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Look, you don't understand. These... large kids, they're different. They grow up faster than the good kids we know.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:33
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Out of curiosity, have there been any recent cop killings that have gone to a grand jury and actually resulted in an indictment? As someone who doesn't follow this stuff as closely as I probably should, I only hear about the failed indictments over and over. Curious if it ever loving goes the other way.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:34
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Dum Cumpster posted:Today they're saying he weighed 175 which seems more reasonable if that picture isn't old. That makes more sense but I wouldn't be surprised if that number kept dropping. Thats a really shady mistake for a coroner to make.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:34
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MattD1zzl3 posted:Like 80% of these national outrage cases this one is a lot more reasonable when you arent getting emotional and imagining an ideal scenario where they, a supercop forums user would have made the right call, no problem. I'm sure your fellow Clevelander's will be ready to poo poo on your celebrations.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:36
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Cole posted:Saying he looked older is not wrong. wow turns out it's wrong both morally and materially
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Dec 28, 2015 21:36
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So I am a little confused about the role of a grand jury. I know that they're basically there to determine if there's enough evidence to go to a trial, and in some states (but not Ohio, right?) cops get special privileges in a grand jury? Is the issue with the Rice one that it was a grand jury at all? that the information presented was BS for some reason? or something else?
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Dec 28, 2015 21:37
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The Kingfish posted:That makes more sense but I wouldn't be surprised if that number kept dropping. Thats a really shady mistake for a coroner to make. Yeah, he looks like he's 155-165 in that picture if he's 5'7" That or he's got a corset on under his shirt.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:37
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The role of the grand jury is to provide plausible deniability to the DA.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:38
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CommieGIR posted:No, you're just here saying that their statement about his age was justified, while conveniently forgetting that they used this justification in a Grand Jury to legitimize shooting him. Actually I see what Cole is saying here. Disconnect for a moment, that the prosecutor is trying to make that claim to make the lack of prosecution easier for society at large to swallow. Objectively speaking, yes, Rice looks like he could be older than 12. That's not an excuse, it's not a justification, it's a judgment made on his physical appearance. Cole has already said this was a bad shoot. What's he's saying is, of all the bullshit smoke that is being blown in defense of the officer, this one here is the most credible. Not that it is justified, not that it explains anything, just that objectively out of everything presented, this was the most accurate. Which doesn't say much for the accuracy of the prosecution, but there you go. Cole makes the valid point that the focus of outrage shouldn't be arguing over his size. It's stupid and subjective. Instead focus on the parts that are objectively, universally, terrible. Like the officer's immediate decision to shoot without giving opportunity to comply, the fact that it's an open carry state, the way they treated the sister, the fact that their report is a complete contradiction to the video, that the prosecutor waited a full year plus to bury this case, or the procedural games he played to intentionally sink the case against the officer. Focus on all THAT poo poo, not that the shitbag DA made a bullshit defense that is based on a subjective call.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:39
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DA: The officer did nothing wrong. Grand Jury: Okay. End.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:39
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Elendil004 posted:So I am a little confused about the role of a grand jury. I know that they're basically there to determine if there's enough evidence to go to a trial, and in some states (but not Ohio, right?) cops get special privileges in a grand jury? A lot of states require them for any felony indictment (i think Ohio is one of them) and it gives the DA reasonable cover when they don't want to prosecute a cop.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:40
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Elendil004 posted:So I am a little confused about the role of a grand jury. I know that they're basically there to determine if there's enough evidence to go to a trial, and in some states (but not Ohio, right?) cops get special privileges in a grand jury? In a normal Grand Jury the goal of DA or ADA or whoever is serving as the agent of the state is to secure indictments. This is an insanely easy process because in your average GJ, the narrative is completely controlled by the prosecution. There is no defense generally, and the burden of proof for GJ isn't "do you think this happened?" like on a regular jury trial but rather "Is it possible this happened in the way we outlined it." There's a reason "a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich" is a saying. The reason people are upset is because this is a case where the state was clearly advocating FOR the cop on the proceedings, which is the exact opposite of their nornal role. Instead of taking the stance of "do you think it's possible this was a bad shoot" which is what a normal GJ would convene to decide, they clearly shifted it to "do you think it's possible this was a good shoot."
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Dec 28, 2015 21:44
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Raerlynn posted:Actually I see what Cole is saying here. No, because the statement on his age still hinges upon some stupid loving law mythos that somehow being an older black guy means you become an unstoppable rhino and therefore lethal force is authorized. And that fact that somehow his looking older justified their response method seeing as they felt the need to bring it up in the grand jury.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:44
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Elendil004 posted:So I am a little confused about the role of a grand jury. I know that they're basically there to determine if there's enough evidence to go to a trial, and in some states (but not Ohio, right?) cops get special privileges in a grand jury? The issue is that the DA has been signaling that he wouldn't bring charges for months, and that the community has to pretty much force the DA to put it through this farce at all. The DA seems completely and utterly unwilling to pursue the case in good faith in what was probably the best example of jumpy police shootings against a minority that you're likely to see.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:44
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Cole posted:What about his weight? And as others have said, why does it matter? Or does it only "not matter" when I say something about it? His weight puts him as overweight but not obese for his height and age. 80th percentile according to the WHO. It shouldn't matter but the DA presented it to the Grand Jury and then to the public, so it does matter in that it should not have been a factor in their deliberations at all, and even then it is complete bullshit to begin with. "This 12 and a half year old looked much older with his size 36 pants. Like a god damned 15 year old, I tell you. It was all I could do not to pull my own gun, after a reasonable 2 seconds, on the autopsy images I presented to the Grand Jury." It's being brought up because it is absurd and insulting.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:44
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Raerlynn posted:Focus on all THAT poo poo, not that the shitbag DA made a bullshit defense that is based on a subjective call.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:47
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There is no way that kid was near 200 lbs. I'm 6'5 and 230 lbs, and seeing that picture there is no way I only have 35 lbs on him.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:47
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CommieGIR posted:No, because the statement on his age still hinges upon some stupid loving law mythos that somehow being an older black guy means you become an unstoppable rhino and therefore lethal force is authorized. Not a single word of which Cole has written. We all know it's bullshit. I know it, Cole knows it, you know it. We've all said it is not a justification for the shooting. The problem is, it's still a subjective thing, and there's going to be people out there who cling to that. So instead of wasting time and outrage arguing something we all know and acknowledge as bullshit but will be held up as a reason to justify the shoot, argue something that is 100% indefensible, like pretty much anything else about this case.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:51
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Raerlynn posted:Not a single word of which Cole has written. We all know it's bullshit. I know it, Cole knows it, you know it. We've all said it is not a justification for the shooting. The problem is, it's still a subjective thing, and there's going to be people out there who cling to that. So instead of wasting time and outrage arguing something we all know and acknowledge as bullshit but will be held up as a reason to justify the shoot, argue something that is 100% indefensible, like pretty much anything else about this case. This. Someone needs to step up and be the bigger person here because you people are arguing in circles despite agreeing on almost anything. Some of you seem to be in a competition over who can feel the most outraged or something. Cole repeatedly said he thinks the shooting was totally unjustified and that his size and weight don't give the cops an excuse. Stop arguing over the most minute of details. Missing the forest for the trees and all that. A 12 year old was shot dead because of a lovely cop and the cop is getting away with it thanks to multiple layers of protection.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:55
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adults with brains should be able to talk about the way that subjective perception of weight / age etc. plays into systemic racism. this is a pattern, it happens over and over again, and it's very much worth talking about.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:55
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Elendil004 posted:So I am a little confused about the role of a grand jury. I know that they're basically there to determine if there's enough evidence to go to a trial, and in some states (but not Ohio, right?) cops get special privileges in a grand jury? The issue is that the legal standard for charging an officer with a crime while they're carrying out their duties is whether their actions are reasonable given what they knew at the time the alleged crime occurred. The dispatcher was told that there was a black male at the park repeated pulling out a gun and pointing it at people, but that he was probably a juvenile and it was probably fake. The information dispatched to the officers was "black male at the park repeatedly pulling a gun from his waistband and pointing it at people." The Grand Jury decided that given that information, the officers were justified in shooting the kid when he reached for his waistband because they were responding to what was relayed to them as a borderline active shooter. The age and size and all that stuff doesn't really enter into it because it has nothing to do with the legal standard that the prosecution has to meet to justify charges. The prosecutor is flapping his gums about it because he needs to find some way to justify the Grand Jury not issuing an indictment to the media and the public, otherwise the city is going to explode. And he's doing a very, very bad job of it, because giving a straight clinical legal explanation of why the charges weren't warranted isn't going to help either. This case is ridiculously similar to that Walmart "assault rifle" shooting in Beavercreek in that the responding officers were given either bad or outright false information that they acted on as if it were true, without stopping to evaluate the situation, and ended up killing someone because of it. There are some major structural and training changes that need to be made to policing in America so that officers are not so drat jumpy. I've been out for 10 years and it has given me an interesting perspective on things, and the us vs them attitude that a lot of people that I used to call my friends had back then and still have now is frightening. There's a huge amount of "everyone you come into contact with has the potential to kill you so you need to be on your guard 24/7" training that gets drilled into your head, with accompanying video like the Dinkheller shooting (warning: audio of officer begging for his life after getting shot by suspect) and Surviving Edged Weapons (warning: nasty knife wounds), and it just puts you in a really bad mindset.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:59
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The_Rob posted:There is no way that kid was near 200 lbs. I'm 6'5 and 230 lbs, and seeing that picture there is no way I only have 35 lbs on him. People can look incredibly different at the same exact height / weight, and the whole focus on size is stupid anyway. ToastyPotato posted:This. Someone needs to step up and be the bigger person here because you people are arguing in circles despite agreeing on almost anything. Some of you seem to be in a competition over who can feel the most outraged or something. Cole repeatedly said he thinks the shooting was totally unjustified and that his size and weight don't give the cops an excuse. Stop arguing over the most minute of details. Missing the forest for the trees and all that. A 12 year old was shot dead because of a lovely cop and the cop is getting away with it thanks to multiple layers of protection. Out-outraging everyone else is like 99% of this thread unfortunately.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:01
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CommanderApaul posted:The issue is that the legal standard for charging an officer with a crime while they're carrying out their duties is whether their actions are reasonable given what they knew at the time the alleged crime occurred. The dispatcher was told that there was a black male at the park repeated pulling out a gun and pointing it at people, but that he was probably a juvenile and it was probably fake. The information dispatched to the officers was "black male at the park repeatedly pulling a gun from his waistband and pointing it at people." The Grand Jury decided that given that information, the officers were justified in shooting the kid when he reached for his waistband because they were responding to what was relayed to them as a borderline active shooter. The age and size and all that stuff doesn't really enter into it because it has nothing to do with the legal standard that the prosecution has to meet to justify charges. The prosecutor is flapping his gums about it because he needs to find some way to justify the Grand Jury not issuing an indictment to the media and the public, otherwise the city is going to explode. And he's doing a very, very bad job of it, because giving a straight clinical legal explanation of why the charges weren't warranted isn't going to help either. Also every US VIGILANT CITIZEN has been trained by 24, and other tv shows, so everybody wants to give 911 operators tactical-PSYOPS-INTEL before the cops arrive, and as you said it just causes them to misread the situation, and kill innocent people.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:01
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 Also, Is Junk Science Helping Cops Get Away With Unjustified Shootings?
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Dec 28, 2015 22:01
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Zas posted:adults with brains should be able to talk about the way that subjective perception of weight / age etc. plays into systemic racism. this is a pattern, it happens over and over again, and it's very much worth talking about. Then tell me, where do you imagine that conversation goes? Everyone here has said it's bullshit. We're also saying that it's a minor detail not worth getting bogged down in when you have a loving mountain of other reasons that are much harder to defend. I mean if you want to go ahead and tilt at that windmill, go for it. Your not anywhere near where the dragon is standing though.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:05
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Raerlynn posted:Then tell me, where do you imagine that conversation goes? Everyone here has said it's bullshit. We're also saying that it's a minor detail not worth getting bogged down in when you have a loving mountain of other reasons that are much harder to defend. Who's we besides you and Cole? You insist it is just 'bullshit' when the GJ made their decision based on it. Get a clue as to what people are getting 'bogged' down in.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:05
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CommanderApaul posted:Surviving Edged Weapons (warning: nasty knife wounds) Wait, people take that seriously?
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Dec 28, 2015 22:08
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Raerlynn posted:Then tell me, where do you imagine that conversation goes? Everyone here has said it's bullshit. We're also saying that it's a minor detail not worth getting bogged down in when you have a loving mountain of other reasons that are much harder to defend. it's great we can all agree that this is an open and shut BS case, so talking about the most egregious and obvious aspects of it isn't going to be very interesting. there are a lot of ways the conversation can go, assuming we are allowed to have it. the fact that it's a more nuanced part of the case means it's more worth talking about. so why did the prosecutor feel the need to bring up how big and scary the 12 year old looked? why is this a common tactic when used against black victims? it's almost like appearance and race have something in common.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:11
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A grand jury acquitting a cop?  This is like what, the second or third time this has ever happened?
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Dec 28, 2015 22:18
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I think there's a lot more meat to the fact that "it's probably a fake gun" was left out of the communications from dispatch to responding officers. That plays a lot more into how the shoot played out than the kid being big or old does. Have there ever been cases where a dispatcher lied (either knowingly or unknowingly) and presented bad information which was used as the primary reason that a cop who was technically guilty got off?
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Dec 28, 2015 22:19
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CommanderApaul posted:The issue is that the legal standard for charging an officer with a crime while they're carrying out their duties is whether their actions are reasonable given what they knew at the time the alleged crime occurred. The dispatcher was told that there was a black male at the park repeated pulling out a gun and pointing it at people, but that he was probably a juvenile and it was probably fake. The information dispatched to the officers was "black male at the park repeatedly pulling a gun from his waistband and pointing it at people." The Grand Jury decided that given that information, the officers were justified in shooting the kid when he reached for his waistband because they were responding to what was relayed to them as a borderline active shooter. The age and size and all that stuff doesn't really enter into it because it has nothing to do with the legal standard that the prosecution has to meet to justify charges. The prosecutor is flapping his gums about it because he needs to find some way to justify the Grand Jury not issuing an indictment to the media and the public, otherwise the city is going to explode. And he's doing a very, very bad job of it, because giving a straight clinical legal explanation of why the charges weren't warranted isn't going to help either. This really raises the question of what kind of recourse citizens have against police who are "doing their jobs." The authorities in this and other cases are doing a piss-poor job of making anyone see that kind of recourse. Instead, they're treating these incidents as isolated tragedies. If cops in a case like this aren't even indicted, then it strongly implies that the system is sanctioning their actions. When they kill people in a wide variety of incidents across the country and then hide behind their own rights to avoid legal repercussions, you're going to get members of the targeted community wondering what incentive those police have not to kill them. And wondering how to not be summarily executed with no punishment for their executioner.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:21
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Dum Cumpster posted:Wait, people take that seriously? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVkqg2hsUU
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Dec 28, 2015 22:22
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Lyesh posted:This really raises the question of what kind of recourse citizens have against police who are "doing their jobs." The authorities in this and other cases are doing a piss-poor job of making anyone see that kind of recourse. Instead, they're treating these incidents as isolated tragedies. Tamir Rice should have filed a sworn statement about his unsubstantiated allegation of police abuse if he wanted an investigation. 
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Dec 28, 2015 22:23
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Dum Cumpster posted:Wait, people take that seriously? I have seen that video, or select parts of it, from a Calibre Press VHS tape, as part of both my academy defensive tactics training and as inservice trainings on self defense and taser usage, as well as in my taser instructor certification class.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:26
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CommanderApaul posted:I have seen that video, or select parts of it, from a Calibre Press VHS tape, as part of both my academy defensive tactics training and as inservice trainings on self defense and taser usage, as well as in my taser instructor certification class.  I thought that thing was a joke. Or at least was treated as one.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:29
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The fish hooks in my pockets are for my recreational use and none of your business, pig.
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Dec 28, 2015 22:30
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Lyesh posted:This really raises the question of what kind of recourse citizens have against police who are "doing their jobs."
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Dec 28, 2015 22:30
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12 old shot, shooter found to be justified. America celebrates Regarding the bail system: does a person get the bail money back after the process is over? George Rouncewell fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 28, 2015 |
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Dec 28, 2015 22:49
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Illegal Username posted:Regarding the bail system: does a person get the bail money back after the process is over?
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Dec 28, 2015 23:02
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| # ? May 30, 2024 05:32 |
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yeah, everything I've heard about police training in the US emphasis the danger involved and how trying to be a "good cop" is putting your life in danger. to be fair, the US per capita death rate for police on the job appears higher than other western nations, something like, oh I don't recall, two or four times higher. and the number of people dead by police guns is something like, uh, several hundred times? so maybe it's not a very good thing, in the end.
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Dec 28, 2015 23:07
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