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VitalSigns posted:Note that some rando civilian caller made the correct threat assessment that somehow escaped the two people whose job it is to assess threats. Cops are also civilians. I agree with the rest of your post.
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Dec 29, 2015 15:47
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pacmania90 posted:Cops are also civilians. I agree with the rest of your post. Okay "rando untrained layperson" then
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Dec 29, 2015 15:50
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VitalSigns posted:Note that some rando civilian caller made the correct threat assessment that somehow escaped the two people whose job it is to assess threats. Yeah the argument that the twelve year old child is supposed to know what will get him shot by police who as theoretically trained adults are not required to do even the minimal effort to understand a situation before they start killing is so over the top it's offensive. It's especially stupid when you factor in all the cases where white people are using actual real guns in threatening ways and somehow don't end up dead but for some reason in this case Tamir's death was inevitable and his own fault. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 15:53
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Raerlynn posted:It's pretty hosed up that you simultaneously drat Tamir for "creating the situation" yet completely hold blameless the two cops who charged right up on him, blew him away with the scarcest of warnings, and then lied to cover it up. Everything about this situation can be directly attached to the two officers who chose to escalate a harmless toy into a shootout with the barest of warnings, but according to you somehow it's the loving child that should have known better than the trained adults . lfield posted:It isn't handwaving, it is explaining. You just want to judge a 12-year-old as an adult. I'm not the one who mentioned adults first, someone else claimed that because adults sometimes ignore risks we can't expect better from a 12 year old. I am the the who noted that Tamir's peers were aware of the risk, so I think I'm the one holding him to the standard of a minor rather than adults. VitalSigns posted:No they don't, these are terribles place to start from a systems safety perspective. The way you reduce injuries and deaths from preventable mistakes and accidents is by fixing the problems of training and accountability of the professional adults with the career in public safety and authorization to use deadly force as part of their jobs, not by hoping that untrained children will never do something irresponsible.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:03
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Waco Panty Raid posted:How much training does it take for a 12 year to figure out the things I cited are bad ideas? His friends seemed to have figured it out. We don't have control the random upbringing of every little boy in America to anything like the extent that we control the training, procedures, and accountability of professional law enforcement officers. If your goal is to reduce deaths, that is the place to start. If you have some other goal then perhaps it makes sense shrug and say "well maybe the next little boy will be smarter".
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Dec 29, 2015 16:07
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Tamir certainly did react, even the expert his family hired to analyze the video argued Tamir was reacting to the police showing up (they just claimedhe was eaising his hands while they were still in his jacket pockets). Misconstruing what happened to fit your preferred narrative doesn't seem like a good way to "explain" things. What the hell are you talking about? He got shot before the car even stopped moving. What could he have possibly done different in that split second to ensure he didn't get shot?
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Dec 29, 2015 16:13
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VitalSigns posted:We don't have control the random upbringing of every little boy in America to anything like the extent that we control the training, procedures, and accountability of professional law enforcement officers.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:14
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lfield posted:What the hell are you talking about? He got shot before the car even stopped moving. lfield posted:What could he have possibly done different in that split second to ensure he didn't get shot?
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Dec 29, 2015 16:18
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Do we need that level of control to expect a 12 year old to understand Tamir's actions were reckless? Yes. A 12-year-old should not expect to be shot for playing with a toy gun in the park. Waco Panty Raid posted:Pretty much anything other than reaching towards the realistic looking toy gun in his waistband would have been better. Such as what? What would you have done?
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Dec 29, 2015 16:22
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Waco Panty Raid posted:What are you talking about? He was clearly reacting before the car stopped. At the end of the day, thank god somebody is doing the Lord's work of explaining why twelve year olds with legal toys are shot by cops who go on to lie about their Perfectly Justified Shoot on their reports. On the real though, I'm pleading with the other reasonable posters to just block WPR. Why argue with monsters? Why lower ourselves to this? He thinks a twelve year old got himself shot, and refuses to acknowledge the lies on the reports that were filed on this totally legit shooting. Let's exercise some collective decency folks, and use the tools we have available. Shun this fucker. He had no power over us if we cannot see his lies, misrepresentations and barely-concealed contempt for black lives. Be better than that. You won't change his mind, and the only thing we can hope for is that getting no responses, he goes away. Do the right thing. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 29, 2015 16:24
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ClancyEverafter posted:On the real though, I'm pleading with the other reasonable posters to just block WPR. Why argue with monsters? Why lower ourselves to this? He thinks a twelve year old got himself shot, and refuses to acknowledge the lies on the reports that were filed on this totally legit shooting. I've seen this several times since the grand jury announced its decision, but I don't remember what specifically the inconsistencies were. Can someone remind me or link me to a discussion?
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Dec 29, 2015 16:32
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lfield posted:What the hell are you talking about? He got shot before the car even stopped moving. What could he have possibly done different in that split second to ensure he didn't get shot? Be white
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Dec 29, 2015 16:39
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Do we need that level of control to expect a 12 year old to understand Tamir's actions were reckless? His own friend warned him for crying out loud. If Tamir chose to ignore that advice he's taking a risk with even the best trained police. No he's taking a risk that poorly-trained police would happen upon him. The best-trained police would not be worse at threat assessment than random parkgoers who correctly identified Rice as a likely juvenile with a toy gun, and they would not charge someone who might be armed, poo poo their pants, start shooting before giving the suspect a chance to react, hide from his body, cuff a little girl after they knew her brother that they killed was unarmed, then lie about the whole thing on a report. The police made a ton of unforced mistakes that ended up with someone dying. When a plane crashes we identify preventable mistakes and oversights from the trained professional in charge of the situation, we don't say "well no point in training pilots for mechanical errors, mechanical systems should just be perfect lol" because real people make mistakes and robust systems don't fail and kill people any time anyone involved anywhere on the line fucks up because expecting bad situations to just never come up is foolish and dangerous. I mean we can test out your system in the real world and see if 12-year-olds are reckless ever: oh look they are and professionals were unable to deal with it without killing one despite having many opportunities to better handle the situation! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 16:40
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This was written about the officer who shot Tamir: https://twitter.com/juddlegum/status/681667554444742656 Good thing he went on to prove that assessment wro--ohhhh gently caress.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:43
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Grundulum posted:That's a mischaracterization of the argument and you know it. The argument is that if rights are different, it is more moral to bolster the rights of the less-privileged than to remove the rights of the police. I don't think anyone has claimed that non-police have more rights than do cops. Except the only people talking about 'taking away the rights of the police' are the ones flailing around as to why holding police to the same standards and laws as everyone else is doing that. People say if enough people complain about a cop then they should at least look into it gets straw manned into "you think cops should get fired based on one anonymous complaint?" and that only sworn signed statements made to the same department as the cop can count. Even after videos of people being threatened and arrested for just trying to file a complaint. This is not lowering anyone's 'rights' every job besides cops if enough people complain about an employee their boss will at least look into it to see if there's any merit. This isn't losing rights as a worker, if enough people complain you're doing a poo poo job management at least looking to see if those complaints are valid is SOP for every job in existence. Except cops. Secondly if a COP is caught committing perjury he/she should absolutely be held to a higher standard. They are enforcing the law, breaking the law should carry a higher penalty. Steal some oxy and you get thrown in jail. Write yourself scripts or help yourself to them as a pharmacist and your no longer a doctor/pharmacist. Holding people to a higher standard in jobs they have the ability to abuse is not diminishing any workers rights. You are given the authority to do things above and beyond a normal person, violating that should carry a stiffer penalty.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:48
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VitalSigns posted:I mean we can test out your system in the real world and see if 12-year-olds are reckless ever: oh look they are and professionals were unable to deal with it without killing one despite having many opportunities to better handle the situation! Saying "the victim should have done [not what they did]" is disingenuous as hell since there's no standard for what to do when police surprise someone with a gun pointed at him or her. You can find examples where raising hands, doing nothing, moving hands towards the waist area, going into shock after being taser, doing exactly what you are told, etc results in getting killed. It's just a way to make sure there is always, always a reason that the person killed is responsible and the person that actually has agency over and started the encounter is absolved of all culpability. I can't think of any case where this sort of argument can't be used. Toasticle posted:Secondly if a COP is caught committing perjury he/she should absolutely be held to a higher standard. They are enforcing the law, breaking the law should carry a higher penalty. Steal some oxy and you get thrown in jail. Write yourself scripts or help yourself to them as a pharmacist and your no longer a doctor/pharmacist. Holding people to a higher standard in jobs they have the ability to abuse is not diminishing any workers rights. You are given the authority to do things above and beyond a normal person, violating that should carry a stiffer penalty. Yeah the fact that police testimony both holds more weight than an average persons and is treated as true until proven otherwise but then when it turns out the testimony is a blatant lie it's just "haha oh well!" is really wrong. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 16:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_aAyQVffLc stuff about Cleveland, second half is about both of the cops at the scene.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:54
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ClancyEverafter posted:This was written about the officer who shot Tamir: Yeah, the civil suit will be a slam dunk. Too bad taxpayer money isn't actual justice.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:59
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Grundulum posted:I've seen this several times since the grand jury announced its decision, but I don't remember what specifically the inconsistencies were. Can someone remind me or link me to a discussion? Loehmann's statement can he found here. He says he ordered Rice to show his hands multiple times and Rice refused. He says he hesitated to shoot until Rice actually pulled the gun out and started to aim it at him. He also writes like a loving idiot, so there's that.
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Dec 29, 2015 16:59
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Jarmak posted:Here I bolded the part of my post where I specifically answered what you're curious about!: Oh, ok, I see how you got confused. The article is about a lawsuit over how bail in handled in that state, and you construed it as badly written because it didn't walk you through what "cash bail" is. I think the LA times made that choice because it's a CA paper whose readers would be reasonably likely to understand affairs in CA, or at least would be willing to look up clarifying information if they needed it, as I did. You may recognize "cash bail", rather than bail itself, as the practice the article repeatedly cites as being the object of the lawsuit. Regarding bail in general, it is common for an accused person who has been granted bail to put up property equivalent to the cash value of the bail set by the judge, such as a car or a house. In CA, at his discretion the judge may require the accused to post the full amount in cash before they're released. The suit is arguing that this practice specifically places an unconstitutional burden on making bail, not that bail in general is unconstitutional. The article also indicates that this requirement is applied much more sparingly to the wealthy. I think they could also make the case that judges are setting unconstitutional bail amounts on the assumption that the accused will have to use a bondsman, hence requiring $150,000 cash bail from a woman who earned $10.50/hr and would have abandoned an invalid relative if she had fled. Hope this helps!
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Dec 29, 2015 17:01
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lfield posted:Loehmann's statement can he found here. The justice system is a farce.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:03
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lfield posted:Loehmann's statement can he found here. It's always "funny" when people defend these cases after this information is made public. Like the police involved know that what they did was hosed which is why they lied but then we have people that have to explain why a kid being killed after being given no warning is the real irresponsible one here.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:04
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Waco Panty Raid posted:What are you talking about? He was clearly reacting before the car stopped. Either address this or drop this bullshit argument. Spoke Lee posted:Why do you keep mentioning "motioning to his waistband" like it means anything when they rolled up and shot him too fast to even react to that. They themselves thought it was so indefensibly fast they lied on their report to hide that fact.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:12
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Man, look at all those bullshit catchphrases in that statement that they train cops with.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:15
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That report reads like someone's first assignment in an intro to creative writing course. It does a terrible job of explaining anything and is filled with subjective interpretations masquerading as fact. Granted this is the first police report I've ever read so maybe this is how they all read but I was expecting more of a "this happened, then this, then this etc." kind of document. His statement that "this was an active shooter situation" is confusing to me, as well. Is it standard to label something as an active shooter situation when no shots have been fired, if there is a reasonable suspicion they might be?
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Dec 29, 2015 17:25
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nozh posted:That report reads like someone's first assignment in an intro to creative writing course. It does a terrible job of explaining anything and is filled with subjective interpretations masquerading as fact. Granted this is the first police report I've ever read so maybe this is how they all read but I was expecting more of a "this happened, then this, then this etc." kind of document. It's a pretty dark humor that comes to mind at this, considering in the last thread we had a multi page fight about what constitutes an active shooter situation when an officer blew his wife away in front of his daughter while the police on site did absolutely nothing.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:28
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nozh posted:
I think this is the same sort of thing that led to John Crawford's killing when no shots had been fired but the police didn't bother to confirm that before neutralizing the "threat." See this officer shooting his wife isn't an active shooter since he wasn't constantly shooting his gun in between the two times he shot his wife but this child pointing a toy in a park or a guy holding a toy in a store are because they should have known better.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:29
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Between his post history, avatar, and username, are we absolutely sure Waco Panty Raid isn't just Ted Cruz? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 29, 2015 17:45
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nozh posted:Granted this is the first police report I've ever read so maybe this is how they all read
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Dec 29, 2015 17:49
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Can the Rice family sue the local government/police dept/shooter for a poo poo load of money?
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Dec 29, 2015 17:49
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shrike82 posted:Can the Rice family sue the local government/police dept/shooter for a poo poo load of money? They can probably get a wrongful death suit out of it. God help us if they actually do, though. The right wing hate sphere is going to have a field day on that. You're going to hear nonstop "they're just greedy jerks using the tragedy for a quick buck."
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Dec 29, 2015 18:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:They can probably get a wrongful death suit out of it. They will likely give the Rice family a papparazzo experience. Believe you me, it isn't just going to just be mean things they write, they're going to gently caress with the family, like they hosed with Trayvon Martin's.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:31
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ToxicSlurpee posted:They can probably get a wrongful death suit out of it. The DA who spiked his case has already said exactly that, in case you weren't angry enough. quote:Ohio prosecutor Timothy McGinty accused the family of 12-year-old police shooting victim Tamir Rice of being “economically motivated” in their pursuit to bring the officer responsible to trial.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:32
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"They're very interesting people" Hmm were they clear spoken and articulate McGinty? Dude's the perfect prosecutor to have out there spreading the good news about justice served.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:33
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Some day making vague intimations and calling the families of those killed by police "interesting people" will be seen as just as bad as deliberately keeping black people out of juries.
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Dec 29, 2015 18:37
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I'm from Cleveland and I know this DA and man is he hated in this city. I don't know how much of the rumors are true but I have heard awful things about this guy mostly from degenerates at the casino so again it's not concrete proof just rumors. While reading up on him I found some stuff people have posted about him again who knows if half this poo poo is true so take it with a grain of salt. It should be noted that in this first case the store Biggie's was just recently raided again and he still hasn't been charged. http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2012...te-tim-mcginty/ Who the gently caress knows whats up with this second link its crazy talk but I have heard the stories about him being racist. http://noethics.net/News/index.php?...sfits&Itemid=82 Also for anyone that cares when he was a judge he had a feud with Howard Stern in the early 90's http://clevelandmagazine.com/ME2/di...9A4103FA9B9FAA4 JUDGE V. STERN As a judge, McGinty survived a public feud with radio shock jock Howard Stern. In 1994, Stern's live broadcast from a Flats bar was interrupted by an engineer from rival WMMS, who cut a cable. McGinty sentenced the engineer to 10 days in jail and called Stern a "crude and obscene rabble-rouser." An enraged Stern endorsed McGinty's next challenger and gave him national airtime. McGinty won the election and sent Stern roses, candy and a note that read, "Thank you for all your help."
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Dec 29, 2015 19:08
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The problem with prosecutor misconduct is that the check on them is supposed to be voting them out of office but that doesn't really work when they are supported by the majority that wants this misconduct. This was just posted in the cartoon thread but even from the eighteen hundreds it's perfectly applicable to today.  Just imagine prosecutor McGinty or any of these killer cops as the hillbilly. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 19:14
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EvanSchenck posted:Oh, ok, I see how you got confused. The article is about a lawsuit over how bail in handled in that state, and you construed it as badly written because it didn't walk you through what "cash bail" is. I think the LA times made that choice because it's a CA paper whose readers would be reasonably likely to understand affairs in CA, or at least would be willing to look up clarifying information if they needed it, as I did. You may recognize "cash bail", rather than bail itself, as the practice the article repeatedly cites as being the object of the lawsuit. Hey jackass, the author of the article clearly doesn't understand what cash bail is(or at least writes like they don't), its pretty hard to mind read whether the lawsuit is actually about cash bail and the article doesn't know what it means or whether its not about cash bail and they article was using the term incorrectly: quote:Crystal Patterson didn’t have the cash or assets to post $150,000 bail and get out of jail after her arrest on an assault charge in October. quote:Wealthy suspects can put up their houses or other valuable assets — or simply write checks — to post bail and stay out of jail until their cases are resolved. Poorer suspects are not so lucky. Author writes as if poor people are being hosed because they don't have assets to put up, not because they have cash requirements. The rest of the article devotes most of its time to arguments that these people shouldn't have bail at all and giving examples of a the federal system where most minor crimes get RoR. There's literally nothing in this article devotes any time to the arguments specific to cash bail whatsoever. Also its not an LA Times article its from the national news sections of the Washington Post, the LA times just picked it up off the AP wire.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:22
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Captain_Maclaine posted:The DA who spiked his case has already said exactly that, in case you weren't angry enough. In a just alternate universe they should be able to use this douchbags statements during his disbarment for blatant bias in a job where he is supposed to be neutral. And how the gently caress does his first statement even make sense? Unless I've missed something how often does money get awarded in a murder trial?
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Dec 29, 2015 20:25
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Toasticle posted:And how the gently caress does his first statement even make sense? Unless I've missed something how often does money get awarded in a murder trial? Not defending that statement, but to answer your question: restitution can be awarded in criminal proceedings, and a guilty verdict is going to bolster a civil suit. The state may also have a victim compensation fund.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:40
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