|
moller posted:Sounds like a cross between the 80's satanic panic and The Cask of Amontillado. It's a great read, I'll give you that. I might sell movie rights somewhere down the line. But having to restrict my temple, library and tavern to citizens only, due to a dumb mechanic that allows vampires to visit and jack-poo poo to be done in the way of preventative measures, gotta say it's not as fun as it sounds on paper. Literally no way to screen visitors, no way to attack them and stop them. It's annoying as gently caress.
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 08:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:05 |
|
|
Send them to play under a drawbridge, or drop them down a hole full of magma. There are plenty of ways to kill people without attacking them with soldiers, and the wonderful benefit of these is that they don't cause loyalty cascades.Loopoo posted:Can someone explain what a loyalty cascade is, exactly? I read up on it in the Wiki, but I'm still confused by it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 08:46
|
|
|
a loyalty cascade is what results from the idea that "attacking a member of the fortress makes you an enemy of the fortress" when you don't also have the rule that "becoming an enemy of the fortress means you aren't a member of the fortress" basically: 1. urist1 punches urist2 in the nose. urist2 is a member of the fortress, so now urist1 is an enemy of the fort 2. urist3 walks by and sees urist1. urist3 immediately proclaims: "an enemy of the fort! kill it!" and punches urist1. urist1 is a member of the fortress, so now urist3 is an enemy of the fort 3. urist2 sees urist3. urist2 immediately proclaims: "an enemy of the fort! kill it!" and punches urist3. urist3 is a member of the fortress, so now urist2 is an enemy of the fort 4. urist4 walks by and sees urist2. urist4 immediately proclaims: "an enemy of the fort! kill it!" and punches urist2. urist2 is a member of the fortress, so now urist4 is an enemy of the fort
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 08:46
|
|
|
Now fill the prison cell with molten silver.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 08:57
|
|
|
Loopoo posted:Can someone explain what a loyalty cascade is, exactly? I read up on it in the Wiki, but I'm still confused by it. Know how World War One started? One rear end in a top hat blew up an Archduke, and all hell broke loose because everyone in Europe had treaties to join in any wars. Loyalty cascades work the same way--in Dwarf Fortress, if your friend is involved in a fight, you join in that fight immediately. So if you send seven dwarves to fight a vampire, and one of them likes the vampire, the instant anyone in the squad is within eyesight of the vampire (which initiates combat) everyone who likes the vampire or thinks it might not be an enemy attacks the dwarf who saw it first, then everyone who likes THAT dwarf immediately attacks the dwarves attacking your unlucky spotters, then everyone who likes any of the dwarves who liked the dwarves who attacked the vampire lover join in, yadda yadda yadda sudden total war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 08:57
|
|
|
Surely Tavern brawls don't always have to end in bloodshed? I mean, I get the concept of loyalty cascades now (thanks, guys), but if my dwarves can't sit around in the tavern, singing and having the occasional friendly brawl without it turning into genocide, I think I'm better off without a tavern. Do taverns automatically designate fights within their zones as "harmless", or will dwarves genuinely kill each other over a thrown punch? I've got woodcutters and soldiers regularly visiting taverns. If they joined in with their weapons, it'd be a bloodbath.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 09:09
|
|
|
There are various levels of conflict with their own rules for what is allowed. If it's working properly, fistfights should probably stay at the "brawl" combat level, where only punches are thrown and people on the ground won't be attacked.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 09:25
|
|
|
 "In a time before time I attacked me..." Is this a bug or have a run into some kind of legendary Fight Club situation here?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 09:54
|
|
|
Maybe he's drunk and making stuff up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 10:48
|
|
|
In a time before time I attacked. Me!
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 11:22
|
|
|
I checked and it's on the bug tracker, but nobody has figured out the reason for sure. Some people guess that the creatures are jumping/crashing into obstacles after getting scared and this is somehow counting as attacking themselves. I don't know where "in a time before time" factors into that hypothesis.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 11:34
|
|
|
loyalty cascades are a bit more complex, as detailed in the wiki. you cannot be a member of a group and an enemy at the same time. However! your dwarves are members of both a civilization, and your fortress. if they attack something that is only a member of one, they can be a member of your forts faction, and an enemy to your dwarves civilization, or vice versa, or both. if they're an enemy of both, killing them is okay. otherwise, you wind up with scrambled loyalties. the bard likely counts as a member of only your fort or civilization, so trying to kill him results in one dwarf becoming an enemy of A, and those that attack him become an enemy of B, and so on. according to the wiki, any dwarf that kills a citizen ends up an enemy of A and B.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 12:21
|
|
|
anyways, to kill him, you can just tinker with your current saves raw files to add the [CRAZED] token to elves. this is the tag that causes werebeasts to fight everyone and not cause loyalty issues. it will make all elves hostile to everything except other elves and totally kosher to murder. never tried doing this myself, but it should work.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 12:25
|
|
|
He's a Human Bard. So basically, when my Dwarves attack him, loyalty cascade happens because the Dwarven Civilization (which my Fort is directly part of) and the Human Civilization are allies? So the minute my Dwarves see my Commander attacking the Human Bard, all hell breaks loose cause of the loyalty to the Dwarven Civ + Human Civ alliance? I've walled him in but I'm glad I didn't kill him. I captured one of my people as a Vampire a few months back and have him walled in a room. He's on the brink of insanity, so I might transport him to the room that has the Bard in it so they can talk and socialize and not go crazy. It's a win win, cause that way I get to keep my Legendary Weaponsmith Vampire!
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 12:38
|
|
|
If he's petitioned to join your fort and you said yes, that means he's a member of your fort and your civilization now.If you look at his details it should say what he is a current member of and a former member of. Of course, vampires also tend to lie about these sorts of things...
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 12:52
|
|
|
No, he didn't petition. He's just a visitor, here to listen to the beautiful poet recitals and also partake in a little blood draining on the side. Sidenote: I really think vampire visitors being a thing is broken as gently caress and shouldn't be a game mechanic. Dwarf migrant vampires is fair enough, but visitors give you such limited options to prevent them draining the blood from one of your important people. At least you can loving screen migrants.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 13:15
|
|
|
That sounds like a "magma reservoir and floodgates" problem.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 14:52
|
|
|
dragon_pamcake posted:That sounds like a "magma reservoir and floodgates" problem. I've taken care of it, and it's handy he arrived. I've roomed him up with my resident legendary weaponsmith vampire. They should keep each other company and stop the onset of insanity. Still though, having to resort to such dwarfy measures as magma for an issue that should be somewhat simple to resolve (militia, attack that scum!) is a bit annoying. It isn't "fun" or fun, it's just straight-up irritating. Especially since I've now stopped all visitors from coming to my temples, libraries and taverns, cause I just know this poo poo will happen again. It's like that one time a necromancer visited and then I got attacked by a Megabeast. necromancer wanted to be a pal and help my fort out by chipping in some of his voodoo mama joojoo magic on the beast. Ended up resurrecting a dog that had it's head torn off by the megabeast. That head then proceeded to chomp on my soldiers and civilians. I lost 2 dogs to the megabeasts, and 7 dwarves to the necromancer. My guys wouldn't even attack the necromancer until I put a kill order on him, as he was still regarded as friendly. Oh, and I forgot to mention, upon attacking the necromancer, loyalty cascade kicked in as well! Qubee fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Dec 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 14:55
|
|
|
The cat messages are 
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 15:49
|
|
|
Loopoo posted:Still though, having to resort to such dwarfy measures as magma for an issue that should be somewhat simple to resolve (militia, attack that scum!) is a bit annoying. It isn't "fun" or fun, it's just straight-up irritating. Especially since I've now stopped all visitors from coming to my temples, libraries and taverns, cause I just know this poo poo will happen again. This is Dwarf Fortress. The answer to every question is "magma." The solution to every problem is "magma." If whatever you're doing doesn't involve magma somehow you're wrong.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 15:58
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:This is Dwarf Fortress. The answer to every question is "magma." The solution to every problem is "magma." If whatever you're doing doesn't involve magma somehow you're wrong. If the questions you're asking aren't "How can I solve it with magma???" you're asking the wrong questions. I should know better.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 16:12
|
|
|
As I said before, your problem could have also been solved simply by crushing him under a drawbridge. Or retracting out a bridge from under him and dropping him down a pit. Or hitting him with a high speed minecart full of serrated steel discs. Or releasing a pile of armed trapped goblins in his room.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 16:22
|
|
|
Pickled Tink posted:As I said before, your problem could have also been solved simply by crushing him under a drawbridge. Or retracting out a bridge from under him and dropping him down a pit. Or hitting him with a high speed minecart full of serrated steel discs. Or releasing a pile of armed trapped goblins in his room. The likelihood of him walking under a drawbridge and staying there long enough for a dwarf to pull the connected lever is ridiculously unlikely. Plus I'd have to stay following him for ages until he eventually walked under one! Edit: oh you're talking about my dwarf citizen. He was never an issue, I just drafted him and stationed him in a room I locked.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 16:37
|
|
|
i discovered the most bizarre loving conflict in creature tokens a creature with CAN_LEARN or a token that implies it (INTELLIGENT) will never, ever use an interaction with USAGE_HINT:FLEEING why is this a conflict  i also learned [SLOW_LEARNER] is absolutely not a substitute for CAN_LEARN or some variation, since A. it doesnt cause this conflict, and B. a civ with SLOW_LEARNER dwarves will have your fortress crumble instantly on embark since they don't count at citizens, but that is besides the point
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 16:38
|
|
|
Loopoo posted:Surely Tavern brawls don't always have to end in bloodshed? I mean, I get the concept of loyalty cascades now (thanks, guys), but if my dwarves can't sit around in the tavern, singing and having the occasional friendly brawl without it turning into genocide, I think I'm better off without a tavern. A human and a goblin got in a brawl last night in my fort. They wailed on each other for a while but in the end the human just crawled back to his room at the tavern and puked a bunch and the goblin went to my hospital with some broken minor bones. RE: the vampire visitor, yeah that sucks but fwiw it seems like a one off situation with the loyalty cascade... My militia just slaughtered some visitors in my tavern and nothing went crazy. I think we're missing something here because you said the militia went nuts before they actually even attacked the vampire and I'm pretty sure a loyalty cascade isn't going to get set off until something actually initiates combat. It sounds more like the bug/glitch I experienced a few days ago where a kobold was spotted and then halfway across the map in my tavern 5-6 people decided to just rage out and start killing anything near them for reasons that are still unknown to me. And I know there can't be a loyalty cascade involving your civilization's allies because you can murder caravans/diplomats not belonging to your civ with your militia and it won't cause a loyalty cascade (unless maybe there's some foreigners in your militia with the new version). Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Dec 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 17:37
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:A human and a goblin got in a brawl last night in my fort. They wailed on each other for a while but in the end the human just crawled back to his room at the tavern and puked a bunch and the goblin went to my hospital with some broken minor bones. The whole thing is fucky, I think it may just be a bug. I'm not sure if my militia commander "charged ferociously" at the vampire a few tiles away and then my citizens went batshit when they saw it (that's most likely what sets off the fighting, now that I think of it). Regarding the loyalty cascade, I think it is a one-off, cause I had two visitors who refused to leave, and when I ordered them killed, everyone kept their cool.  Here is the little shithead visitor vampire, chained up like the scum he is. Working in his forge is my citizen legendary weaponsmith vampire. I'm getting him to melt the crappy weapons I bought from caravans and make them legendary hopefully. Once the visitor gets released from jail, I'm hoping these two fucks will chat and keep each other company. I even set up a little temple in the top left corner for him to pray in. I saved my game before I built that room, and the vampire citizen escaped when I mistakenly forgot to forbid the doors. First thing he did was run down to a sleeping dwarf and suck them off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 17:59
|
|
|
I think there should be a way to designate 'fort member only' areas to prevent that. Or a 'if guests are outside these designated areas then they are trespassing' rule with burrows or something. A tavern guest has no business in the residential areas. I guess a vampire wouldn't listen to your rules anyway but maybe then you could have a valid reason to arrest or kill him without having anyone be mad about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 18:16
|
|
|
I just wish the justice system had special options for vampires where you could banish or execute them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 18:21
|
|
|
Or you know whatd be better and more Toady? The civilizations have morals on what to do with vampires. Like they have preferences between execution, banishment, or life imprisonment.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 18:29
|
|
|
Hihohe posted:I just wish the justice system had special options for vampires where you could banish or execute them. There's already a special justice for vampires, and it comes with a complimentary cask of Amontillado 
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 18:30
|
|
|
My last vampire mayor bled to death in a traction bench after serving his sentence of 400 days in prison and 80 hammer strikes for draining three of my dwarves, so the system clearly works.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
A giant mushroom destroyed my constructed floor, stranding my legendary miner in the first cavern. He was content to sit in the new well channel as it was flooding.  Later, I built a gem window out of two pieces of cut granite and one of cut chalk. If I'm reading the wiki correctly, the dwarves should be able to see through it, right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 22:23
|
|
|
So Math posted:A giant mushroom destroyed my constructed floor Dwarven Nuclear Weapons Confirmed
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
So Math posted:A giant mushroom destroyed my constructed floor, stranding my legendary miner in the first cavern. He was content to sit in the new well channel as it was flooding. Yeah line of sight goes through a window. If they see a goblin invader through that window they'll freak out as surely as if they were outside next to the thing, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 22:57
|
|
|
That's what I thought. I built it for laughs when I saw opaque materials on the build list. I'll just pretend it's ulexite for the sake of ~immersion~.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 23:08
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter; they'll still have line of sight through it. I could be wrong though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2015 23:30
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2015 03:11
|
|
|
When the carp grow legs, you'll be ready.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2015 03:12
|
|
|
So Math posted:That's what I thought. I built it for laughs when I saw opaque materials on the build list. I'll just pretend it's ulexite for the sake of ~immersion~. Those dummies at Yale built a structure with stone windows: http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/about/about-building
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2015 05:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:05 |
|
|
How should I deal with were beast attacks? Bridge everyone who has been bitten immediately?
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2015 16:10
|
|
