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Best card spoiled is still Goblin Dark-Dwellers.  Totally serious though. I'm gonna be mcmagicing for this card until it rotates out. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 22:15
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planeswalkerwalk
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Dec 29, 2015 22:19
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Entropic posted:It depends on what the card actually says, given the various mangled translations. I see some translations saying it copies base power and toughness, which would make it way less good with a lot of things. on mtg salv spanish speakers are saying that the card says mimic eldrazi's base power and toughness copies the power and toughness of the new creature. So it works with endless one and Hangarback.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:20
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Entropic posted:It depends on what the card actually says, given the various mangled translations. I see some translations saying it copies base power and toughness, which would make it way less good with a lot of things. "Whenever another colourless creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may have Mimico Eldrazi's base power and toughness become equal to that creature's power and toughness until end of turn."
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Dec 29, 2015 22:21
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Booklegger posted:Copy effects only ever look at base stats. They've never done otherwise (Offer not valid pre-6th edition.)
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Dec 29, 2015 22:21
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Isn't a $15 preorder price for a planeswalker a massive tell that anybody "in the know" thinks it's going to be poo poo? Seems to me that I remember $25 (or higher, sometimes much higher) being the more usual price window for planeswalker preorders, though I could be confusing that with first-weekend-of-release prices instead.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:37
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Angry Grimace posted:I was gonna say "but he has Bargain out" except lol he only has 3 cards. Wait she's preordering at 15$? SCG doesn't cancel those, right?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:49
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Booklegger posted:Nah, it'll copy base power and toughness either way. Layers, man. Layers. It entirely depends on the ability phrasing. If it copies values then pumps don't matter (because of layers), but it sets its own base P/T to a value equal to the new creature's P/T then pump spells are totally relevant. I just assume it will use copy text because the power level of this set has been super low so why deviate now.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:49
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JerryLee posted:Isn't a $15 preorder price for a planeswalker a massive tell that anybody "in the know" thinks it's going to be poo poo? Seems to me that I remember $25 (or higher, sometimes much higher) being the more usual price window for planeswalker preorders, though I could be confusing that with first-weekend-of-release prices instead. Yes. For the most obviously powerful or hyped ones I've seen them set it at $40 even. $15 pre-order means it'll be Sarkhan/Narset real price levels, which is to say, it'll be as cheap as any planeswalker ever is.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:51
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Angry Grimace posted:Best card spoiled is still Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:54
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stinkles1112 posted:Yes. For the most obviously powerful or hyped ones I've seen them set it at $40 even. $15 pre-order means it'll be Sarkhan/Narset real price levels, which is to say, it'll be as cheap as any planeswalker ever is. $15 was what both Ob Nixilis pre-ordered for and $17-20 was what I saw Kiora for. Ob Nix is about $6 and Kiora costs a little less than the pack she comes in. Irony Be My Shield posted:An evasive 5 mana 4/4 with a very powerful ETB ability will probably be good enough. If you look at the kind of things you'll be getting back with it (KoCo, Crackling Doom, Charms, Firecraft) I feel like it's fairly comparable to Wingmate Roc. I feel like it compares well to stuff like Stormbreath Dragon (since stats and evasion are similar), but even considering you have to actually have a card in the yard for the ETB to do anything. Most sorceries and instants in constructed play are 3 mana or less anyways and all of them are very good for their cost. Sure, sometimes you get nothing, but Stormbreath itself died to Ultimate Price or Hero's Downfall before anything happened plenty of times. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 22:56
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Mikujin posted:It entirely depends on the ability phrasing. If it copies values then pumps don't matter (because of layers), but it sets its own base P/T to a value equal to the new creature's P/T then pump spells are totally relevant. Can you find an old card that sets it's own P/T in such a way? (Where pump spells are relevant) I can't think of a single example off hand. But, well, ~*Edge Cases*~
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Dec 29, 2015 22:56
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Expeditions made even Gideon very cheap, I think they're preparing for the same thing to happen with OGW.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:59
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Angry Grimace posted:$15 was what both Ob Nixilis pre-ordered for and $17-20 was what I saw Kiora for. Ob Nix is about $6 and Kiora costs a little less than the pack she comes in. Hahahaha yeah exactly, Kiora being a $20 preorder tells you all you need to know.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Expeditions made even Gideon very cheap, I think they're preparing for the same thing to happen with OGW. So what we should really be upset about is that origins didn't have expeditions? 
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Dec 29, 2015 23:01
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I'm still confused by Kor Haven of all things being an expedition. I mean... Kor Haven? Is that even played in any deck in any real format? Is it a Commander thing? Including that thing but not Wasteland is kinda hilarious.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:06
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Entropic posted:I'm still confused by Kor Haven of all things being an expedition. I mean... Kor Haven? Is that even played in any deck in any real format? Is it a Commander thing? Including that thing but not Wasteland is kinda hilarious. There always have to be feelsbads expeditions.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:07
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They did include Wasteland, and both its strictly better and strictly worse cousins.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:08
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Entropic posted:I'm still confused by Kor Haven of all things being an expedition. I mean... Kor Haven? Is that even played in any deck in any real format? Is it a Commander thing? Including that thing but not Wasteland is kinda hilarious. Yeah, it's a commander thing - foil Kor Havens are worth ~$40 atm. Given how flavorful it is for Zendikar, it's not a bad choice.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:09
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If I understand layers (I probably don't), then it doesn't matter whether the effect is a copy effect--effects that set P/T to specific values always apply before pumps anyways.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:11
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Booklegger posted:Can you find an old card that sets it's own P/T in such a way? (Where pump spells are relevant) I can't think of a single example off hand. But, well, ~*Edge Cases*~ Sworn Defender from Alara had a P/T settling ability that used current P/T and not base. In both cases these types of abilities aren't used often so it could easily be either and we won't know until we get the English language printing.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:14
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cheetah7071 posted:If I understand layers (I probably don't), then it doesn't matter whether the effect is a copy effect--effects that set P/T to specific values always apply before pumps anyways. Which is exactly why we are saying phrasing of the ability is what matters. If it uses copy specifically or sets in another fashion.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:15
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Angry Grimace posted:Totally serious though. I'm gonna be mcmagicing for this card until it rotates out. lol the metaphor breaks down because it's actually a good card that will see play
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Dec 29, 2015 23:15
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Irony Be My Shield posted:They did include Wasteland, and both its strictly better and strictly worse cousins. Oh right. I keep seeing the image of only 15 of the 20 that was going around, which I guess also includes only some of the filter lands, which would make no sense.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:15
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Mikujin posted:Sworn Defender from Alara had a P/T settling ability that used current P/T and not base. In both cases these types of abilities aren't used often so it could easily be either and we won't know until we get the English language printing. Alliances .Really a mouthful for conveying the idea of "don't kill the guy".
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Dec 29, 2015 23:16
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cheetah7071 posted:If I understand layers (I probably don't), then it doesn't matter whether the effect is a copy effect--effects that set P/T to specific values always apply before pumps anyways. Yes, the layers thing is only when you're copying a whole creature or something, in which case you get the base P/T, because you're copying the creature itself, not any effects that are currently on it. If something references a creature's P/T, it takes whatever that creature's P/T is at the time. Otherwise, e.g. Fling wouldn't work with pump spells.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:17
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Zoness posted:Alliances Oops yeah I'm dumb but yeah
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Dec 29, 2015 23:17
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Entropic posted:The layers thing is only when you're copying a whole creature or something, in which case you get the base P/T, because you're copying the creature itself, not any effects that are currently on it. If something references a creature's P/T, it takes whatever that creature's P/T is at the time. Otherwise, e.g. Fling wouldn't work with pump spells. But, at the time that this continuous effect is applied, that creature's P/T still hasn't been pumped yet, because those pumps are applied in a later layer. Again, assuming I'm not missing something. Basically: Layer 7a: Eldrazi Mimic is a 2/1. Hangarback walker is a 0/0 Layer 7b: Hangarback Walker is still a 0/0. Eldrazi Mimic's continuous effect is applied, and it becomes a 0/0 Layer 7c: n/a Layer 7d: Hangarback walker's counter is applied, and it is now a 1/1. Eldrazi Mimic has no counters, and remains a 0/0. Layer 7e: n/a So the final answer is that Hangarback walker is a 1/1 and Eldrazi Mimic is a 0/0. Am I missing something here?
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Dec 29, 2015 23:23
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cheetah7071 posted:But, at the time that this continuous effect is applied, that creature's P/T still hasn't been pumped yet, because those pumps are applied in a later layer. Again, assuming I'm not missing something. Well Eldrazi Mimic has a triggered ability not a continuous effect, for starters. When another colorless creature enters the battlefield under your control, a triggered ability goes on the stack that says "Set Eldrazi Mimic's base P/T to that creature's P/T until end of turn". When that ability resolves it will use whatever that creature's P/T actually was when it checked during its resolution. Which would include counters and pump effects and anthems and whatever.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:30
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The P/T setting ability is a trigger ("When this happens do this") and not continuous (literally every llurgoyf), first of all. Secondly, the outcome of the ability depends on the phrasing of it. If it's a copy ability that checks copiable values (ie. Base P/T) then pumps won't matter because of how layers are applied. However, if the ability simply sets P/T based on the creature's P/T when the ability resolves then pumps will matter.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:30
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If a card is checking power or toughness of a creature, it looks at what the value actually currently is, including all modifiers. It's why you can counter a Complete Disregard with a Titan's Strength.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:32
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Entropic posted:Well Eldrazi Mimic has a triggered ability not a continuous effect, for starters. Oh that makes sense. It is a continuous effect, but since the effect is created by a triggered ability, not a static ability, it gets to "check" what values to use outside of the layer system (1/1 in my example). Then it uses that same value in layer 7b that it found when the triggered ability resolved, regardless of anything else.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:33
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cheetah7071 posted:Oh that makes sense. It is a continuous effect, but since the effect is created by a triggered ability, not a static ability, it gets to "check" what values to use outside of the layer system (1/1 in my example). Then it uses that same value in layer 7b that it found when the triggered ability resolved, regardless of anything else. It's not a continuous effect. It's a triggered ability
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Dec 29, 2015 23:34
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Entropic posted:If a card is checking power or toughness of a creature, it looks at what the value actually currently is, including all modifiers. It's why you can counter a Complete Disregard with a Titan's Strength.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:35
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A big flaming stink posted:It's not a continuous effect. It's a triggered ability It can be both! A continuous effect is usually created by a spell or ability. e: "Continuous effect" and "Static ability" are not the same thing cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 23:36
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cheetah7071 posted:Oh that makes sense. It is a continuous effect, but since the effect is created by a triggered ability, not a static ability, it gets to "check" what values to use outside of the layer system (1/1 in my example). Then it uses that same value in layer 7b that it found when the triggered ability resolved, regardless of anything else. No it's not a continuous effect at all. Continous effects change without using the stack based on certain game conditions. For example you can't kill a 2/3 Tarmogoyf with Bolt if there are no instant in a graveyard because its P/T become 3/4 by the time we check to see if it has lethal damage. It changes instantly, we cannot respond to it. If Mimic was a continuous then its P/T would change as the P/T of the new creature changes which it doesn't do. It a P/T setting triggered ability and that only happens once.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:38
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611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period. 611.2. A continuous effect may be generated by the resolution of a spell or ability. 611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as “until end of turn”). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game. Definitely a continuous effect created by the resolution of a triggered ability. I may have been confused by when it would recheck the value it was using in layer 7b, but it IS a continuous effect.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:41
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Mikujin posted:The P/T setting ability is a trigger ("When this happens do this") and not continuous (literally every llurgoyf), first of all. So, from what I now know, there's like 3 cards in magic's history which actually set power and toughness in such a way that pump spells help. Sworn Defender, Shape Stealer, and Zegana. Like it *MIGHT* happen, but I would assume it's a copy effect until proven otherwise.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:42
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It will probably be mentioned in the rules article when the full spoiler goes up.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:43
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man, this Support X mechanic seems so  it could very well be good, but it feels boring.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:43
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