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Mikujin posted:It may not be en masse - and it might certainly be a bit drastic - but there's already a number of judges resigning (and/or intentionally lapsing since it's renewal season) in light of SeaGate [we need a snappier name]. This amidst other talk like strikes/denial of judging services in some groups. I know there's other judges here, so I implore you all to think long on what you want to do in the fallout of this incident, since it's always sad to see fellow judges go. I just renewed my L2, and got word that it went through before magicjudges.org got shuttered. I don't plan to quit or boycott. My biggest problem with this whole situation is the lack of transparency. A lot of the backlash could have been avoided if Helene's statement came out immediately prior to or even concurrent with the announcement of the suspensions. Toby Elliot's post that the judges were suspended as players and not as judges could have been more upfront also. A lot of the panic from judges was because they thought their judge level and position could be stripped away at a whim, but now we know that they expected Turner to come back as RC of the Southeast US in 90 days. We just started to learn about the Judge Code of Conduct, and there was a procedure, and this suspension didn't follow it. Now we know WotC's reasoning on it, but did they expect to just go "You fifteen judges are suspended and we can't talk about why, and you can't either because we're not going to tell you" and not have a near-mutiny on their hands? (Yes, apparently.) Of course, with Helene's announcement came the suspended judges saying "Well that's not what happened," but they won't comment because there's an appeals process that won't happen until January because everyone at WotC is on vacation until then. So it's just WotC's side of the story until then, and since they mishandled the announcement in the first place and tempers are hot, a lot of the judge community is hesitant to believe them. Here's notes on an MTG Focus podcast interview with Helene that sheds light on how the leak happened.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:05
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BJPaskoff posted:
So imo this is more nonsense than not. If someone posts a card here, a "closed group" and I tweet it, they might suspend me. It is my job as a DCI member to report any leak I see unless I can verify someone else leaked it first by GIS or whatever. What a load of poo poo that is.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:40
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TheKingofSprings posted:Actually that card's really funny because it would be super dead on an empty board and even more dead against a non-blue deck you can Pyroblast any permanent though? you are thinking of Red Elemental Blast
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Dec 24, 2015 08:44
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The Real Foogla posted:you can Pyroblast any permanent though? you are thinking of Red Elemental Blast Yep, Pyroblast can target any permanent, the permanent is only destroyed if it is blue, REB can only target blue permanents.
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Dec 24, 2015 08:56
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jassi007 posted:So imo this is more nonsense than not. If someone posts a card here, a "closed group" and I tweet it, they might suspend me. It is my job as a DCI member to report any leak I see unless I can verify someone else leaked it first by GIS or whatever. What a load of poo poo that is.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:01
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Devil's Advocate: WotC as a subsidiary of Hasbro, one of the biggest toy companies in the world, is under tremendous pressure to keep a tight lock on any and all Intellectual Property. Dropping the hammer on so many people in situations like this sends a message, and builds precedent.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:21
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Mince Pieface posted:I don't know if I buy that their programmers are actually significantly worse than average, tons of people want a job at Wizards (because they don't know what working there is really like, but still), and people take pay hits all the time to work at a place that seems cool. Yeah, for example there are tons of incredibly talented people working in game development and the pay there is generally dogshit. I don't really think that wizards attract the same kind of talent but there are probably decent devs there as well. I'm guessing that the real problem is over a decade of accumulated technical debt and a codebase where poo poo is impossible to fix without breaking everything else.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:23
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Insider trading is an area where information can expressly be illegal. This doesn't apply to almost anything else. The person who did something illegal is the person from WOTC who violated their contract/nda and gave some spoilers to a buddy. Before this incident, nobody in the world knew that holding a DCI membership put an obligation on you to report leaks or risk a suspension or revocation of your membership. This is literally, surprise! Secret rule, your suspended! Now, you can make a moral argument about whether or not a person should report what may be a leak. I have no argument there. The bothersome thing is Helene says in that chat log, that there are no rules about outside of game incidents other than violence, threat, theft, that would occur at a DCI event. I mean, there are kind of rules, but they won't write them down and tell you. They reserve the right to cancel your DCI membership if they feel you've done something to deserve it, but you can't know what kinds of things might cause that to happen beforehand. You can make educated guesses based on "is this in WOTC's best interests or against them" It is never fun dealing with nebulous rules.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:40
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The only person that should have been punished is the original leak. All this will do is make future leaks far harder to track down and might encourage more leaks in the future, just to stick it to the man. And that the guy who helped them track down the leak got slammed with a 3 year suspension is amazing. That will clearly motivate people to come forward in the future. And that's not even addressing the hamfisted way the broke the news, pissing off a critical group of people for their ability to market their game. This entire thing is amazing in so many ways.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:44
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Just stop playing organized magic. No trolling here. It's a card game; if you're so invested that even the remote possibility of you running afoul of WotC's whims (a bad argument in and of itself, but whatever) causes you to get mad, put down your cardboard, read a book, and maybe play something that you don't quite care about as much. Like some of the eurogames Chill la Chill won't shut up about. A DCI suspension shouldn't matter all that much to anyone besides the people who make a living off of the game. You can still play magic with friends or in unofficial tournaments, and that's really what the majority of magic players do. E: this was directed at the guy who wants very specific DCI guidelines for what you can be banned for
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Dec 24, 2015 09:49
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GeneX posted:Just stop playing organized magic. No trolling here. One of my gimmicks is to take posts from Reddit and MTGSalvation that are silly and post them here ironically. I think this whole uproar is loving hilarious.
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Dec 24, 2015 09:52
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Mikujin posted:I'm really happy that Helene agreed to the interview but even more disappointed in WotC after listening through. Obviously there's some bias in the non-interview segment, but it really seems like WotC's expectations of their playerbase (REPORT ALL THE NEW CARDS YOU SEE ANYWHERE FOREVER) is rather unreasonable, and their response to this situation rather disproporionate. WOTC's position is apparently that the community exists as some kind of Borg-like entity whose purpose is to assist WOTC in making money. I mean, they put crucial elements of their business (e.g. message boards, judges, etc.) in the hands of third-parties because its free for them.
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Dec 24, 2015 10:12
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kizudarake posted:One of my gimmicks is to take posts from Reddit and MTGSalvation that are silly and post them here ironically. Fuckin broke kayfabe. Shaaaame.
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Dec 24, 2015 10:56
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kizudarake posted:One of my gimmicks is to take posts from Reddit and MTGSalvation that are silly and post them here ironically. Well goddamn. I was owned pretty loving hard.
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Dec 24, 2015 12:51
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I am a Magic Judge. I am a Magic Judge. I’ve worked hard to be able to call myself that. I’ve been mentored while working events, pre-tested, and tested. I’ve helped to foster the spirit of good sportsmanship between players and within Communities. I am a Magic Judge. My road has been difficult. Sometimes I work an event with no expectation of remuneration. Other times, I’ve been well compensated - but the hours are long and the gratitude can be sparse. I review myself constantly. I review other Judges and their actions. I am, in turn, reviewed and hope that someone points out an area I can improve. I am a Magic Judge. I spend time networking, teaching, and supporting. I have a cadre of friends, players and fellow Judges alike, who all help to prop me up for the next event. I live more off of high fives and smiles then I do off of compensation that often won’t cover much more than my travel expenses for the event given my place in the program. I am a Magic Judge. My goal is to learn more every day and to be an asset to those around me. To be valued by TO’s. To be appreciated by players. To bring a sense of style and fair play to everyone I interact with at my LGS or GP. I live for that moment when someone yells, ‘Judge!’ in a crowded hall. I’m a Magic Judge. I don’t Judge because I need some form of validation or because I want to be the ‘boss’. A shocking number of my contemporaries are introverts. Some of us even have difficulty leaving our house or being around groups of more than a few people. We Judge for the love of the game. I am a Magic Judge. I walk miles of concrete flooring to take calls, distribute slips, watch matches, and clean up tables. I wish I could harness the energy of a fully-staffed GP - I sometimes think we’d give the 300 Spartans at the Battle of Thermopylae a run for their money. Romantic thoughts aside, the love for the game expressed by those who choose to ‘take the black’ is second to none in the gaming industry. I am a Magic Judge. I’ll continue to Judge and hope that my community will respect my desire to help them, even as I see the program questioned from every angle this week. I’ll watch, assimilate new data, and hopefully find ways to see the positive in all of this turmoil. I’ll bide my time and until I’m actually asked for an opinion, I’ll do my job which is essentially a combination of volunteer and independent contractor (depending on the role I’m in at that moment). I am a Magic Judge. I ask members of the community to recognize the program itself, from its core to the farthest reaches of our service area, is strong and will continue to produce arbitrators you can trust. I’m thankful to be a Judge and even more thankful to be in a position where I can help others pursue becoming a Judge. I am a Magic Judge.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:56
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Angry Grimace posted:WOTC's position is apparently that the community exists as some kind of Borg-like entity whose purpose is to assist WOTC in making money.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:20
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Mikujin posted:in light of SeaGate [we need a snappier name]. I humbly suggest "Wastewater."
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Dec 24, 2015 16:25
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Yawgmoth posted:And that's really the brass tacks of the problem; they don't see their customers as people who need to be drawn in (and kept in), they see them as wallets whose money already belongs to them and how dare you not give it to us. Which obviously has the exact opposite effect and debacles like this only punctuate their complete lack of respect for the people ultimately responsible for their continued employment. Man, I can't wait to see how a CCG giant reinterprets and implements their version of GW's numerous business fuckups over the years if they go whole hog on this ideology. Maybe they'll erect a giant statue of Maro at their HQ. E: lvl 2 judge friend said he's gonna lapse and just do FNM now, and maybe get rid of the rest of his MTG stuff over the next year Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 16:26
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The idea that WOTC wants players to supplement their lovely security for them or get 3 year bans is pretty hilarious.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:40
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I'm changing absolutely zero about how I interact with Magic. I got into and Judge because I wanted my community to grow and get better events (so I can play the game with more cool people) and I was never under the impression that WOTC, players, or even the Judge community gave a single gently caress about my contribution so this event doesn't sour me at all as far as Judging is concerned. I will also continue to give zero fucks about WOTC's precious marketing schedule, I will discuss leaked cards, post them, and I'm not reporting anything, I will happily eat a ban and move on with my life. EDIT: Also LMAO at the comments from Toby Elliot about it not affecting their status as Judges. If something you've done is bad enough to warrant a suspension, it drat well should affect your standing as a Judge. IMO its basically an admission that what they did nothing wrong /is harmless and they are only being suspended because WOTC threw a temper tantrum. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 16:50
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Snacksmaniac posted:I am a Magic Judge. Where's this from? I want to see the comments.
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Dec 24, 2015 16:52
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Yawgmoth posted:And that's really the brass tacks of the problem; they don't see their customers as people who need to be drawn in (and kept in), they see them as wallets whose money already belongs to them and how dare you not give it to us. Which obviously has the exact opposite effect and debacles like this only punctuate their complete lack of respect for the people ultimately responsible for their continued employment. This is only a debacle because dudes on the internet blow things way out of proportion. From my understanding it's like 15 dudes total, and only a handful of those even got the large ban (the ones who were somehow more directly involved with the leaks). Nobody here has reported that they've been banned, despite seeing the leaks and discussing them. And there's to my knowledge been waves of bannings of everyone who discussed the leaks. Wizards hosed up from the perspective they underestimated how much nerds will work themselves up over nothing. They were likely a little heavyhanded but that should only matter to the dudes directly involved. It's obvious WotC has always thought of leaks as being harmful to them and they're trying to make sure people understand that. Also your first sentence describes pretty much every company everywhere. Even if this situation was somehow some giant LACK OF RESPECT FOR CUSTOMERS thing, which it isn't.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:03
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kizudarake posted:Where's this from? I want to see the comments. Charles Featherer wrote it, I think, but I've seen a lot of judges posting it around.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:27
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kizudarake posted:Where's this from? I want to see the comments. It's an original post on the Something Awful Traditional Games forum by poster "Snacksmaniac." OR I stole it from /r/mtgjudge or w/e
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Dec 24, 2015 17:29
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mcmagic posted:The idea that WOTC wants players to supplement their lovely security for them or get 3 year bans is pretty hilarious. I kinda want to be a sassy devil and report Making Magic during spoiler season one of these days, because it's a leak of a card from an upcoming set coming from a closed group - Magic R&D. It would accomplish nothing and make everything worse, natch.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:30
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Count me as one of the judges who doesn't care some people got suspended.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:54
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everyone complaining about leaks and bans and I'm just over here casting t1 channel into emrakul nbd
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Dec 24, 2015 18:01
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Gyshall posted:everyone complaining about leaks and bans and I'm just over here casting t1 channel into emrakul nbd I have never achieved that in cube. I've gotten the zuran orb/fastbond/crucible combo. I've gotten like every permutation of twin. I've tinkered T1 for blightsteel, and I've gotten Ral Zarek/Time Vault while it existed but somehow, every single time I pick channel, I get no goddamn eldrazi
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Dec 24, 2015 18:05
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Ciprian Maricon posted:
On the breast of his red t-shirt, in crude red plastic, surrounded with an elaborate pageantry of SCG IQ top 8 pins and fantastic flourishes of silver adhesive, appeared the letter S. Maybe suspensions aren't really that big of a deal. Zoness fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 18:12
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i'd never trust a judge who did something as heinous as not tell wotc abt leaked cards...smdh...
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Dec 24, 2015 18:14
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How long until Gfabs gets suspended again for explaining that correlation does not imply causation to a judge 
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Dec 24, 2015 18:19
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"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." -Helene Bergeot, Maro 5:17
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Dec 24, 2015 18:44
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black potus posted:"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." -Helene Bergeot, Maro 5:17 "First they came for the judges, and I said nothing, because I was not a judge."
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Dec 24, 2015 18:52
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You have been found guilty, but not, like, so guilty that we'll say no to you putting in long minimum wage hours to make our game playable.
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Dec 24, 2015 18:52
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Consider this as part of the reason the judges recieved suspensions: Wizards just put up an incredibly passive aggressive spoiler of all of Oath's expeditions titled Never A Wasted Holiday Wizards posted:We here at Wizards of the Coast are never ones to waste a holiday. Throughout the magical land of Renton, we celebrate everything—even the most devious ways to deny our own festivities. Though they lay waste to the merry expeditions, we might... poo poo like this makes the suspensions look retaliatory for both leaks, which (imo) makes them look even worse.
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Dec 24, 2015 18:54
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Niton posted:
Are you loving kidding me? They ban people for not reporting leaks and then say, "If you haven't had a chance to see them" ? What a bunch of idiots.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:00
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End of Life Guy posted:
To be fair blind people definitely wouldn't have had the chance to see them? Where are the braille spoilers?
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Dec 24, 2015 19:02
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End of Life Guy posted:Are you loving kidding me? They ban people for not reporting leaks and then say, "If you haven't had a chance to see them" ? Wizards is valiantly rectifying the information disparity created by those evil leakers, sharing the information with the less-enfranchised huddled masses who F5 the WotC site continuously during holidays but have no idea that reddit exists.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:10
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That's not the rest. There's still one or two we don't know about.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:12
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Yeah, I'm expecting a UR manland.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:14
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