MonsieurChoc posted:How so? That's a bold claim. Okay. The path of the Jedi would have led Luke to not go to Cloud City, dooming the Rebellion and him, because he wouldn't have learned about his relationship until his final confrontation with Vader. The reason for this is transparently that the Jedi aren't supposed to be attached to the world, and Luke should be able to condemn his friends to torture and death, and murder his father in single combat. Luke refuses the Jedi way, however, and throws away his weapon, and calls upon his attachments- twice. And he triumphs. So, Luke rejects the Force in your model, and adopts the corruption of it, and this is a good thing? This is nonsense. For it to make sense, we have to ignore all the Dagobah scenes.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:45
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ImpAtom posted:Okay. Why do you think Wedge, a trainer fighter pilot and member of the resistance, was wrong? When people say something if impossible, they usually mean "really drat difficult". Was Wedge skeptical? Sure, but clearly not to the point of abandoning the mission.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:47
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Effectronica posted:TFA positions the character's abilities with a lightsaber as a direct outgrowth of their confidence and emotional state. Finn does pretty well until Stormtrooper with Laser Chainsaw, and then he's lacking in confidence for the rest of the film, leading to his defeat. Rey isn't confident with the lightsaber and is losing until she faces a choice between death and surrender- and chooses death, allowing her to overcome Ren, who also loses confidence at that point. This is true and again on a much more literal level, the film establishes Chewie's crossbow as a deadly and effective weapon in multiple prior scenes, and makes an effort to remind the audience right before the climactic duel that Kylo Ren has been gut-shot and is seriously (possibly mortally, without Snoke's intervention) injured from the beginning.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:48
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PiedPiper posted:When people say something if impossible, they usually mean "really drat difficult". Was Wedge skeptical? Sure, but clearly not to the point of abandoning the mission. They don't exactly have anywhere to go, or anything else to fall back on. Besides- the computer does fail to make the shot. Wedge was right.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:48
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PiedPiper posted:When people say something if impossible, they usually mean "really drat difficult". Was Wedge skeptical? Sure, but clearly not to the point of abandoning the mission. They couldn't abandon the mission because the Death Star was closing in on their base. They had an infinitely small chance of success but it was the only chance they had. It obviously wasn't literally impossible because it happened but if Luke could have succeeded with his targeting computer then he wouldn't have needed to turn it off. That's kind of the entire point. Wedge is right. It is impossible even with a computer. It's just not impossible if you have space magic guiding you.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:48
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Effectronica posted:Okay. The path of the Jedi would have led Luke to not go to Cloud City, dooming the Rebellion and him, because he wouldn't have learned about his relationship until his final confrontation with Vader. No, Yoda and Obi-Wan are still out of balance, still set in the old ways. They try to convince Luke to isolate himself from the world to finish his training, when being part of things is part of his journey. Like, the whole point of the prequels was that the Jedi had lost their way. They are proven wrong in RotJ when Luke saves Vader rather than kill him.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:50
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You guys are listening to Fake Wedge and putting faith in his beliefs, don't listen to Fake Wedge. http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-mysteries-hunting-for-the-fake-wedge
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Dec 27, 2015 22:50
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Effectronica posted:They don't exactly have anywhere to go, or anything else to fall back on. Besides- the computer does fail to make the shot. Wedge was right. No, alright. Let's go your way. Wedge was right, it's impossible to do. So what made Luke succeed? Did he use the Force to manipulate his blast, then?
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Dec 27, 2015 22:51
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MonsieurChoc posted:No, Yoda and Obi-Wan are still out of balance, still set in the old ways. They try to convince Luke to isolate himself from the world to finish his training, when being part of things is part of his journey. Okay, so the only difference is terminology. No biggie.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:52
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so the only difference is terminology. No biggie. Nah, it's a pretty big difference thematically. The "right way" is harmony with the universe, not dogmatic adherence to the "right side". It's very different from a Good vs Evil dualism. I don't know why people want to prove me wrong somehow. I mostly expected people not to give a poo poo.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:53
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PiedPiper posted:No, alright. Let's go your way. Wedge was right, it's impossible to do. So what made Luke succeed? Did he use the Force to manipulate his blast, then? The Force guided him to fire the torpedoes at the right moment, which the targeting computer was unable to do. Thus, the shot was "impossible, even for a computer."
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Dec 27, 2015 22:54
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PiedPiper posted:No, alright. Let's go your way. Wedge was right, it's impossible to do. So what made Luke succeed? Did he use the Force to manipulate his blast, then? The generous reading is that Luke's use of the Force told him the exact unquestioned second he'd need to fire for things to be in an absurdly unlikely position for the torpedos to go in. Some people also argue that, due to the fact the torpedos seem to bend, Luke manipulated them to make an impossible turn. Regardless, the point is still that it is not a shot he could have made without The Force.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:54
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MonsieurChoc posted:Nah, it's a pretty big difference thematically. The "right way" is harmony with the universe, not dogmatic adherence to the "right side". It's very different from a Good vs Evil dualism. But it's not "good versus evil", since Maz implicitly calls both dark and light good in TFA.
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Dec 27, 2015 22:55
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MonsieurChoc posted:Nah, it's a pretty big difference thematically. The "right way" is harmony with the universe, not dogmatic adherence to the "right side". It's very different from a Good vs Evil dualism. Discussion is fun? And you haven't elaborated on how this functionally changes things, or makes things less interesting in the films. How is Rey's choices and journey effected by this wording, compared to Luke's? Isn't it just "don't go to the dark side", be good and stuff? Be a jedi, not like the spooky bad guy? What's your problem specifically, other than the wording using "light"? I'm sure Rey will still have to make decisions and whatnot regarding morality and everything. Why would the use of a particular word change that? And who in Episode 7 says Rey needs to have dogmatic adherence to something in order to succeed? Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 22:56
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Heavy Metal posted:Discussion is fun? And you haven't elaborated on how this functionally changes things, or makes things less interesting in the films. How is Rey's choices and journey effected by this wording, compared to Luke's? Isn't it just "don't go to the dark side", be good and stuff? Be a jedi, not like the spooky bad guy? What's your problem specifically, other than the wording using "light"? Why would two completely different view of Morality be exactly the same? I thought I was being pretty clear with my comparison between Buddhism and Zoroastrianism.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:00
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PiedPiper posted:No, alright. Let's go your way. Wedge was right, it's impossible to do. So what made Luke succeed? Did he use the Force to manipulate his blast, then? 
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Dec 27, 2015 23:01
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MonsieurChoc posted:Why would two completely different view of Morality be exactly the same? Effectively, going by what we see in the movie, how is what transpires completely different? You say it will make things less interesting. That's the main thing that matters, the movie. She "uses the force" as Luke is told to, and she defeats the evil dark side guy for now. As far as we can tell, things are the same as ever in the films in regards to well adjusted good people vs dark side users, the continuing battle. You have a pet peeve with using a word to describe force users who aren't into the dark side, but what tangibly is the issue? What do you think it will effect in the movie specifically? Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 23:02
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ImpAtom posted:The generous reading is that Luke's use of the Force told him the exact unquestioned second he'd need to fire for things to be in an absurdly unlikely position for the torpedos to go in. Some people also argue that, due to the fact the torpedos seem to bend, Luke manipulated them to make an impossible turn. Regardless, the point is still that it is not a shot he could have made without The Force. I dunno, man. Again, my reading was always that others were too reliant on computer data, while Luke was able to pull it off by trusting himself and his instincts. Him turning off the computer is a way of telling us, the audience, that he wants to do things his way. Bending torpedoes or something sounds awfully like cheating, and to me, personally, Star Wars was never about that kind of magic. Eh, we're obviously going in circles here. We might as well stop.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:03
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Are we seriously arguing whether the Force was involved in the scene where Ghost Ben goes "Use The Force!"? Trusting in his abilities and using The Force are one and the same.
Motto fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 23:12
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My read on force theology is that both "dark" passions and other emotions exist naturally and are not to be condemned, but rather kept mindfully close and held in balance. "Your feelings do you credit," not "Your feelings must be suppressed." The PT Jedi were holding that balance in an inorganic way and their blindnesses were exploited, but they weren't completely wrong stupid idiots forever. Even Luke could rightfully be seen as coming from the Jedi tradition (which he also personally owns) even if his personal experience and theological expressions would have probably not accorded perfectly with those of the masters of yore. I think TFA does show a problem here, which is that Luke has certainly conquered the Sith and has overcome the dark side within himself, at least until proven otherwise. However, it's clear that his practice had flaws, somehow or other - we don't know how but it's clear he failed Ben Solo, who was his own nephew. Why? How? Dunno. I imagine that's what Luke's been asking himself while hanging out on Scotland Planet. I do think it would be kind of weak if the answer is solely, "Luke made no error and Snoke shot mind rays into Kylo Ren." I don't think it will be "Jedi training is stupid and inherently doomed." (It's possible the story of how Kylo became an rear end in a top hat will even validate some aspects of the Republic era Jedi.) But it's clear an error was made somewhere, even if it's an error of tragic good intentions rather than dark malice.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:13
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PiedPiper posted:I dunno, man. Again, my reading was always that others were too reliant on computer data, while Luke was able to pull it off by trusting himself and his instincts. Him turning off the computer is a way of telling us, the audience, that he wants to do things his way. Bending torpedoes or something sounds awfully like cheating, and to me, personally, Star Wars was never about that kind of magic. It also begs the question of why if the torpedoes needed to be fired down a shaft they would be firing them perpendicular to the shaft. Effectronica posted:Her wearing her heart on her sleeve leads to her failure to reach Ren at the end of the film- she gives into her righteous anger at his murdering, and a chasm opens up between them. So she tries to kill the bad guy who murdered her friend, and that's a sign of wearing your heart on your sleeve, and is thus a character flaw? And your second statement is again the only real time she messes up in the movie. Her one scene of misstep that doesn't lead directly to success. Practically flawless. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 23:15
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Motto posted:Are we seriously arguing whether the Force was involved in the scene where Ghost Ben goes "Use The Force!"? Our argument started by me comparing how Luke destroyed Death Star versus how Rey defeated Kylo Ren. If all it takes to succeed is to simply "use the Force" (even if you've never been taught to), then it turns out Luke is a pretty slow learner and Rey shits all over him.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:16
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PiedPiper posted:Our argument started by me comparing how Luke destroyed Death Star versus how Rey defeated Kylo Ren. If all it takes to succeed is to simply "use the Force" (even if you've never been taught to), then it turns out Luke is a pretty slow learner and Rey shits all over him. Why? They both learn the same lesson in the end.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:18
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PiedPiper posted:Our argument started by me comparing how Luke destroyed Death Star versus how Rey defeated Kylo Ren. If all it takes to succeed is to simply "use the Force" (even if you've never been taught to), then it turns out Luke is a pretty slow learner and Rey shits all over him. Almost every single bit of Yoda's training to Luke is teaching him to let go and open himself up. Luke's challenge is not using the force it is allowing himself to use the force. ("Use the Force. Let go.") He does it in that momenta and trusts in the Force despite it being seemingly crazy. He just has trouble doing that again. Yes. All you need to do to succeed is to use the Force. That's it. It's, however, a lot easier to SAY it than to DO it.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:18
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Nessus posted:My read on force theology is that both "dark" passions and other emotions exist naturally and are not to be condemned, but rather kept mindfully close and held in balance. "Your feelings do you credit," not "Your feelings must be suppressed." The PT Jedi were holding that balance in an inorganic way and their blindnesses were exploited, but they weren't completely wrong stupid idiots forever. Even Luke could rightfully be seen as coming from the Jedi tradition (which he also personally owns) even if his personal experience and theological expressions would have probably not accorded perfectly with those of the masters of yore. Kylo may blame several people, and several people may blame themselves, but Kylo could just be a messed up bad apple. We'll have to see how it turns out, but I doubt we'll find ourselves really blaming Luke. Kylo is responsible for his own actions.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:18
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PiedPiper posted:Our argument started by me comparing how Luke destroyed Death Star versus how Rey defeated Kylo Ren. If all it takes to succeed is to simply "use the Force" (even if you've never been taught to), then it turns out Luke is a pretty slow learner and Rey shits all over him. The two scenarios are thematically the same: the protagonist achieves an impossible task upon entrusting their fate to a higher power. Rey being able to give herself up to The Force in that one instance doesn't imply great ability.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:20
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PiedPiper posted:Our argument started by me comparing how Luke destroyed Death Star versus how Rey defeated Kylo Ren. If all it takes to succeed is to simply "use the Force" (even if you've never been taught to), then it turns out Luke is a pretty slow learner and Rey shits all over him. These make for a pretty poor one-to-one comparison to begin with because Luke is targeting onboard weaponry and the Rey is caught in face to face melee combat, but ANH went out of its way to show how humanly impossible Luke's task was, and TFA went out of its way to bring Ren down to a level that Rey could match. The comparison becomes further poo poo when comparing Ren losing his confidence--without which Rey would have had a few lucky blows but nothing else--with a nonliving exhaust port. rockopete fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 23:22
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Kaedusz of the SWTOR forums posted:Just watched it. Immediately after that i went to youtube and watched the Sidious vs Yoda duel, some kotor 2 cutscenes, and my own video fraps files on the PC about the Sith Warrior storyline to ritually cleanse myself.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:23
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Heavy Metal posted:Kylo may blame several people, and several people may blame themselves, but Kylo could just be a messed up bad apple. We'll have to see how it turns out, but I doubt we'll find ourselves really blaming Luke. Kylo is responsible for his own actions.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:24
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Okay so despite the nerdy light side nitpick there is an actual problem I think the movie had with the force. There's hardly any mysticism. It never explains or emphasizes how the force is this mysterious thing that surrounds and connects us. It's just taken for granted that you know what it is already. And I know JJ's gung-ho about making a movie for the fans, but it's been almost a decade since the last Star Wars movie and this is the start of a new trilogy. You could have gone into it in a new way so it wouldn't get redundant or boring for fans. And despite the movie being called "the force awakens" it doesn't communicate that idea very well. All we get is a totally abstract line from Snoke that yes, the force is in fact awakening, because he feels it. If I was directing the movie I would have used some kind of visual storytelling to help the audience make sense of it, to make it meaningful. Stuff like opening eyes, blooming flowers, rising suns, etc as motifs. Maybe show people surprising themselves by immediately finding something they're looking for because they just intuitively know where it is, or telling when someone else is lying without understanding how. I don't know.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:24
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It's impossible to be a living human being in the year 2015 and not know what The Force is and whether it's mystical or not.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:30
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rockopete posted:These make for a pretty poor one-to-one comparison to begin with because Luke is targeting onboard weaponry and the Rey is caught in face to face melee combat, but ANH went out of its way to show how humanly impossible Luke's task was, and TFA went out of its way to bring Ren down to a level that Rey could match. The comparison becomes further poo poo when comparing Ren losing his confidence--without which Rey would have had a few lucky blows but nothing else--with a nonliving exhaust port. Luke needed more than three years to learn the feats Rey successfully pulled off in, like, two hours. There was no clear sense of progress, is what I'm saying.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:30
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Jewel Repetition posted:Okay so despite the nerdy light side nitpick there is an actual problem I think the movie had with the force. There's hardly any mysticism. It never explains or emphasizes how the force is this mysterious thing that surrounds and connects us. It's just taken for granted that you know what it is already. And I know JJ's gung-ho about making a movie for the fans, but it's been almost a decade since the last Star Wars movie and this is the start of a new trilogy. You could have gone into it in a new way so it wouldn't get redundant or boring for fans. Finn awakens from his white toaster programming. Rey awakens to her destiny as a Jedi. R2D2 literally wakes up at the end of the movie. Kylo Ren doesn't give a poo poo about all these awakenings and keeps doing what he's been doing. I don't think Snoke meant "there has been an awakening" like the Force has been dormant and now people can use it again. It has always been there, and some people will always be naturally attuned to it ex. Maz. But now through a series of "coincidences" the Force is guiding together some kind of opposition to Snoke's plans.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:32
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Luke and Rey both do a use-the-Force move after two hours. Actually it takes her two and a half hours.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:32
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PiedPiper posted:Luke needed more than three years to learn the feats Rey successfully pulled off in, like, two hours. There was no clear sense of progress, is what I'm saying. Your mistake is in assuming a hierarchy of abilities. There is none. There is only letting go and being guided by the Force.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:33
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PiedPiper posted:Our argument started by me comparing how Luke destroyed Death Star versus how Rey defeated Kylo Ren. If all it takes to succeed is to simply "use the Force" (even if you've never been taught to), then it turns out Luke is a pretty slow learner and Rey shits all over him. Luke was a farm boy living a relatively normal life with his aunt and uncle. Rey was a survivor living in a harsh environment and culture who likely had to fight everyday.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:36
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Luke didn't get to mindchat with any Force users either. He had to learn the dumb slow way of listening to some old guy and trying to take what he said as real while Han Solo was dicking around in the background.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:38
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I'll settle this argument by referring to RPG stats, which tell us that the "concentration" power is actually tucked in a higher skill tree than "telekinesis".
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Dec 27, 2015 23:45
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They didn't use the term "light side" in the original trilogy but Luke spoke of the "good side" a couple of times. It's pretty clearly the exact same thing.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:15
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I don't care about the EU but there pretty obviously has to be something to balance, and if one side is the dark side then that makes the other one pretty obvious.
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Dec 28, 2015 00:21
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