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Aaronicon posted:
You mean like AotC?
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Dec 24, 2015 13:20
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Ren will become the "hero" of the story and Rey the villain/turn to the dark side. Thoughts about that theory? To me it seems kind of the logical move and it would explain why you would introduce a villain with doubts (so there is a way back to the light side) and make a new hero who is already at the point Luke was in ESB (so she has more time to fall for the dark side). It would also be a reversal of Anakin's character arc if Ren really goes to the other side. It's also interesting that in this movie the villain loses his first duel, usually it's happening to our heroes who get their asses kicked (see Luke/Anakin). They are also the ones who have to improve/master the abilities but in this one it's never an issue with Rey and instead it's emphasized that Ren has to finish his training. Then you also have the whole "seduced by the other side" angle which is also emphasized in Ren's case but hardly plays into Rey's role (Ren wants to "turn" her but it's never showed as conflict for Rey, for her it's just all about using the force and the question of dark or light side doesn't really factor into the whole thing) I really wish that's where they take the characters but I don't know if Disney has the guts to really have their female lead get turned to the dark side and use the murderer of Han (and Luke's Jedi) as the "hero" of the story.
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Dec 24, 2015 13:25
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Avalanche posted:2) Angry old nerds are realizing they are no longer the target demographic and this just makes them older and angrier. There are no late 30s-40s characters in the film so no LARPING to be had. I don't care if I'm the wrong age/gender, I'm totally cosplaying as Rey from now own 
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Dec 24, 2015 13:26
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LinkesAuge posted:Ren will become the "hero" of the story and Rey the villain/turn to the dark side. Um, no.
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Dec 24, 2015 13:31
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Rey cares for droids and treats them like equals, just like Anakin did! Obi Wan and Luke never gave a poo poo about droids! It's all about the droids, sheeple!
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Dec 24, 2015 13:34
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Frankston posted:The most jarring part of the movie for me was when the heroes all returned after Han died and Leia and Chewbacca who have been friends for 30+ years and were the two closest people to Han in the galaxy completely ignore each other in favour of Leia hugging a girl she's know for a couple of hours for some reason. Why would JJ want to highlight Leia hugging Rey. Better not think about it. The movie made an error.
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Dec 24, 2015 13:36
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Motto posted:Snoke's just what the First Order calls their deathstick-inspired hallucinations. Han symbolizes the failure of school anti-drug programs. Many, many posts back, but holy poo poo, yes. The dealer from Attack of the Clones went home, rethought his life and became the head of a major drug cartel through intense, vicious political maneuvering and murder. Then he creates the persona of Snoke and only interacts through a creepy holographic avatar. Kylo's Dark Side training is just b.s. spun by the dealer and some tricks he's worked out for himself, which is why we see a couple of new Force powers from him and he's so poo poo with the traditional ones. It all hangs together.
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Dec 24, 2015 13:48
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euphronius posted:Why would JJ want to highlight Leia hugging Rey. Better not think about it. The movie made an error. She still should've at least looked at Chewie, what kind of friend is she.
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Dec 24, 2015 13:48
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She does great Chewie earlier tho. Usually when you get a divorce you don't remain close with your ex's servant I mean best friend. The movie I thought hit the "divorced couple meeting after many years" feel on the nose.
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Dec 24, 2015 13:57
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LinkesAuge posted:Ren will become the "hero" of the story and Rey the villain/turn to the dark side. Probably the biggest issue with this is that Kylo is complicit in genocide on a massive scale. It's okay to get a deathbed conversion like with Vader, but having space hitler repent and run around rescuing people as a good guy is too much I think.
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Dec 24, 2015 14:04
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team overhead smash posted:Probably the biggest issue with this is that Kylo is complicit in genocide on a massive scale. It's okay to get a deathbed conversion like with Vader, but having space hitler repent and run around rescuing people as a good guy is too much I think. He obviously wouldn't run around as the good guy or resuce people. What I meant is more a gradual "decline" towards the light side which culminates in a similar way as Vader but more than just a deathbed conversion. He of course can still sacrifice himself but you could do a lot more with that than Vader's one minute of "now good guy". I'm also not suggesting that Rey becomes really evil and goes around killing people but I could imagine that she does get seduced by the dark side and makes a different choice than Luke in ROTJ because she was abonded by her father/family for example and then Ren would fit in perfectly as family member to help her come back from this decision, a chance Anakin didn't have made possible by his grandson (this would also bring Ren full circle because in the end he did act just like his grandfather). I really see not many other options, what is the alternative? Tell the exact same story with Rey in place of Luke? I mean Disney for sure wants to play it save but that's too save even for Disney and the way Ren was used in the first movie means they have to do more with Ren than the OT did with Vader (until the very end of ROTJ). It would also give Luke more possibilities than just being the next Obi-Wan/Yoda to Rey. If Ren/Rey really take opposite paths that would put Luke in an interesting position (how to handle your former Padawan who betrayed you but is now showing signs that he still has the light side in him and what to do with Rey if he fears she could turn to the dark side just like Ren?).
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Dec 24, 2015 14:26
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Steve2911 posted:Yeah basically Rey is gonna be the best Jedi ever ever (ever, guys). I took R2D2's sudden waking up to be the moment that 'the force has awoken'.
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Dec 24, 2015 14:45
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I think the way Kylo Ren is represented is meant to be a counterpoint to how fans love Darth Vader so much. Even the current marketing campaign is centered around "Which side are you on?" There's still going to be people who "love" the character, even though having a Kylo Ren t-shirt isn't that much different from wearing one with the face of Idi Amin on it.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:07
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What idiots allowed a video game to potentially spoil an amazing revelation ?
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Dec 24, 2015 15:29
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Rey loving owned and is the best new character. But let's all defend the terrible prequels while talks about how Rey, a girl, couldn't possibly wipe her own butt because we didn't have a 90 minute exposition scene detailing her ability to apply tissue paper to poo poo. Also that she is a girl (who happens to be a better, more likable and believable character than Luke).
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Dec 24, 2015 15:31
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Timeless Appeal posted:Man, you can make an actual real argument that R2 is force sensitive based on this movie. The OT made that pretty abundantly clear already.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:31
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Samara posted:What idiots allowed a video game to potentially spoil an amazing revelation ? The same idiots who hear "cousin" instead of "curses".
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Dec 24, 2015 15:32
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Rey loving owned and is the best new character. But let's all defend the terrible prequels while talks about how Rey, a girl, couldn't possibly wipe her own butt because we didn't have a 90 minute exposition scene detailing her ability to apply tissue paper to poo poo. Also that she is a girl (who happens to be a better, more likable and believable character than Luke). Rey is just as good of a character as Luke (she's a repetition of Luke) in that they're both sort of boring, but hey who isn't? The prequels are good movies.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:34
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Avalanche posted:1) Makes old nerds angry about a bunch of stupid poo poo no one gives a gently caress about unless you are a stupid nerd and are pissed the movie wasn't a video encyclopedia justifying every stupid little detail that has absolutely no baring on character development. It's pretty amazing how the Star Wars fanbase gets lambasted for such ultra-specificity as tracking the backstory of that one extra in the background carrying an ice cream maker on Bespin, and then we get TFA and people start going on about all that ultra-specificity isn't being used, man.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:37
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Danger posted:Rey is just as good of a character as Luke (she's a repetition of Luke) in that they're both sort of boring, but hey who isn't? The prequels are good movies. Cool, your opinion is worthless and doesn't matter as you don't know what a good movie is.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:43
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:The same idiots who hear "cousin" instead of "curses".
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Dec 24, 2015 15:46
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's pretty amazing how the Star Wars fanbase gets lambasted for such ultra-specificity as tracking the backstory of that one extra in the background carrying an ice cream maker on Bespin, and then we get TFA and people start going on about all that ultra-specificity isn't being used, man. I think it's interesting that some of these same complaints are about things that are prominent in the prequels. Like the tendency to over explain plot points and endless exposition. Take for instance the contrast between the showdown between Obi Wan and Anakin in Ep. 3 and the Han and Kylo Ren confrontation in TFA. Now surely, these aren't necessarily trying to be the EXACT same thing thematically, however, one works and one doesn't. The one that doesn't work has a tendency to beat you over the head with "THIS IS AN EPIC SHOWDOWN, LISTEN TO THE MUSIC HOOOOOOLY poo poo THEY'RE SURFING ON LAVA COOL!" and yet it feels like lifeless spectacle. Like a video game involving characters you don't care about. And these are characters that we've spent 3 films getting to know, watching their relationship grow. Conversely, the showdown between Han Solo and Kylo Ren has absolutely no music. Very little spectacle to it other than being on a bridge lit by the light of a dying star and sinister red. We know almost nothing about their history, other than the basics. Which one works better? Another example is the soundtrack, which some people are complaining about that it isn't memorable. The prequel soundtracks are old school John Williams, they beat you over the head with bombastic hummable tunes. No doubt that it was intentional, and I even love those soundtracks. But the TFA soundtrack is the modern John Williams, much more interesting and nuanced. And even though it's not as instantly memorable or hummable, Rey's theme says more about Rey to me than any theme from the prequels says about anything really. It's like the difference between a fun, catchy Taylor Swift tune and jazz. Sure, one of them will get stuck in your head, but the other has a lot more going on. TLDR: if you're complaining about not being explained enough poo poo, you better LOVE the prequels.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:00
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Mahoning posted:I think it's interesting that some of these same complaints are about things that are prominent in the prequels. Like the tendency to over explain plot points and endless exposition. But who was Darth Maul? Who was Jago Fet? Why did Anakin and Amidala fall in love? Who was Palpatine? Who were half the characters in the movie? But please more talk about bug factory workers and how Count Dookie and Grevious (unimportant mooks) got betrayed in a convoluted scheme by the Palpatine so we can kill them in a overlong action sequence. Because Palpatine being evil is a mystery and not already revealed like immediately in the story.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:06
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Palpatine was the chancellor who was also Darth Sidious and became The Emperor.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:10
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Dooku was a last minute addition who took the place of jar jar being the actual traitor.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:13
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I feel like Dooku was written purely to shoehorn Christopher Lee into Star Wars.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:19
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Electromax posted:She still should've at least looked at Chewie, what kind of friend is she. She's a horrible friend that cares more about comforting her niece about the loss of her uncle.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:26
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euphronius posted:This was the first time I've ever seen Adam driver on screen. I thought he was tremendously .... I don't know. I can't describe what his face does on screen. I was super impressed tho. Watch Inside Llewyn Davis. Watch this clip and you'll see why it would be even more interesting to you now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwO-k-RqNA Darko fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 16:29
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euphronius posted:She does great Chewie earlier tho. Chewie is a former war comrade of hers, he's more than just some guy Han knew. Chewie helped rescue her from the Death Star. Divorced or not, Leia obviously grieved when Han died, this is made explicit by the cut to Leia as he died. Chewie would share that grief much more so than Rey. I agree with everyone else that this was a big missed opportunity, but like anything else in TFA they probably didn't have the extra 15 seconds of screentime available to put this in.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:31
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Quite a few friends who are long-time star wars fans have expressed a lot of disappointment with the new movie. I was thinking last night why that is, and I suspect it's because it's a re-telling of ANH. New viewers wouldn't have problems with that, but I can see why a fan might feel let down by that. They want new and interesting stories, a plot they don't already know by heart. One guy mentioned he marathoned the first 6 in machete order two days before he saw it in theaters and walked away feeling let down. I suspect it's because he just saw what he saw two days before but with less interesting characters. One thing that everyone I know is split about is Rey. Half my friends like her, the other half think she's crap. I feel like she's the most contrived character in the story. Luke didn't just start awakening to force powers on his own. Anakin didn't. They had guides, mentors, they struggled and learned and earned those powers. The fact that Rey was handed them with practically no effort on her part (Save for one extremely hilariously lovely 'torture' or interrogation or whatever the hell that was supposed to be) cheapened the whole thing. IMO that was as lame and lovely as Ep 1's Midichlorians.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:37
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khy posted:Quite a few friends who are long-time star wars fans have expressed a lot of disappointment with the new movie. I was thinking last night why that is, and I suspect it's because it's a re-telling of ANH. New viewers wouldn't have problems with that, but I can see why a fan might feel let down by that. They want new and interesting stories, a plot they don't already know by heart. One guy mentioned he marathoned the first 6 in machete order two days before he saw it in theaters and walked away feeling let down. I suspect it's because he just saw what he saw two days before but with less interesting characters. Ask yourself if maybe there's a reason that Rey already has those powers. Maybe we don't quite know that reason yet. Stop treating unanswered questions like they're filmmaking mistakes. You don't need to be spoon fed the reason for everything.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:43
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Regarding the quick pacing in ANH, yes it is unclear how long space gravel takes in that one. But we get a few cuts between the Falcon taking off from Tatooine and arriving at the Death Star. Luke has time to get his lightsaber out and do some basic exercises, Chewie and C3PO hang out and play space chess. The Empire heads to Alderaan and blows it up. There's enough that happens to imply that the journey from Tatooine to Alderaan took at least a few hours if not longer. Even in Episode 1 they have the trip from Naboo to Tatooine where Amidala has time to commend R2D2 on his bravery, and the trip from Tatooine to Coruscant where Anakin and Padme share some lines. In TFA there isn't a scene of characters doing anything on a ship that is traveling through hyperspace. Every jump is functionally instantaneous with the possible exception of the jump from Han's freightor to Maz' place. That seems to be the only time in the whole movie that anyone could have snuck a nap in somewhere. The quick jump from Resistance to Starkiller was the worst offender because they went from making the hyperspace plan to arriving there in about 15 seconds.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:44
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The second time I watched, I felt like after Leia noticed Rey while Chewie is walking in her direction, the camera cut to Rey for long enough for Chewie and Leia to have a quick hug or something of recognition before we see Leia and Rey coming together. We don't actually see Chewie walking past her or Leia ignoring him as he does so, so I've just headcanoned it as they had a quick moment during the focus on Rey that wasn't then shown on screen.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:45
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Mahoning posted:Ask yourself if maybe there's a reason that Rey already has those powers. Maybe we don't quite know that reason yet. While that's definitely a possibility, that doesn't change the impact of the feeling he got while watching this movie given the information contained within. A lot of the "issues" with this movie have to do with that. The pacing doesn't really allow you to sit/settle/ruminate on things like that -while- watching, only after the fact.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:46
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Yeah and how come we never see the characters taking a poo poo? I mean Finn surely caught some sort of pathogen while drinking from that space pig trough. He had to have diarrhea for a few days at least. Show us that. Because I need to absolutely see everything and can't use my imagination for anything. I mean, the movie is only 2 hours long. I'm supposed to believe all of that happened in a matter of 2 hours? Yeah right, JJ. Learn how to make a film.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:48
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Mahoning posted:Yeah and how come we never see the characters taking a poo poo? I mean Finn surely caught some sort of pathogen while drinking from that space pig trough. He had to have diarrhea for a few days at least. Show us that. Because I need to absolutely see everything and can't use my imagination for anything. Sorry but timing is a relevant part of any story. Of course the film had 2 hours of screen time to work with. Characters getting into their ships and arriving someplace 2 minutes later, when the characters in the movie say "2 minutes have passed since that guy left!" means it takes 2 minutes to get someplace.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:54
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Frankston posted:The most jarring part of the movie for me was when the heroes all returned after Han died and Leia and Chewbacca who have been friends for 30+ years and were the two closest people to Han in the galaxy completely ignore each other in favour of Leia hugging a girl she's know for a couple of hours for some reason.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:54
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Chewie is not the film's protagonist. Rey is, that's why she gets the scene. It's the OT grieving Han's loss with the new audience.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:56
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Mahoning posted:Ask yourself if maybe there's a reason that Rey already has those powers. Maybe we don't quite know that reason yet. The main character was handed control of a powerful, mystical force without any real effort on her part. Another movie or another series and I wouldn't actually say a word, but this is Star Wars. We've seen in the past other characters taking years, DECADES even of work to achieve the same level of mastery. To see Anakin, someone who was supposed to be such a force powerhouse still require the same level of training, to see Luke going through the trials and hardships of learning the force from Obi-Wan and Yoda, then to see Rey suddenly using the Mind Trick as if it was a mere cantrip definitely felt contrived and cheap. I'm not calling it a mistake, I'm calling it a stupid decision on the part of the filmmakers.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:00
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khy posted:The main character was handed control of a powerful, mystical force without any real effort on her part. Another movie or another series and I wouldn't actually say a word, but this is Star Wars. We've seen in the past other characters taking years, DECADES even of work to achieve the same level of mastery. To see Anakin, someone who was supposed to be such a force powerhouse still require the same level of training, to see Luke going through the trials and hardships of learning the force from Obi-Wan and Yoda, then to see Rey suddenly using the Mind Trick as if it was a mere cantrip definitely felt contrived and cheap. Anakin's training was a failure and Luke only trained with Ben for the length of a space taxi ride. He only made the Death Star shot because he gave himself up to The Force on Ben's suggestion, just like Rey did.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:03
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