathetic because he's torn between his love for his parents and the fact that they're wrong. Family is used as a weapon against him, and he sees no way out. That's to say he is not 'Anakin done better', because Anakin was a mere fascist with mommy issues. Anakin had to be forced into becoming Vader, while Kylo is trying to be like Vader - and being like Vader is a good thing. He's a good kid who has been failed by all around him. Steve2911 posted:Reminder: A lot of people think Dark Maul is a great character, and that the prequels would have been amazing if he'd lived through them. He is. One thing Force Awakens totally lacks is the visual storytelling to have a character immediately understood without dialogue. Cuts happen too fast for all those side-characters to perform, so you'll never get a Tarkin or Porkins or Greedo out of this. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 20:54
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ImpAtom posted:I like how Mr. Bibs solution is Darth fuckin' Maul because that was such a great character. Darth Maul was more threatening than Kylo Ren. Sure, his character was as deep as
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Dec 23, 2015 20:55
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I guess. I don't really accept the prequels as defining Vader's character, at least when it comes to how he's perceived in the OT. He was a stand-in for Ming the Merciless who got a more interesting arc once people responded to his character design so strongly after ANH. Well of course Vader's character isn't how he's perceived. That's the core concept here. Even V and VI, before we know his full backstory, Vader is revealed to be a physical wreck who doubts himself. People don't know that because he wears a mask. At least Kylo still has all his limbs. Notably, Kylo communes with the mask of Vader. Vader the man is absent.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:56
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Star Wars The Thread Awakens: "I hate how TFA was a rehash of ANH, but why isn't Kylo Ren the exact same character as Darth Vader?!!?"
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Dec 23, 2015 20:56
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Maul was more threatening than Kylo Ren. Sure, his character was as deep as I'm sorry, are you arguing that Darth Maul worked as a character?
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Dec 23, 2015 20:56
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Maul was more threatening than Kylo Ren. Sure, his character was as deep as He is threatening to you because he has a scary face and a big lightsaber. You are, in essence, looking for the same thing Kylo Ren is. I suspect he isn't threatening to you because you are in the same mindset as him. You want the big scary guy with the mean voice and the red lightsaber and he's so cool. He has all the cool bits so why isn't he the coolest? Why don't people treat him like Darth Vader?
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Dec 23, 2015 20:57
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I prefer when my villains are painted like Beelzebub so I know they're threatening.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:58
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ImpAtom posted:I like how Mr. Bibs solution is Darth fuckin' Maul because that was such a great character. Again, any deference to Tarkin(and there's honestly very little) is because Tarkin is the commander of the Death Star operation, and Vader is helping him out with it. Tarkin doesn't defer to Vader, you're right, but that doesn't mean Vader is a flunky. And I still haven't seen TFA so I don't care about Hux and Ren, but even if I did, the relationship between two distinct characters in a movie made almost forty years later by almost none of the same people has no real bearing on what the relationship between two characters in ANH is. I'm not arguing about Hux and Ren, I'm arguing that the notion that Vader wasn't a significant force in the Empire isn't borne out by the script for the first movie and the fact that Tarkin isn't subordinate him and he actually listens to Tarkin doesn't erase that.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:59
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ImpAtom posted:He has all the cool bits so why isn't he the coolest? Why don't people treat him like Darth Vader? Kylo stop posting, we know it's you
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Dec 23, 2015 20:59
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Maul was more threatening than Kylo Ren. Sure, his character was as deep as Holy loving poo poo, dude. Stop.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:00
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ImpAtom posted:He is threatening to you because he has a scary face and a big lightsaber. You are, in essence, looking for the same thing Kylo Ren is. No, I'm a member of the audience looking for a threatening bad guy. Darth Maul fits that, Kylo doesn't. If I don't see any fleshing out of Maul in the movie, I can live with that. ImpAtom posted:You want the big scary guy with the mean voice and the red lightsaber and he's so cool. He has all the cool bits so why isn't he the coolest? Kylo lacks the cool bits, though. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 21:01
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Zodack posted:Star Wars The Thread Awakens: "I hate how TFA was a rehash of ANH, but why isn't Kylo Ren the exact same character as Darth Vader?!!?" Hahhaha nice.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:01
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"The bad guys need to be super threatening" and "the characters need to be likable" are Saturday morning cartoon logic. Kylo Ren was super cool and the key thing is tension that the good guys might die/fail in some aspect like when Han Solo dies or the planets get blown up, those are things that affect the audience even if you use a dumb technicality like "oh well he got lucky" or whatever.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:02
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ImpAtom posted:Vader is absolutely portrayed as his lacky. When Vader chokes a guy he releases him when Tarkin demands him do so. He mocks Vader's religion to his face. When Vader wants to let the Falcon go Tarkin only reluctantly allows him to do it and warns him he's taking a risk. Tarkin is always portrayed as the leader in the situation. It's a relationship intentionally mirrored by Hux and Ren in the new film. It's not so much that Tarkin is officially above Vader in the hierarchy. It's more that Tarkin and Vader both work directly for the Emperor, and the Emperor put Tarkin in charge of the Death Star, so Vader has to do what Tarkin says or else the Emperor will get pissed off at him. It's also shown in TCW that Anakin has known Tarkin since the Clone Wars and holds some genuine regard for him and his ruthless methods. Kind of a subtle distinction, but even the 1976 novelization portrays their relationship as more a rivalry between equals than a leader/henchman situation. It still shows Vader as pathetic, because he clearly isn't the all-powerful bad guy he would like to be. He has an inner monologue in the novelization where he laments how he has grander designs for the galaxy than any of the peons surrounding him on the Death Star could ever possibly imagine, and yet he still has to waste his time playing stupid office politics with them.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:03
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I thought Kylo Ren was an amazing character. He's very obviously someone who is embracing darkness and evil against his better judgement, against his wishes, and even against his own nature. He obviously feels that strength is required of him (but why?), and fallaciously equates strength with power. His embrace of the dark side is unique in the Star Wars canon because it's genuinely altruistic. He's not doing it to save the ones he loves. In fact, he's forced to shun and even destroy his family. The big question going forward for me is why does he feel like he needs to do this? Did he have a premonition of danger? Did Snoke convince him somehow?
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Dec 23, 2015 21:07
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Darth Maul, Kylo Ren, and Darth Vader are all equally good characters. Kylo simply gets the most complex backstory. We shouldn't confuse complexity with nuance.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:08
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MisterBibs posted:Then have him be the apprentice to an Actually Threatening Bad Guy who gets offed, whose death pushes him to be that Bad Guy. That is why you fail
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Dec 23, 2015 21:09
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Kylo Ren is dope
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Dec 23, 2015 21:10
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MisterBibs posted:Kylo lacks the cool bits, though. He has a dramatic mask, a spooky voice and a flaming illogical lightsaber. Clearly he is cool. He is cool like Darth Vader. Why don't you see him like Darth Vader? Kylo Ren has every cool bit that Darth Maul does.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:10
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I'm way more interested in why Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side than who Rey is.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:10
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MisterBibs posted:No, I'm a member of the audience looking for a threatening bad guy. Darth Maul fits that, Kylo doesn't. If I don't see any fleshing out of Maul in the movie, I can live with that. Kylo, as presented on screen, is incredibly threatening. It's a different manner of threatening than what we get from, say, Maul, and a different sort of threatening from, say, Vader. Just because a character isn't a carbon copy of another character does not mean they are nothing alike.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:11
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Darth Maul, Kylo Ren, and Darth Vader are all equally good characters. Kylo simply gets the most complex backstory. I really don't want you to explain, but I'm going to ask you to explain anyway.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:12
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The more I think about Ren, the less the "Vader Fanboy" moniker fits. He doesn't necessarily admire Vader or want to be him. He sees Vader as the embodiment of what he needs to be. He sees him as inspiration towards a goal he doesn't desire.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:14
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Hollismason posted:I'm way more interested in why Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side than who Rey is. Yeah, Rey is insanely boring. The Finn/Poe bromance is pretty good, but I found his whole 'gleefully murder the boss' thing rather offputting. It's like a facade cracks and we're watching Falling Down.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:16
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ImpAtom posted:He has a dramatic mask, a spooky voice and a flaming illogical lightsaber. I suppose we have differing standards for "dramatic". And "spooky". And a malfunctioning lightsaber. jivjov posted:Kylo, as presented on screen, is incredibly threatening. It's a different manner of threatening than what we get from, say, Maul, and a different sort of threatening from, say, Vader. Just because a character isn't a carbon copy of another character does not mean they are nothing alike. So you're arguing the existence of some anti-threateningness that somehow translates to Maul/Vader levels of threat? Were you as intimidated by Bad Cop in the Lego Movie kicking chairs around? Because that's Kylo Ren. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 21:17
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MisterBibs posted:No, I'm a member of the audience looking for a threatening bad guy. Darth Maul fits that, Kylo doesn't. If I don't see any fleshing out of Maul in the movie, I can live with that. Oh I see, so you're that childish to think that a villain is threatening purely based on looks - like its a goddamn action figure. You'd rather they remove all the interesting parts about Kylo Ren and make him a one-dimensional (AKA boring) villain. What do you think this is? A Marvel movie? MisterBibs posted:So you're arguing the existence of some anti-threateningness that somehow translates to Maul/Vader levels of threat? What the gently caress does this even mean? Kylo Ren is threatening because of how mentally unstable and powerful he is. He is scary in the same way as those high-school and movie theater shooters that we've seen in the news.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:21
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Phylodox posted:The more I think about Ren, the less the "Vader Fanboy" moniker fits. He doesn't necessarily admire Vader or want to be him. He sees Vader as the embodiment of what he needs to be. He sees him as inspiration towards a goal he doesn't desire. Well, he also thinks he's talking to his ghost so that's something on the side of "he doesn't want to be Vader". He says he wants to finish what Vader started, presumably wiping out all the Jedi (aka Luke) or converting Luke to the Dark Side? I wouldn't be surprised if he sort of ignores the part where Vader killed his own master to save someone he loves, or basically sees that as a failing of Vader he wants to correct. Maybe he's more attached to whatever he thinks Vader's ultimate plan was and he thinks Vader is speaking to him and guiding him through the plan, rather than simply liking Vader.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:22
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Jonny_Rocket posted:You'd rather they remove all the interesting parts about Kylo Ren and make him a one-dimensional (AKA boring) villain. What do you think this is? A Marvel movie? Yeah, Marvel's movies have had more threatening bad guys than Kylo.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:24
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turtlecrunch posted:Well, he also thinks he's talking to his ghost so that's something on the side of "he doesn't want to be Vader". He says he wants to finish what Vader started, presumably wiping out all the Jedi (aka Luke) or converting Luke to the Dark Side? I wouldn't be surprised if he sort of ignores the part where Vader killed his own master to save someone he loves, or basically sees that as a failing of Vader he wants to correct. Unless by 'finish what he started' he means destroying the Sith and he's actually on a covert mission to kill Snoke and he had to kill Han to keep up the pretence and get closer to him. He is the Snape of Star Wars I have decided.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:26
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MisterBibs posted:I suppose we have differing standards for "dramatic". And "spooky". And a malfunctioning lightsaber. I am sure when you aren't behind the safety of your computer screen there is plenty of things that intimidate the hell out of you. I personally don't get intimidated by movie bad guys and mainly care if they are dangerous enough to hurt the characters I am rooting for. Ren comes off as imbalanced and ready to snap and do something dangerous at any moment. This directly pays off when he murders the beloved character Han Solo. EDIT: which is more than most bad guys in movies basically ever do, btw
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Dec 23, 2015 21:27
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Steve2911 posted:Unless by 'finish what he started' he means destroying the Sith and he's actually on a covert mission to kill Snoke and he had to kill Han to keep up the pretence and get closer to him. lol of course!
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Dec 23, 2015 21:30
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Phylodox posted:The more I think about Ren, the less the "Vader Fanboy" moniker fits. He doesn't necessarily admire Vader or want to be him. He sees Vader as the embodiment of what he needs to be. He sees him as inspiration towards a goal he doesn't desire. What's up with the mask?
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Dec 23, 2015 21:31
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MisterBibs posted:I suppose we have differing standards for "dramatic". And "spooky". And a malfunctioning lightsaber. This is how Kylo Ren looks without his characterization.  If your argument isn't that this is a character designed to look threatening and cool then you are incorrect and ignoring how he was presented before the film. In fact, here is a comparison to Darth Revan, popular video game character:  Kylo Ren, if he never spoke, would be a dramatic dark figure with an intimidating mask wielding a lightsaber that is goofy and illogical but designed to look cool. The 'malfunctioning' part is entirely a re-contextualization of the imagery involved. At first blush it looks like a 'cool' lightsaber much like Darth Maul's ridiculous double-saber. It is only with the context of the film (and some outside source material that is genuinely unimportant) that it becomes clear that it is a ridiculous attempt to look cool because it's a crappy poorly-designed weapon. The entire point of Ren is that he is trying to be this scary terrifying character and failing at it. Someone on twitter compared him to a school shooter and there is an element of that to him. He is at once violent, unhinged and outcast and desperately trying to clad himself in 'cool' imagery that is at once ridiculous and yet offputting because of who it is attached to. Someone wearing a black trenchcoat to look cool when they're a 90 pound skinny nobody is laughable until he pulls a gun out. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 21:34
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Steve2911 posted:I really don't want you to explain, but I'm going to ask you to explain anyway. Darth Maul is a great silent performance. He glides around like a shark, says only enough for us to know his silence is deliberate. He's not going to give you a speech. He's not going to tell you why. He just says "I represent revenge", and then proceeds with 10 minutes of visual storytelling, mixing Kung Fu movie visuals with something like interpretive dance. Darth Maul is not animalistic; he is using the face-paint to channel some kind of animal spirit to avenge his red-skinned brothers. Maul is an artist.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:36
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We don't really even know how much Kylo Ren actually knows about Vader. Did Luke tell him the whole story? Is he just piecing together the stories and myths he has heard? Did Snoke tell him? Obviously he knows he is related to him, but it's interesting to think about how his view of Vader is probably very biased and likely misinformed.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:36
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turtlecrunch posted:
Honestly and truly, I'm not just loving around, but in that scene I thought it was sweat. Still looks like sweat to me. We should call George and ask what the best interpretation is.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:38
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ImpAtom posted:This is how Kylo Ren looks without his characterization. I can't parse this sentence. In that picture, he looks kinda threatening, janky saber aside. All sense of that is lost in-movie. ImpAtom posted:At first blush it looks like a 'cool' lightsaber much like Darth Maul's ridiculous double-saber. It is only with the context of the film (and some outside source material that is genuinely unimportant) that it becomes clear that it is a ridiculous attempt to look cool because it's a crappy poorly-designed weapon. No, his janky lightsaber always felt janky. Contrast with a double lightsaber, which looks more threatening than a normal saber, and its reveal in the trailers at the time was a crime. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 21:43
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Rurea posted:We don't really even know how much Kylo Ren actually knows about Vader. Did Luke tell him the whole story? Is he just piecing together the stories and myths he has heard? Did Snoke tell him? The movie gives the distinct impression that all of the characters from the preceding movies have become mythologized. It's probably hard to tell what's true and what's legend at this point.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:44
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His lightsaber is supposed to be a janky piece of junk, the visual dictionary or whatever explains this. The Kybar crystal is damaged so the crossguard/quillions vent excess plasma from the main blade, which is already unstable. Also he knows the whole story of Vader but seeks to succeed where Vader failed - Vader was seduced by the light side. This is all from scans of an official book that have been released onlin, some of which have been posted in this thread.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:48
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