|
Dapper_Swindler posted:I dont think its more liberterian, i think its more Cap wants to keep bucky from justifiably going to jail. yeah bucky was brainwashed to poo poo and back but he still killed dozens of shield agents plus JFK. the government wants him gone, super jail or dead. but cap doesnt want that because he is "muh friend" in either case i actualy agree with stark on this one. Yeah this is what I am hoping. I am hoping the trailer just cut that one line weirdly and that the movie really won't have this anti-regulation feel to it. The one line I am talking about is the "If we can't accept limitations, we're no better than the bad guys" to which Cap replies that he doesn't see it that way. In the context of what was shown up to that point (the government talking about supervision and consequences) it can read pretty anti regulation, but like I said, I hope it is just a weird cut for the trailer.
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 18:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 20:36 |
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:A good barometer for people when it comes to stuff like this and Breaking Bad is to see how they feel about Walter turning down the job offer and healthcare coverage from his rich friend. I've seen a lot of people defend him not wanting to take "the hand out", while unironically finding his murderous actions after that point cool. One of my favorite questions to ask people about BB is when they finally turned on Walt. His actions can be justified less and less and eventually most people finally reach the "Wow gently caress this guy." stage at 4 or 5 main plot points. It's a great way to learn how to take a step back from whatever it is your doing and examine how hosed up things can be.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 18:19
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:I think the problem there is that it's pretty clear the initial idea was one side being "can we really trust masked vigilantes to do the right thing when they take the law into their own hands" and the other being "yeah but the government has a lot of shady history when it comes to people with powers". But honestly asking the first question undercuts the genre of superhero comics pretty deeply, and the setting wouldn't be allowed to return to the status quo as always expected if so. In the end writers had to make it pure black and white where the first side was going full-bore fascist and the second had to retroactively insist that like after literally leveling cities on blind rampages the Hulk had never let a single person die. the problem is you cant use the original plot for civil war can't be used (legal stuff, mutants not existing in MCU, keeping canon with other movies) while i like the original, its pretty black and white. this one at least has some grey in it which will make nerds debate who is right or not. CommieGIR posted:Which is why a lot of analysts were saying he was likely a psychopath, because most soldiers are generally pretty mum about the people they've had to kill, let alone very proud of having done it. At most, most soldiers just say 'I did what I had to do'. probaly. then again, i am sure alot of those spec ops guys have to have some mental imbalances to do all the stuff. but most never talk about that stuff either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:the problem is you cant use the original plot for civil war can't be used (legal stuff, mutants not existing in MCU, keeping canon with other movies) while i like the original, its pretty black and white. this one at least has some grey in it which will make nerds debate who is right or not. I'm not saying the movie should use the comic book plot, I'm just saying that the genre of superheroes demanded that the comic book plot never have any reasonable moral dilemma outside the most skin-deep, in the moment character stuff.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 18:28
|
|
|
Aesop Poprock posted:There are also protagonists like Alex from Clockwork Orange that I think are crafted to be actively despised the more you learn about them. Walter White is still fairly humanized and relatable because of what we know about him even when he reaches the pinacle of his druglord poo poo Watching Jane die of a drug overdose was rough, but still self-defense (she was making Jesse unstable). But telling Jesse, "I watched Jane die." Ok, that was cold. I think I really started to hate him when he let himself into the house and told Skylar to call the cops all she wanted, he was staying no matter how toxic and dangerous he was. Which he did for the same reason he did just about everything else: He was incredibly egotistical, bitter, and selfish. Alex actually grows up in Chapter 21 of A Clockwork Orange, but the Kubrick film only follows his story up to Chapter 20. The author was not pleased. Speaking of Right-Wing stuff, my family got together for our Christmas yesterday and I found one thing refreshing: My niece is engaged to a very nice young lady and they were talking about moving into their new place together. The question was put to my extremely God-fearing mother about bed frames: Can they be resized? She didn't quail at the ZOMG my granddaughter is going to be sharing one bed with a girl aspect, they just talked about bedframes. No drama at all. It was a nice day. Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 19:03
|
|
|
Dr. Faustus posted:Speaking of Right-Wing stuff, my family got together for our Christmas yesterday and I found one thing refreshing: My niece is engaged to a very nice young lady and they were talking about moving into their new place together. The question was put to my extremely God-fearing mother about bed frames: Can they be resized? She didn't quail at the ZOMG my granddaughter is going to be sharing one bed with a girl aspect, they just talked about bedframes. No drama at all. It was a nice day. Just don't let her know that the reason it needs to be resized is because the bed has to safely hold all the crazy gay orgies they are clearly going to have.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 19:27
|
|
|
Dr. Faustus posted:I think Walter worked out that the nursing home had thick walls that would contain the blast to Salamanco's room. Maybe. unless the hospices in new mexico are built like blast-proof bunkers i think walt just didn't give a poo poo about collateral damage when he was setting up a hit on the drug lord who was going to kill him
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 19:31
|
|
|
Everything I know about Breaking Bad, I learned from the Breaking Bad/Downton Abbey crossover skit that Stephen Colbert made.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 19:34
|
|
|
StandardVC10 posted:Everything I know about Breaking Bad, I learned from the Breaking Bad/Downton Abbey crossover skit that Stephen Colbert made. I need to watch breaking bad, I know the basic outline of the show from cultural osmosis. but i have heard its good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
I take the whole hero/antagonist argument with a grain of salt. Most of this country reads at like an 8th grade level (this explains why the Maze Runner, Hunger Games, Divergent series are mega popular) so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that most people don't actually get the message about being a bad guy. It's why college kids have Tony Montana posters and airbrushed hats. Most people see these characters and take everything at face-value. They don't bother to look at the characters lives or decisions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 19:57
|
|
|
Beastie posted:Most of this country reads at like an 8th grade level Incidentally, "reading level" is just "how many syllables are in your words", not any measure of actual intelligence.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
Dr. Faustus posted:Watching Jane die of a drug overdose was rough, but still self-defense (she was making Jesse unstable). This is the most hosed up definition of self-defense I have ever seen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:44
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:This is the most hosed up definition of self-defense I have ever seen. And yet they laughed at Varg Vikernes...
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:47
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:This is the most hosed up definition of self-defense I have ever seen. It was justified. There's no way Walt could trust that B.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:unless the hospices in new mexico are built like blast-proof bunkers i think walt just didn't give a poo poo about collateral damage when he was setting up a hit on the drug lord who was going to kill him It's mentioned I think on the radio that the building's walls contained the blast and so only three died (Slamanco, Gustavo, Tyrus). He's ruthless, but not necessarily THAT ruthless. It's left open to interpretation, at least. Great show. I have the BluRay Barrel set. I wish I had more time to watch TV, I'd love to binge-watch it. Alas, so much great TV, so little time.... WampaLord posted:This is the most hosed up definition of self-defense I have ever seen. VV He also sent the little old lady with the cane to check on the house when the gunmen were there. VV Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
Walter White, Evil Genius Meth Amphetamine Cook and Hero of the show Breaking Bad. Also, he only poisoned that one kid a little.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:50
|
|
|
MariusLecter posted:Walter White, Evil Genius Meth Amphetamine Cook and Hero of the show Breaking Bad. And by letting Jane die, her father had a nervous breakdown in the airport control tower and made some planes crash. So... I guess through a ripple effect Walter actually murdered a shitload of people.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
MariusLecter posted:Walter White, Evil Genius Meth Amphetamine Cook and Hero of the show Breaking Bad. ehh, i like stannis from game of thrones. (one true king motherfuckers) and is/was probably one of the few "good" potential "rulers but even he burned his 10 year old daughter to death on pyre for a god that may or may not be a daemon or may not even be real. then he died like tard to one of my other favorite characters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 20:59
|
|
|
Thump! posted:So... I guess through a ripple effect Walter actually murdered a shitload of people. yeah, it's not like he was a meth cook or anything
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
Yeah if you look past all of the evil poo poo he did he was a pretty nice guy. But you know, you start one career as a murderous drug lord and people never let you forget it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
Its kind of tough for me to get upset about this sort of stuff when I got a "these badasses wouldn't stand doooowwwwnnnn!" trailer for Michael Bay's loving Benghazi movie during football.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:36
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Its kind of tough for me to get upset about this sort of stuff when I got a "these badasses wouldn't stand doooowwwwnnnn!" trailer for Michael Bay's loving Benghazi movie during football. you could make a movie about Benghazi. it would be about the actual people who loving died. it would be a tragic human story about people who were just doing their jobs and helping other people whos lives were cut short by dickheads. maybe it would include a scene of the Libyans draging stevens out of the car and trying to save his life. the people he had grown close to trying to desperatly save him. but not. its gonna be right wingej ejaculation about loving sellswords who did jack poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:45
|
|
|
OxySnake posted:One of my favorite questions to ask people about BB is when they finally turned on Walt. His actions can be justified less and less and eventually most people finally reach the "Wow gently caress this guy." stage at 4 or 5 main plot points. I'd say letting Jane die was the first really unforgivable thing he did. The worst, though, has to be having nine witnesses murdered in prison. I've always considered killing witnesses a particularly heinous crime, though in this case they were all at least somewhat complicit in other crimes. Thump! posted:And by letting Jane die, her father had a nervous breakdown in the airport control tower and made some planes crash. This, on the other hand, was stupid. One guy at the FAA has a bad day and hundreds of people die? They have better safeguards than that, or else we'd be hearing about plane crashes all the time. It was just a really contrived way to make Walter responsible for lots of death, and really disappointing given they spent the whole season hinting at something bad that was coming. Dapper_Swindler posted:I dont think its more liberterian, i think its more Cap wants to keep bucky from justifiably going to jail. yeah bucky was brainwashed to poo poo and back but he still killed dozens of shield agents plus JFK. the government wants him gone, super jail or dead. but cap doesnt want that because he is "muh friend" in either case i actualy agree with stark on this one. This also seems contrived. You'd think that Captain America, living legend, would be able to testify that Bucky was tortured and brainwashed and get him into a psychiatric hospital. Maybe if it took place right after Winter Soldier and he'd had to go on the run, but Age of Ultron came after that, and I assume that got him back in the government's good graces.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:47
|
|
|
Jurgan posted:I'd say letting Jane die was the first really unforgivable thing he did. The worst, though, has to be having nine witnesses murdered in prison. I've always considered killing witnesses a particularly heinous crime, though in this case they were all at least somewhat complicit in other crimes. I think something happens, where a ton of people die. (like the school in the comics) and bucky is blamed for it. and general ross wants the super heros under government control instead of shields.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:51
|
|
|
Jurgan posted:This also seems contrived. You'd think that Captain America, living legend, would be able to testify that Bucky was tortured and brainwashed and get him into a psychiatric hospital. Maybe if it took place right after Winter Soldier and he'd had to go on the run, but Age of Ultron came after that, and I assume that got him back in the government's good graces. Hydra's still around, putting Bucky into any kind of system is more or less giving them free reign to either re-brainwash him, or to just outright murder him to keep him from spilling anything he might know. Also, considering Stark, and by the government's reasoning, The Avengers were responsible for Ultron in the first place, I doubt Cap even gets a polite reception from anyone in charge.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:55
|
|
|
In this story where a 100 year old superman saves his ninja ww2 buddy from the clutches of the US govt, the part I find implausible is America being spurred into action because of a flashy media-ready massacre at a school.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:59
|
|
|
According to CNN, the San Bernadino shooting was the #1 "Crime/Justice" story of 2015. Thanks, CNN.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:02
|
|
|
I am absolutely floored that people do not consider CNN part of the wingnut sphere yet.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:03
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:I am absolutely floored that people do not consider CNN part of the wingnut sphere yet. because they are too retarded even for them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:I guess what it comes down to is that the big superhero worlds all function as right-wing/libertarian fantasies about big strong men selflessly guarding the status quo from the villains who want to tear it down while the gummint (outside of those who have secretly allied with the villains) either backs them up, gets out of their way, or is left shaking its fist at those "menaces" who saved the day. And at the same time, are very often written by people further left than that makes it sound and who found that tying in some plots on social issues gets them "real literature" cred with certain critics. So comic books are always really awkward when you examine them for politics.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:11
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah, it's not like he was a meth cook or anything poo poo, in New Mexico? That's practically a public service 
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:15
|
|
|
Babylon Astronaut posted:That's almost verbatim Stan Lee's position. He has said that because superheros are inherently right wing, they need to consciously try to make the heroes progressive to keep it from devolving into a fascist power fantasy. Japanese manga takes on superheroes are p. hilarious in that regard because they've bypassed the fascist angle entirely. Tiger and Bunny has a setting where superheroes are pretty much just reality TV stars doing it all for the glory. My Hero Academia on the other hand has managed to reconcile superheroes with liberal democracy by first requiring rigorous government accreditation and then later incorporating the process of superheroics. It takes place in Japan so given the state of government bureaucracy there noone actually gave a poo poo about a Superhero Registration Act or whatever
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:29
|
|
|
Dr. Killjoy posted:Japanese manga takes on superheroes are p. hilarious in that regard because they've bypassed the fascist angle entirely. Tiger and Bunny has a setting where superheroes are pretty much just reality TV stars doing it all for the glory. My Hero Academia on the other hand has managed to reconcile superheroes with liberal democracy by first requiring rigorous government accreditation and then later incorporating the process of superheroics. It takes place in Japan so given the state of government bureaucracy there noone actually gave a poo poo about a Superhero Registration Act or whatever I hate to be That Goon™, but where does Goku fit on the scale, given his rather unique ability of converting about 80% of his enemies (Vegeta, Piccolo, Androids, Buu, etc.) into friends and allies, and otherwise being a normal husband and family man in "peacetime"?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
Mister Macys posted:I hate to be That Goon™, but where does Goku fit on the scale, given his rather unique ability of converting about 80% of his enemies (Vegeta, Piccolo, Androids, Buu, etc.) into friends and allies, and otherwise being a normal husband and family man in "peacetime"? Have you ever noticed that the only way to stop a bad guy with an energy attack is to have a good guy with a better energy attack? Goku gets to do whatever he pleases because he's either the most powerful thing in existence or is on his way there. Thankfully for the rest of existence he's fundamentally a nice guy that doesn't abuse his power and just wants to find things to fight. If you don't want to fight him he's just like "it's cool brah let's get some rice or something." edit: Aside from that, well, you have the issue that one specific race is impossibly powerful and everybody else sucks. If memory serves Sayians (or however the hell you spell that) were portrayed as totalitarian as hell. Vegeta is a domineering prick who is mean to everbody because he's royalty and he loving can, that's why. The main reason he became a good guy was because Goku kept beating the poo poo out of him and he ended up not having much of a choice. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:44
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Have you ever noticed that the only way to stop a bad guy with an energy attack is to have a good guy with a better energy attack? pretty much, he is pretty much a super nice superman equevlant. he only kicks the poo poo out of a person if he has too. kinda like super powered kazuma kiryu
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:47
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:pretty much, he is pretty much a super nice superman equevlant. he only kicks the poo poo out of a person if he has too. kinda like super powered kazuma kiryu Hell, he even gave Lord Frieza all the chances he could. Even after Freiza hilariously exploded Krillin out of spite and sent Goku into Super Saiyan mode.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:49
|
|
|
MariusLecter posted:Hell, he even gave Lord Frieza all the chances he could. Even after Freiza hilariously exploded Krillin out of spite and sent Goku into Super Saiyan mode. yeah. he was even willing to let frieza live after he got bisected.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
Goku's not really a superhero in the comic book sense, either. He doesn't proactively seek out malcontents to pound into submission; he's more a fantasy hero or Indiana Jones type where he goes on adventures and runs into people to hit, or they actively seek him out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:52
|
|
|
Yeah Goku is more of the martial arts hero archetype, who mostly focuses on his own development as a martial artist while strong opponents seek to challenge him, or as mentioned above runs into enemies while on adventures. Makes sense, as he derives from Sun Wukong, whose story is mostly about him following a guy on an adventure and beating up attackers that came his way.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 20:36 |
|
|
Tarezax posted:Yeah Goku is more of the martial arts hero archetype, who mostly focuses on his own development as a martial artist while strong opponents seek to challenge him, or as mentioned above runs into enemies while on adventures. Makes sense, as he derives from Sun Wukong, whose story is mostly about him following a guy on an adventure and beating up attackers that came his way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia pretty much this. also i am pretty sure goku has never really killed anyone. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:58
|
|