|
You also don't even notice it while watching, but Luke isn't even the main character of ANH until the 25 minute mark- up to that point it's C-3PO. This: PsychoInternetHawk posted:Luke has a way more flimsy introduction in 4, if you go back and watch it as though you had never heard of Star Wars before its kind of hilarious how fast he goes from being a bitchy little farm boy to hero of the galaxy. Isn't really right, though. ANH is a much, much slower-paced film than TFA. Luke isn't even properly the hero until they reach the Death Star; up to that point he's just the tagalong kid while Obi-Wan goes on his secret mission. Even while saving Leia, Han Solo is clearly taking the lead. And even during the final Death Star run, Luke is just one pilot among many, because even though he uses the Force to nail the shot, the Rebels don't know he can do that, and neither does he. It's not really accurate to call him the hero of the galaxy at the end of ANH, he just happens to have been the right guy in the right place on a number of occasions.
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 03:23 |
|
|
Squinty posted:In the trash scene Luke is completely helpless and has to be rescued by his friends. Is Rey ever helpless in TFA? Yes. She is defeated and captured by Kylo Ren. Even when she escapes on her own it is her friends coming to get her which allows her to escape the planet. Finn also protects her after Kylo Ren knocks her out. Claiming Rey never needed help from her friends devalues Finn's bravery in taking up the saber. Squinty posted:It IS offputting to me that Rey blows through all the same basic character beats all in one film. No she doesn't. This is what you refuse to acknowledge. It's especially loving ridiculous to claim that she earned the power to beat him when the film goes out of its way to show that Rey was injured and vulnerable thanks to the actions of other people. Rey didn't just pull a lightsaber out and beat an unwounded unstoppable foe because she tried really hard. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:21
|
|
|
DStecks posted:It's not really accurate to call him the hero of the galaxy at the end of ANH, he just happens to have been the right guy in the right place on a number of occasions. Not really. If that were the case the scenes in which Obi-Wan tells Luke that he has the Force and is a Jedi Knight would not make sense. Luke is set up as "the hero of the Galaxy" as soon as he is handed a lightsaber. Even as a "tag along kid" his mentor is hinting that he has extraordinary powers beyond the abilities of nearly every other character.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
There seems to be a lot of chatter going on about how Rey is, basically, too strong for being a kid who just got introduced to all these powers. But the thing that people are missing is, this entire movie is amped up more in terms of powers than the original, because that's how fantasy movies are now. Everyone can do increasingly crazy stuff with less build up. TFA is actually pretty tame in that regard. Rey doesn't immediately do the same stuff Kylo Ren can do, like stop blaster bullets, and doesn't do 200 foot backflips or anythng, the main point seems to be that she has too much success in terms of overcoming her obstacles, which is missing the point that this movie isn't about putting up a tiny little rebellion against a huge empire, but about relatively equal forces facing up against one another. Sometimes one wins with their tricks, like the Starkiller thing (which yeah, on 2nd viewing today, that was ridiculous. it just blows up 5 planets huh?), sometimes the other wins with SHEER GOODNESS - but I think the point is we're going to see both sides of the conflict develop. Kylo Ren ends this episode on his back after having accomplished a lot of evil poo poo and killing his father to cement his commitment to being evil, so there are plenty of places for him to go next. Rey ends this won having beaten Kylo Ren in a sword fight and thinking she's probably got what it takes to be a Jedi. It's a good place to start a second movie I think. I'd also say - Luke isn't really a very interesting character. I don't know why people keep comparing Rey to Luke as if Luke is exactly how you write a protagonist, cos he's just some bland good guy and a bit of a goober. Luke only begins to get kind of interesting when he finds out Vader is his dad. Rey is better acted and written than Luke was in ANH, I think. Way more sympathetic, even if she is pretty much good at everything she does - but what's so bad about that? She's set up as a nobody at the beginning and the whole movie is about showing how this girl is actually potentially a super big hero, so of course it focuses on all her strong points like +good morals +strong skills +has magic, y'know? Rey is just a bit more accelerated than Luke was, but heck, Kylo Ren also displays powers in this one we never saw Vader doing. And uh, maybe Rey is supposed to be the best Jedi ever, is that so wrong? Y'know what, this whole conversation is just DBZ power level debates. It's about how interesting the characters are anyway and all the new characters are good. real_slime fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Dec 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
DStecks posted:It's not really accurate to call him the hero of the galaxy at the end of ANH, he just happens to have been the right guy in the right place on a number of occasions. That's ...sort of my point? Holding up the OT as the superior example of a heros development compared to TFA is dumb because Luke just happens to have everything revolve around him or go his way. Granted this is largely because Lucas is a lovely writer, but my point still stands that TFA generally handles this way better.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:29
|
|
|
Darth Insanius
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:31
|
|
|
My sith name is Darth Taxes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:36
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:My sith name is Darth Taxes. Darth Texas
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:40
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Darth Texas Together, we fight crime.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:42
|
|
|
Augus posted:People who call Rey a Mary Sue either don't understand the term or are just nettled that a woman is playing a competent protagonist in a big-budget blockbuster. This is the truth, and it's pretty galling to me although not surprising to see people in this thread go "NO IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HER GENDER HOW COULD YOU THINK THAT". It's like they've paid zero attention to how nerds on the internet have acted the last ten+ years. Sexism can happen either in blatant forms, or when pushed underground due to changes in social acceptability, through more insidious means. When it's no longer acceptable to be upset about a woman being the lead/one of the leads of an action or sci-fi film, dogwhistles are used instead, with "Mary Sue" being a particularly vicious and stupid one. It's parallel to how racist ideas are now communicated in code in politics, but then the dumbasses who are like "no this isn't sexist" would probably say "no that isn't racist", too. Also, as has been repeatedly pointed out, "Mary Sue" is a loving fanfiction term that has no business being applied to a character in a mega-blockbuster film. It refers to a character that is an author self-insert created for the author to vicariously live through, one with an absurd amount of special traits and abilities. There are poorly written characters in popular fiction that bear resemblances to that description, but it would be inappropriate to describe such a character as a "Mary Sue" unless there is some sense that the author is using the character as an outlet for their self-aggrandizing personal fantasies. It would be further inappropriate because Rey is not a "Mary Sue" even in the loosest sense. It's an example of unfortunate language drift akin to how "SJW" apparently refers to anyone that gives any credence to feminist ideas, rather than just a narrow reference to Tumblrite tendencies to try to make "otherkin" and "transracial" protected categories and turn molehills into mountains of controversy. And in the same way as SJW is used to discredit feminists, Mary Sue is used as an anti-feminist critique in discussions of film, TV, and literature. If you use it for anything other than mocking dumb fanfiction, you're buying into an anti-feminist critical perspective. Not because the concept is inherently anti-feminist, but because if a critique is primarily used by horrible people for awful ends, it becomes irrevocably tainted.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 21:52
|
|
|
The hosed-up thing is that the "Mary Sue" concept, of having an audience identification character primarily there so they can vicariously experience things, is basically extremely common in genre fiction, and the muted version of it, allowing the audience to experience things vicariously, is endemic to fiction as a whole.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:06
|
|
|
Also dumbasses like that are so excited to literally move the earth to have people not accept a female character being as awesome as Rey is that they ignore the obvious, that she was already a badass before she realized the force was a thing and that she could use it. She's a good fighter and an ace with mechanical stuff because if she comes from a dump where if she wasn't she wouldn't be alive.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:07
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Throw out Joseph Campbell. The OT deviates from him plenty. "The ultimate adventure, when all the barriers and ogres have been overcome, is commonly represented as a mystical marriage of the triumphant hero-soul with the Queen Goddess of the World. This is the crisis at the nadir, the zenith, or at the uttermost edge of the earth, at the central point of the cosmos, in the tabernacle of the temple, or within the darkness of the deepest chamber of the heart. The meeting with the goddess (who is incarnate in every woman) is the final test of the talent of the hero to win the boon of love (charity: amor fati), which is life itself enjoyed as the encasement of eternity. And when the adventurer, in this context, is not a youth but a maid, she is the one who, by her qualities, her beauty, or her yearning, is fit to become the consort of an immortal. Then the heavenly husband descends to her and conducts her to his bed—whether she will or not. And if she has shunned him, the scales fall from her eyes; if she has sought him, her desire finds its peace." (Joseph Campbell) If we refer back to Campbell, Rey is "perfect" because she is an avatar of the Goddess, which a male protagonist cannot be. (Just as Robert Graves' male poet must have the White Goddess as his muse, while the female poet must incarnate the White Goddess herself.) She is an incarnate Dakini, a Skywalker in the original Tibetan sense. It's like making the Grail Maiden the protagonist instead of the Knights of the Round Table. Luke can only repeat Padme's original suicide as he hangs as the Hanged Man from Cloud City.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:08
|
|
|
I didn't really pick up on it until someone pointed it out to me, but once it was mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it: After Han's death, Leia PASSES CHEWBACCA, goes up to REY (who she hadn't even met before) and gives her a hug to console her. PAST CHEWBACCA. It's kind of baffling, and kind of ruins the moment. Thoughts?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:11
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:Also dumbasses like that are so excited to literally move the earth to have people not accept a female character being as awesome as Rey is that they ignore the obvious, that she was already a badass before she realized the force was a thing and that she could use it. She's a good fighter and an ace with mechanical stuff because if she comes from a dump where if she wasn't she wouldn't be alive. She's not allowed to already be a skilled fighter even though she would logically be skilled from watching her own back for a decade or so. That's too feminist and threatening to my ability to maintain an erection.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:13
|
|
|
Leia is a giant space racist who once referred to Chewie as a "walking carpet".
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:13
|
|
|
somnambulist posted:I didn't really pick up on it until someone pointed it out to me, but once it was mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it: Chewie is heading off to mourn on his own for a bit; you see him sad and alone in one of the next shots.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:14
|
|
|
somnambulist posted:I didn't really pick up on it until someone pointed it out to me, but once it was mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it: This was also the first time that Leia meets Rey. She probably knows a bit more about Rey [force poo poo]. This makes sense if Leia is actually Rey's aunt or something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:15
|
|
|
somnambulist posted:I didn't really pick up on it until someone pointed it out to me, but once it was mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it: Chewy smells like garbage.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:18
|
|
Mermaid Autopsy posted:"The ultimate adventure, when all the barriers and ogres have been overcome, is commonly represented as a mystical marriage of the triumphant hero-soul with the Queen Goddess of the World. This is the crisis at the nadir, the zenith, or at the uttermost edge of the earth, at the central point of the cosmos, in the tabernacle of the temple, or within the darkness of the deepest chamber of the heart. The meeting with the goddess (who is incarnate in every woman) is the final test of the talent of the hero to win the boon of love (charity: amor fati), which is life itself enjoyed as the encasement of eternity. And when the adventurer, in this context, is not a youth but a maid, she is the one who, by her qualities, her beauty, or her yearning, is fit to become the consort of an immortal. Then the heavenly husband descends to her and conducts her to his bed—whether she will or not. And if she has shunned him, the scales fall from her eyes; if she has sought him, her desire finds its peace." (Joseph Campbell) If they do the "celestial marriage" poo poo I'm throwing popcorn at the loving screen.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:19
|
|
|
jivjov posted:Chewie is heading off to mourn on his own for a bit; you see him sad and alone in one of the next shots. Ehhhh. I mean sure, he's entitled to mourn by himself but for Leia to not hug chewbacca was just super awkward to me looking back. Chewbacca was his shadow, Rey had no business being in that shot (unless the theory Leia knows more about Rey than we know about becomes true, which would make a bit more sense, but still....it was CHEWBACCA!)
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:19
|
|
somnambulist posted:Ehhhh. I mean sure, he's entitled to mourn by himself but for Leia to not hug chewbacca was just super awkward to me looking back. Chewbacca was his shadow, Rey had no business being in that shot (unless the theory Leia knows more about Rey than we know about becomes true, which would make a bit more sense, but still....it was CHEWBACCA!) Rey's just had her surrogate father murdered, her best friend maimed and comatose, and her soul imperiled twice. Leia also knows about this, through the Force.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:21
|
|
|
Squinty posted:I think ANH was about one protagonist, had a villain with no backstory or motivation given at all, and Obi-Wan existed and died solely to motivate Luke and had no real character arc of his own. Right because the prequels did not exist at the time. Neither did the rest of the trilogy. In order for Han's death to be only about Rey, JJ would need to magically delete the other movies. Also the villain absolutely had backstory, he had exposition about his past all over the movie, this point is just too dumb to engage with.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:21
|
|
|
Chewbacca is to Leia what a droid is to any of the non-force users in the franchise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:23
|
|
|
Chewbacca is Jar Jar Binks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:28
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The hosed-up thing is that the "Mary Sue" concept, of having an audience identification character primarily there so they can vicariously experience things, is basically extremely common in genre fiction, and the muted version of it, allowing the audience to experience things vicariously, is endemic to fiction as a whole. But that's not the "Mary Sue" concept. "Mary Sue" isn't about the audience vicariously experiencing anything; it isn't about the audience at all. That's why it's an awful writing trope. Instead, it's about the gratification and vicarious living of the author. As soon as it's applied outside that, it loses all actual meaning and just becomes a dogwhistle. Escapism is an important part of fiction, especially genre fiction like Star Wars, and in escapist fiction, an audience stand-in character is a good thing. To refer to that as a "Mary Sue" is pointless, at best.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:29
|
|
eth0.n posted:But that's not the "Mary Sue" concept. The term originates from Star Trek fanfiction, where it was used to describe a character type who was a young woman who would join the crew of the Enterprise, be extremely capable, and gently caress one of the male leads. Now, these stories emerged because not only the author, but a substantial segment of the audience, found that appealing to read about, even as other people found it tedious and a little vicariously embarrassing. This because it was seen as impinging on the canonical story or whatever, because fanfiction is understood to be in an inherently subordinate position with respect to the work it is derived from. So in that sense, it's not an "awful writing trope" at all (and, indeed, there are plenty of accepted fanfictional works that are blatantly of this kind) but one that's inappropriate for the rules of fanfiction.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:33
|
|
|
And with that the Star Wars: The Thread Awakens (VII?) thread agreed that Rey was not a Mary Sue and moved on to the more pressing issue: How is John Boyega's skin so loving smooth?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
Leia is definitely not a fan of wookies. In addition to the walking carpet line, she doesn't give him a medal, uses their race as a target of derision to reject Han and it all kinda makes sense given that she grew up as a Princess and all. Given that, I'm pretty sure Chewie doesn't want a hug from her, either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
Wookie Bouquet posted:And with that the Star Wars: The Thread Awakens (VII?) thread agreed that Rey was not a Mary Sue and moved on to the more pressing issue: He is made of magic, I thought that was well documented. Filthy Casual posted:Given that, I'm pretty sure Chewie doesn't want a hug from her, either. He literally rushes over to hug her the first time he sees her in the movie. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
Chewie had to go break the news to his girlfriend.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
somnambulist posted:I didn't really pick up on it until someone pointed it out to me, but once it was mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it: Leia is the kind of person who gives succor to grieving young heroes, I guess. Consider A New Hope - she just got out of torture jail where she watched her entire planet get blown up, and now they're coming to destroy everything she worked for, and the bad guys tried really hard to make it seem like her fault. But she still takes the time to drape a coat over Luke and comfort him for the death of a dude he met two days ago. An interesting character trait. Can't stand to see anyone mourning a mentor, maybe.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:He literally rushes over to hug her the first time he sees her in the movie. Isn't Han alive then? I went into the movie thinking Leia and Chewie don't like each other, and that was some of his (now) patented sass, but I'm not seriously trying to argue my headcanon since she seemed pretty cool with hugging him. I just like the idea of Chewie being Tommy Boy to Leia's Rob Lowe and being all "REBELS GOTTA HUUUG!" and Leia going *sigh* "Fine...fine..."
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
This forum is so refreshing after spending the last 20 minutes reading the IMDB message boards for this movie. They loving hate it. Which is totally fine but they just regurgitate the same tired points over and over again.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 23:17
|
|
|
Yaws posted:This forum is so refreshing after spending the last 20 minutes reading the IMDB message boards for this movie. They loving hate it. Which is totally fine but they just regurgitate the same tired points over and over again. I've never known IMDB to like something good. Every now and then I dip into the boards of a movie or a TV show that I'm interested in or enjoy and every time I regret it. Scumhole.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 23:22
|
|
|
Yaws posted:This forum is so refreshing after spending the last 20 minutes reading the IMDB message boards for this movie. They loving hate it. Which is totally fine but they just regurgitate the same tired points over and over again. I hate to break it to you, but....
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 23:29
|
|
|
I like how indestructible they made the Millennium Falcon appear. No really, I liked how durable it was. It crashes into things, scrapes the ground, etc. There were also menu shots of Rey operating controls that looked like she was actually flying a spaceship- it had a flight yoke and throttle; we never really got to see Han actually controlling it aside from activating the hyperdrive, it used to just be rather static shots looking into the cockpit from the front. Fin picking up the Jedi Training Ball was also a nice touch.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2015 23:48
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Fin picking up the Jedi Training Ball was also a nice touch. Jedi Training Ball? Do you mean the training remote? Nothing "Jedi" about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 00:06
|
|
jivjov posted:Jedi Training Ball? Do you mean the training remote? Nothing "Jedi" about it. It's canonically the "Jedi Training Ball", manufactured by Uradorc Industries.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 00:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 03:23 |
|
|
Panfilo posted:I like how indestructible they made the Millennium Falcon appear. No really, I liked how durable it was. It crashes into things, scrapes the ground, etc. There were also menu shots of Rey operating controls that looked like she was actually flying a spaceship- it had a flight yoke and throttle; we never really got to see Han actually controlling it aside from activating the hyperdrive, it used to just be rather static shots looking into the cockpit from the front. I loved that the first time the incredibly iconic, universally beloved ship is fired up on screen for the first time in over thirty years it immediately scrapes the ground, plows into the sand, and smashes a metal gate after being called garbage. I could hear people reacting to it in the theater like their car was being scratched which was great. I was dreading it being treated as the *~MILLENNIUM FALCON~* from frame one, and even though Rey is excited once she finds out what it is, she's already had to repair a potentially deadly problem, and it needed more tweaking after the Rathtar scene. It made it feel more, I dunno, grounded I guess? The hologram board activating was a touch too much fan service IMO, but that's a nitpick.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 00:28
|
|