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Bongo Bill posted:Darth Vader isn't cool. His voice modulator is cool. The man himself is a dork, and so is his grandson. Fortunately "cool" and "threatening" are not synonyms. Darth Vader, as he appears in A New Hope, is cool as poo poo. And not just the voice but the costume and all the rad stuff he says. I'm a little surprised this is controversial.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:27
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Sir Kodiak posted:Darth Vader, as he appears in A New Hope, is cool as poo poo. And not just the voice but the costume and all the rad stuff he says. I'm a little surprised this is controversial. Of course, but Star Wars isn't just one movie.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:29
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ImpAtom posted:That is it. When ANH came out this was the last you saw of Darth Vader. Minor quibble, but we do see him pull out of the spin and fly off into space.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:29
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Bongo Bill posted:Of course, but Star Wars isn't just one movie. He's cool in all the movies he appears in, with the possible exception of the thirty second of RotS he's there for. Anakin's a dork and a half, naturally. But there's a world of difference in seeing the man beneath the mask after several movies and after thirty minutes. By the time we meet Anakin Skywalker we've had years to appreciate Vader. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 08:34
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Phylodox posted:Minor quibble, but we do see him pull out of the spin and fly off into space. Fair point, I did forget that! It doesn't change the point much though. (If anything it's even sillier if you think about it, he's spinning in space long enough for Luke to blow the Death Star and the rebel survivors to fly away.)
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Dec 24, 2015 08:34
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teagone posted:I don't think anyone is saying Ren didn't get embarrassed, because yeah, he totally got dunked on; he got posterized hard at the end of the film. But that's not a detriment to his role as a terrifying/threatening villain. The way I see it, being clowned on by two newbies absolutely undercuts his role, especially since the movie has been already doing it over and over and over again throughout the course of the movie. If there's no lightsaber hissy fits, whining to Vader's helmet, or being Force-punked by a neophyte, you can have your Threatening Bad Guy lose out in the end. Both? Sorry, that makes you a Not Threatening Bad Guy. ImpAtom posted:That is it. When ANH came out this was the last you saw of Darth Vader. So you haven't watched the end of the movie, then? Vader leaves under his own power from the movie.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:36
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Darth Vader is obviously supremely cool. So is Kylo Ren but for different reasons. Ren is a spaz but this doesn't mean he is not a legitimate threat to the good guys.MisterBibs posted:Vader leaves under his own power from the movie. Goddrat. What a total badass.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:39
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MisterBibs posted:The way I see it, being clowned on by two newbies absolutely undercuts his role, especially since the movie has been already doing it over and over and over again throughout the course of the movie. If there's no lightsaber hissy fits, whining to Vader's helmet, or being Force-punked by a neophyte, you can have your Threatening Bad Guy lose out in the end. Both? Sorry, that makes you a Not Threatening Bad Guy. So to you a villain is bad if they lose at any point unless the person they lose to is more experienced than they are. So again, Darth Vader is a bad villain because he gets effortlessly punked by a completely regular dude in a garbage freighter who gets in a lucky shot. MisterBibs posted:So you haven't watched the end of the movie, then? Vader leaves under his own power from the movie. ImpAtom posted:Fair point, I did forget that! It doesn't change the point much though. (If anything it's even sillier if you think about it, he's spinning in space long enough for Luke to blow the Death Star and the rebel survivors to fly away.)
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Dec 24, 2015 08:41
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Ren of course needed to do the equivalent of calling his evil foster dad to pick him up from the mall, since he didn't bring his own ride to the deserted forest he was fighting in. What a total fuckin wuss.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ding ding ding. At least we understand why Luke ran away from this mess.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:51
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ImpAtom posted:So again, Darth Vader is a bad villain because he gets effortlessly punked by a completely regular dude in a garbage freighter who gets in a lucky shot. No, Darth Vader is a good villain because a story-mandated deus ex machina had to come down to stop him, after he spent the last ~10 minutes cutting down everyone in the trench, getting closer and closer to Our Hero as he goes. Yeah, it has to happen because otherwise the Bad Guys win, but at no point does Kylo ever seem like he might actually kill either of these newbies. That's what makes Vader a better bad guy than Kylo, in my mind. There's no "Without the story pressure, I can see this Bad Guy winning" from Kylo. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 08:53
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MisterBibs posted:That's what makes Vader a better bad guy than Kylo This is literally the entire point of the character.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:58
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MisterBibs posted:The way I see it, being clowned on by two newbies absolutely undercuts his role, especially since the movie has been already doing it over and over and over again throughout the course of the movie. If there's no lightsaber hissy fits, whining to Vader's helmet, or being Force-punked by a neophyte, you can have your Threatening Bad Guy lose out in the end. Both? Sorry, that makes you a Not Threatening Bad Guy. You are misunderstanding his role in the movie. He is not a seductive figure of power, like Vader. He's discomforting. I can appreciate you might have preferred the former, but that's his role and it's simply a different way to be threatening. MisterBibs posted:No, Darth Vader is a good villain because a story-mandated deus ex machina had to come down to stop him, after he spent the last ~10 minutes cutting down everyone in the trench, getting closer and closer to Our Hero as he goes. The thing I like best about this is that Kylo Ren kills the character who, in a previous movie, is apparently so powerful that you're describing his actions as an act of god. Of course, he does so in a way that's disturbing, not triumphant. Again, threatening in a different way.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:59
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Big Mean Jerk posted:This is literally the entire point of the character. I don't know why people don't just ignore him or give him ridiculous av+red text as is tradition in these, the serious forums
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Dec 24, 2015 09:02
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MisterBibs posted:No, Darth Vader is a good villain because a story-mandated deus ex machina had to come down to stop him, after he spent the last ~10 minutes cutting down everyone in the trench, getting closer and closer to Our Hero as he goes. .How is Kylo Ren having a plasma bolt in his gut not a plot-mandated weakness that allows the heroes to win? He is literally shown onscreen as being able to defeat both of them when he isn't injured.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:02
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Ren's shortcomings are only caused by his wavering faith in the dark side (not to count being severely wounded and distracted). When he fully embraces it, he is seen doing incredible feats. I don't think he was ever meant as a joke. He's meant to be a developing threat. It's called character development done right, something we don't see often in villains. Plus, no character ever mocks him (and no one at my teather ever laughed at him), all we see from them is fear. To say he isn't threatening is very wrong. When he actually fully sets his mind to something, he accomplishes it. He would have perfectly been able to kill Finn if he wasn't after the lightsaber (he discards Finn like he is of no interest, instead turning to get the weapon) and he would have bested Rey too if he wasn't intent on capturing her.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:05
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ImpAtom posted:Fair point, I did forget that! It doesn't change the point much though. (If anything it's even sillier if you think about it, he's spinning in space long enough for Luke to blow the Death Star and the rebel survivors to fly away.) Well, Spinning is a good trick.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:09
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Ren. Rey. Hey, huh.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:10
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TG-Chrono posted:I don't know why people don't just ignore him or give him ridiculous av+red text as is tradition in these, the serious forums It's two days before Christmas. Money's tight. Give it till Saturday, once everyone cashes those checks from their grandparents/aunts and uncles there'll be red text flying all around this thread.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:13
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ImpAtom posted:.How is Kylo Ren having a plasma bolt in his gut not a plot-mandated weakness that allows the heroes to win? He is literally shown onscreen as being able to defeat both of them when he isn't injured. Did I miss a fight scene where what you spoiled is hinted at, much less explained? Dude was pounding on that wound for Dark Side mojo it could possibly give him, and he was still clowned in combat.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:14
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This conversation is going no where.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:17
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MisterBibs posted:Did I miss a fight scene where what you spoiled is hinted at, much less explained? Dude was pounding on that wound for Dark Side mojo it could possibly give him, and he was still clowned in combat.  Yeah, I'm dropping it here. I can't even respond to something that dumb.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:17
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, I'm dropping it here. I can't even respond to something that dumb. That happens when you say something like "The film shows this guy can defeat two newbies at something", when it doesn't.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:20
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He freezes Rey when he's had enough of her shooting at him then just says gently caress it and knocks her unconscious, bringing her limp body aboard his shuttle. Of course this is before she unlocks her true potential and combines her previously shown fighting prowess with unhinged force benefits. But even then Kylo Ren was psychologically and physically injured. But nah, he's a loving pussy compared to Marvel movie villains (lol).
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Dec 24, 2015 09:24
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I've never really seen passionate arguments about a Star Wars movie's plot unfold in real time. I feel like I'm on Usenet in 1983~~
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Dec 24, 2015 09:26
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MisterBibs posted:That happens when you say something like "The film shows this guy can defeat two newbies at something", when it doesn't. Except it totally does... He does defeat Finn and he is shown overpowering Rey in the forest of Takodana and again when he throws her using the force. I don't see how it's a stretch he could have won that fight if he were at full strength and fully commited to the task (he is poised to kill her but then offers to train her).
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Dec 24, 2015 09:26
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That Bowcaster was shown to be a goddamn murder machine. It was talked up the entire movie. Kylo was shown to be hurting. He was embracing the pain because he's a dark side crazy. But was clearly injured and not 100%. Finn he didn't care about. Rey he didn't want to kill at least immediately as shown by the fact that he invited her to join him, as he knows something about her from the Jedi temple. Also if he would have just overpowered her at the cliff rather than reminding her to focus on the force when he made said offer she was a goner. Rey is also a really really good fighter and was essentially using the Lightsaber as she would be using her staff as a fighting style. Luke had no formal fight training. While Rey has been defending herself and fighting for years, now she just has a Lightsaber.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:37
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MisterBibs posted:That happens when you say something like "The film shows this guy can defeat two newbies at something", when it doesn't. Except it does. You're just bad at watching movies.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:40
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Dexo posted:That Bowcaster was shown to be a goddamn murder machine. It was talked up the entire movie. I agree. He was clearly injured. The only blood shown in the movie was at that moment, clearly illustrating he was hurting. Dexo posted:Finn he didn't care about. Rey he didn't want to kill at least immediately as shown by the fact that he invited her to join him, as he knows something about her from the Jedi temple. Also if he would have just overpowered her at the cliff rather than reminding her to focus on the force when he made said offer she was a goner. Also agreed. He chose not to kill her. When she realised that, she even took a moment and closed her eyes right in the middle of it with him looking on.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:42
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The trouble is that people are talking 'threatening' as if actual lives are what are at stake. In a movie where billions canonically die, in a throwaway scene. The actual question is whether the villains are cool. These stories are about philosophies in conflict, and Vader is - crucially - never proven wrong. When he gets shot in A New Hope, it's because he trusted his moronic subordinates. So he retains his dignity - that blaxploitation chic and no-fucks attitude. Kylo is also 'cool', but of a different kind. With Driver's weird chin, impossibly fluffy hair, photogenic scar, and slick outfit, he is the perfect pop image of a 1970s anime character. That's what he becomes when he throws away the mask and robe that he used to hide himself. This whole stupid debate misses the character's arc, where he goes from (fake) badass to obvious loser to misunderstood monster, doomed to loneliness because he's too pure for this world. Edward Scissorhands. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 09:52
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holy poo poo just stop taking the bait
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Dec 24, 2015 09:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This whole stupid debate misses the character's arc, where he goes from (fake) badass to obvious loser to misunderstood monster, doomed to loneliness because he's too pure for this world. Edward Scissorhands. That's unfortunately not how Isaw his story arc. I didn't percieve a loser, I thought his story arc was supposed to show his struggle with acceptng the dark side and to presage his eventual growth in the coming movies as his training is completed. As I stated, I think his "weak" moments are excusable by his struggle and other factors and I still saw a strong villain and I don't understand some of the complaints. 
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Dec 24, 2015 10:03
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MisterBibs is just changing words around to mean whatever he wants them to mean at this point because he can't let go of a dumb wrong opinion he's been droning about for six days straight. "Coma" becomes "flesh wound." "Literally wins against" becomes "clowned." In fact he's going to quote this very post when he sees it to say that I'm only proving him right when I bring up the things that he's objectively wrong about. It's going nowhere. I'd suggest letting it die but somehow I don't think that's going to happen either.
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Dec 24, 2015 10:19
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teagone posted:Except it does. You're just bad at watching movies. I'm not the one being dishonest about the movie we're discussing. I get it, TFA having a pathetic non-threatening bad guy is one of the ways TFA is different than ANH, requiring the invention of "Kylo is ~so threatening, fer shure you guys~" reading so it fully mimics ANH to suit you, but it's not supported in the movie we got. Great movie, bad guy about as good at creating tension as that "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" dude whose name I'm blanking on. Say Kylo is threatening? go to Space Wizard Jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200 portions from the CGI dude nobody has complained about because it's not the prequels anymore. E: vvv I already made the comparison between "Kylo is threatening" and "Actually It's About Ethics" stuff. You laugh at those who say it's about ethics, you laugh at those who say Kylo is threatening. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 10:45
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let's all argue with the ugly disgusting goonlord who has 12k+ tweets about gamergate and refuses to acknowledge anything anyone says, i'm sure he will understand soon
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Dec 24, 2015 10:48
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MisterBibs didn't grow up with The Force Awakens, so he obviously doesn't understand it.
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Dec 24, 2015 10:49
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MisterBibs posted:I'm not the one being dishonest about the movie we're discussing. I get it, TFA having a pathetic non-threatening bad guy is one of the ways TFA is different than ANH, requiring the invention of "Kylo is ~so threatening, fer shure you guys~" reading so it fully mimics ANH to suit you, but it's not supported in the movie we got. Great movie, bad guy about as good at creating tension as that "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" dude whose name I'm blanking on. Good lord, lmao. I'm done. Everyone else done? This guy can go gently caress off.
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Dec 24, 2015 11:00
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I could totally take that Kylo pussy in a fight 
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Dec 24, 2015 11:04
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They could have completely removed the character of Dameron from the film and it wouldn't have affected the story one bit.
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Dec 24, 2015 11:12
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Davros1 posted:They could have completely removed the character of Dameron from the film and it wouldn't have affected the story one bit. Glad they didn't though, Poe owned
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Dec 24, 2015 11:17
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