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The whole loving point of Kylo Ren is that he tries to appear threatening and scary and badass and yet he is not. How is that hard to grasp
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Dec 23, 2015 21:48
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MisterBibs posted:Contrast with a double lightsaber, which looks more threatening than a normal saber Not really. It looks like a lit up prop for a kung fu movie. Kylo's lightsabre might be poo poo, but it looks like a huge, devastating claymore.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:48
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beejay posted:The whole loving point of Kylo Ren is that he tries to appear threatening and scary and badass and yet he is not. How is that hard to grasp You don't understand Darth Vader was all of those things and Kylo is not so obviously he is poo poo
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Dec 23, 2015 21:50
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I'm not in a position to make a huge effortpost atm, but I should point out: The book people are using to call Ren's lightsaber bad refers to the setup as an "ancient sith design". This suggests to me that it's less a broken attempt to look cool, and more that it's a design to stabilize broken crystals (for example, to be used by Sith resistance when Jedi control working, not salvaged crystals). Seeing as the only other saber in the film is Luke's, its possible that functional, perfect crystals simply no longer exist.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:52
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MisterBibs posted:I suppose we have differing standards for "dramatic". And "spooky". And a malfunctioning lightsaber. No, I'm arguing that there are different types of threatening. Maul, especially if you consider his canonical backstory from Clone Wars, is a trained assassin and tracker. He is not subtle, he is a killer. He will find you and capture or kill you. Vader, on the other hand, has a two-fold set of threat. On the outside he has no face. Just an expressionless mask. He punishes failure with death, and is second only to the Emperor in terms of force mastery until Luke comes along. Then on the inside, we know he is a man with nothing to lose. His whole fall to darkness was to save his wife and unborn child(ren). And he (to his knowledge) fails completely. Now he has nothing to truly live for, as he swore himself to the service of Sheev and (again, until Luke comes along) has no real reason to break that service. Then we come to Kylo Ben. Who only knows the exterior of Vader. He only knows the expressionless badass cyborg. Not the tortured man beneath. He tries so very hard to emulate that, without understanding the factors that led to Vader being that way. He punishes threats to his authority with pain and death. Tekka mouthed off to him and was cut down. Poe resisted him, and was tortured. But he's also unhinged. He has both the Force and a lightsaber on a hair trigger. He acts like a petulant child when he doesn't get what he wants. That wouldn't be so scary, except he has a multitude of ways to wreck those around him. He is a broken man, but broken in ways that make him very dangerous to those around him
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Dec 23, 2015 21:54
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MisterBibs posted:I can't parse this sentence. In that picture, he looks kinda threatening, janky saber aside. All sense of that is lost in-movie. Yes. That is in fact the point. He is a threatening figure in still imagery before you find out more about his character. Exactly like Darth Vader. Darth Vader becomes less threatening and more pitiable the more you know about him. By the third film he's honestly kind of sad and the last moments we spent with him are as an old scarred man regretting the failures of his life. The prequel trilogy further does that (intentionally or not) by showing us Darth Vader as a literal precocious 9 year old Ren, instead, is threatening because he idolizes that scary imagery and uses it to costume his own hosed-up mindset. He isn't threatening because he's strong and intimidating. He's threatening because he's angry and easily manipulated and desperate to prove himself and will hurt people to do so while trying to cloak himself in grand imagery that he wears poorly. If you don't think this is a legitimate scary person then you should check the news more often.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:54
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Neurolimal posted:Seeing as the only other saber in the film is Luke's, its possible that functional, perfect crystals simply no longer exist. Allegedly Starkiller was built on Illum so... yeah.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:55
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edit: Dammit. ^^^Neurolimal posted:I'm not in a position to make a huge effortpost atm, but I should point out: Also, people have theorized, based on the map of the galaxy that was released, that Starkiller Base was actually made out of the planet lightsaber crystals were harvested (mined?) from. So in making the base, the galaxy also may have lost it's source of crystals. We may have just seen the last two lightsabers in the galaxy. Or, I dunno, there's probably more Jedi or Sith out there with some.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:55
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beejay posted:The whole loving point of Kylo Ren is that he tries to appear threatening and scary and badass and yet he is not. How is that hard to grasp The type of scariness Kylo is trying to exude and the type of scariness that he actually does exude are very very different things.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:55
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Maul was more threatening than Kylo Ren. Sure, his character was as deep as
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Dec 23, 2015 21:55
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ImpAtom posted:Yes. That is in fact the point. He is a threatening figure in still imagery before you find out more about his character. Exactly like Darth Vader. Darth Vader doesn't lose his threat when he walks on screen. It increases. Kylo's drops.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:57
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thrawn527 posted:edit: Dammit. ^^^ I never got the impression that crystals had to come from Ilum, that was just the traditional place the rigid and dogmatic Jedi order went to.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:57
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Is this Illum and lightsaber crystals junk actually important or is it EU
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Dec 23, 2015 21:58
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beejay posted:The whole loving point of Kylo Ren is that he tries to appear threatening and scary and badass and yet he is not. How is that hard to grasp It's too hard of a concept for MisterBibs to comprehend. The only villains he likes are visually imposing and purely threatening based on their actions, not motivations or complexity of character. His favorite Marvel villain must be Malekith, who is completely one-dimensional but looks totally evil. Kylo Ren is (more or less) a mentally unstable Sith fanatic/extremist. His lightsaber is based off of ancient designs, and practically idolizes everything about Darth Vader, his grandfather. Much like Darth Vader who saw the Emperor as a father figure/role model, Kylo sees Snoke as his and seems desperate to do whatever it takes to please him. How is that not scary?
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Dec 23, 2015 21:59
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Vader doesn't lose his threat when he walks on screen. It increases. Kylo's drops. It really doesn't though. The more you see of Kylo, the more your perception of him shifts. He goes from being Vader-style threatening and becomes his own character.
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Dec 23, 2015 21:59
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beejay posted:Is this Illum and lightsaber crystals junk actually important or is it EU Both? Ilum shows up in canonical sources.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:00
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jivjov posted:I never got the impression that crystals had to come from Ilum, that was just the traditional place the rigid and dogmatic Jedi order went to. It's all probably EU stuff by now but yeah iirc there are plenty of other places to get a power source. Just nothing so immediate and convenient.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:00
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beejay posted:Is this Illum and lightsaber crystals junk actually important or is it EU It's come up on the cartoon shows, I'm pretty sure, which are canon. But for the movies, nah, they're not actually important. Or at least, not as important as the concept of making the lightsaber in the first place. Just interesting flavor. They've never once been mentioned in one of the 7 episodic movies.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:00
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Vader doesn't lose his threat when he walks on screen. It increases. Kylo's drops. Right, you haven't seen ESB or RotJ. I get it now.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:00
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Steve2911 posted:Right, you haven't seen ESB or RotJ. I get it now. The only time Vader is pathetic is at the end of his duel with Luke in Jedi, though?
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Dec 23, 2015 22:03
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MisterBibs posted:The only time Vader is pathetic is at the end of his duel with Luke in Jedi, though? Or how about when he metaphorically sells his soul to the devil for a deal that ends up blowing up in his face? Or when he slaughters an entire village?
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Dec 23, 2015 22:05
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MisterBibs posted:Darth Vader doesn't lose his threat when he walks on screen. It increases. Kylo's drops. Darth Vader loses his threat with every piece of information we gain about him. He begins as a blank slate, a bad man in black who killed Luke's father. With every bit of information we get the mystique is ripped away. His intimidating black suit is a living respirator. His ominous breathing is him barely remaining alive. He is more machine than man and doesn't understand the Force. He gets blasted off into space by a non-Force Users despite his insistence than the Force is stronger than any weapon. Then we find out he is Luke's father and a pitiable slave to the Emperor. By RotJ he is no longer threatening. He is sad. We want Luke to redeem him, not defeat him. The prequel trilogies only further emphasize that Anakin Skywalker is not a cool dude who is so badass. he is a sad, used up, pitiable old man who was used from childhood by everyone around him and only finds redemption in the true love of his son who he maimed.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:08
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Star Wars has never been scary, ever.jivjov posted:Or how about when he metaphorically sells his soul to the devil for a deal that ends up blowing up in his face? Or when he slaughters an entire village? That's Anakin.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:08
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jivjov posted:Or how about when he metaphorically sells his soul to the devil for a deal that ends up blowing up in his face? Or when he slaughters an entire village? The first is merely  ; the second is a legitimate threatening moment.Give Kylo a moment like the Sand People one, and he tries wailing on a bantha before being crushed by its mother. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 22:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Star Wars has never been scary, ever.  Actually, I was scared of Darth Vader when I was eight years old, soooooo
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Dec 23, 2015 22:10
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Yeah, crystals aren't a movie fact or important (the firstmost reason for why Kylo has an unstable and dangerous lightsaber is "because Kylo is an unstable and dangerous person"), just pointing out a EU observation that contrasts with a previous EU observation.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:12
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Somewhere in a bizarre alternate universe everyone is complaining about Kylo Ren being an unoriginal Darth Vader clone
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Dec 23, 2015 22:13
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The nice thing about Ren's saber is that you really don't need an EU explanation for it. The film does a good job of making it look poorly made and lovely. At first blush it is like "wow, that lightsaber blade is all crackling and dramatic" but they're pretty careful to animate it in a way that really emphasizes that it's poorly made and unstable, especially when contrasted with the other lightsaber in the film. It looks intimidating but the more you look at it the more you realize it's just a patched-together thing trying to keep a barely-functional inside working. Just like Darth Vader.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's Anakin. Who is Vader, yes. MisterBibs posted:The first is merely Kylo has several threatening moments and he's only been in one movie, compared to Anakin's 6.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:14
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Rurea posted:We don't really even know how much Kylo Ren actually knows about Vader. Did Luke tell him the whole story? Is he just piecing together the stories and myths he has heard? Did Snoke tell him? It's implied he got a vision from the mask the same way Rey got a vision from the lightsaber. The mask was the tool that the Emperor used to control him. Through it, Vader could see only what the Emperor wanted him to see; inside it, he was prevented from dying after his friend and mentor killed him; and because of it, all his power could not keep the Emperor from killing him at will. The mask was with him during the second half of his life. The weapon, on the other hand (get it), was with him in the first half. It was, at one point, literally called his life. It was the witness to the tragedies that made him who he was, and it was the instrument with which he hoped to impose his vision of peace and justice upon a cruel galaxy. His son used it with the same ambition, of slaying Darth Sidious with it. Darth Vader never possessed the mask and the lightsaber at the same time. The lightsaber did not witness the end of his story, and the mask did not witness the beginning. Thus neither Kylo nor Rey understand the truth of the man in whose shadow they walk. This is the reason for the real rift between them. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 22:14
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MisterBibs posted:The first is merely Did you forget that Kylo murdered all of Luke's students in cold blood and single-handedly prompted Luke to go into hiding? Just because it was done off-screen doesn't make it and less threatening.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:15
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Elephant in the room... How does someone with only storm trooper training hold his own for more than 2 seconds against a trained sith? That part did not compute.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:16
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maporfic posted:Elephant in the room... How does someone with only storm trooper training hold his own for more than 2 seconds against a trained sith? That part did not compute. The answer is that he is not trained. Nor is he a Sith.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:17
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Icon-Cat posted:
Man that rancor scared the poo poo out of me. That is a U rated movie.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:17
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maporfic posted:Elephant in the room... How does someone with only storm trooper training hold his own for more than 2 seconds against a trained sith? That part did not compute. 1) Kylo was already wounded, and 2) he didn't hold his own for much longer than those 2 seconds.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:17
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maporfic posted:Elephant in the room... How does someone with only storm trooper training hold his own for more than 2 seconds against a trained sith? That part did not compute. A) Ren isn't finished his training B) Ren had just been shot and badly wounded. C) Stormtroopers have melee combat training. D) He 'held his own' in that he didn't instantly die. He ended the fight in a coma.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:18
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maporfic posted:Elephant in the room... How does someone with only storm trooper training hold his own for more than 2 seconds against a trained sith? That part did not compute. This has seriously been debated to death
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Dec 23, 2015 22:18
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If nothing else, the fact that TFA has already inspired so much debate on its message, place and relation to the PT and OT, and interest in EU explanations of new creations suggests that, at the very least, it's more than just "a forgettable 2010's reboot". Same cant be said for Total Recall and Robocop 
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Dec 23, 2015 22:18
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jivjov posted:1) Kylo was already wounded, and 2) he didn't hold his own for much longer than those 2 seconds. Also Kylo didn't complete the entirety of his training, so he was still inexperienced.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:19
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Bongo Bill posted:It's implied he got a vision from the mask the same way Rey got a vision from the lightsaber. Is there any evidence that he had a genuine vision and that he isn't just out of his mind and having "visions" created by said mind instead of by the Force?
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Dec 23, 2015 22:20
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