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Panfilo posted:Is there no middle ground when it comes to the force? Seems like everybody that's on the dark side becomes a murderous rear end in a top hat. What about the more moderate jerks with force powers? Is it always such a slippery slope? Lucas' opinion on the Force is that the Dark Side is a corruptive force, so once you start down the path of the dark side it continues to dominate your destiny. It's also a tempting force so "hey, man, just a little force lightning, it's for a good cause" is the first step. It's like trying to use a LITTLE bit of Satan's help. You're kinda already down the shitslope even if you have good intentions.
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Dec 30, 2015 00:53
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Btw I noticed some talk earlier about Nien Nub dying during the Starkiller fight, but you can see him in the scene where they are bidding Rey farewell at the end. He's okay. 
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Dec 30, 2015 00:55
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Jewel Repetition posted:Way, way less weird than what you've been posting to be honest. The things I write are true and accurate. If you ever see me ranting about individual posters' complicity in the 'Cultural Marxist' conspiracy to subjugate white masculinity, please put a bullet into my head.
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Dec 30, 2015 01:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The things I write are true and accurate. I'll keep the rule of thirds in mind if I ever have to Old Yeller ya.
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Dec 30, 2015 01:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The things I write are true and accurate. He... didn't say anything like that.
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Dec 30, 2015 01:09
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I think Yoda's whole "luminous beings" spiel works to shake Luke from his preconceptions and flawed approach to the Force but doesn't work as, like, general lifestyle advice for the discerning Jedi. Blind asceticism does not lead to balance in the Force. Ignoring the physical world does not lead to balance. The Force is of the physical world, not separate from it. Tossing out vague proverbs about detachment and responsibility to someone who's struggling to deal with real physical, material problems is just prequel Yoda all over again. (Er, in-universe chronologically-speaking)ijyt posted:So for some reason this post made me think, what if those are just microbes drawn to force sensitives and not what makes up the force itself. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 01:15
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What he's saying about Dooku is totally on point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaXHDpCe-KI There's the conversation. Dooku tells the truth to Obi Wan.
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Dec 30, 2015 01:15
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ImpAtom posted:When ANH was first released in theaters it did not have Episode VI. It was only added in the 1981 re-release. It doesn't matter. That was still the intended conceit when it was released, and certainly by the time pre-production on The Empire Strikes Back was under way, further solidifying the contours of the bizarre story structure. This isn't stuff Lucas is just making up; that, in itself, is a pernicious myth. This is something that even Gary Kurtz backs up: Gary Kurtz posted:We were toying with the idea of calling it Episode III, IV, or V — something in the middle. Fox hated that idea. They said it’ll really confuse the audience — and actually they were right. If you go to see a film, and it’s been touted as this new science fiction film, and it says Episode III up there, you’d say, “What the hell?” Furthermore, the original rough draft of The Star Wars contains an involved political back story (even involving a traitorous Count) before the bulk of the action resembling that found in A New Hope begins. This is the same original draft where the hero's father is introduced as a Jedi Knight who has tragically become a cyborg, and as a result has become a pathetic figure devoid of his former prodigious strength in the Force. He is an active participant in the plot during this extended first act, and expires shortly before the beginning of the second act after heroically sacrificing his life for a pair of royal twins. After this point in the plot, the Sith Knight Valorum looms large over the course of the next act until after he humiliatingly fails to capture the heroes, at which point he is demoted by his superiors and reduced to the lowly rank of stormtrooper. He, like the hero's cyborg father, becomes a pathetic figure constrained by inhumane forces beyond his control. Most notably, he is bossed around by a cruel Imperial general named Darth Vader. During a confrontation with the hero on the Death Star, Valorum reveals a shadow of what was once a noble spirit, and laments that he has chosen to ally himself with the robotic, dehumanizing Empire: quote:VALORUM It is at this point that the Sith Knight Valorum redeems himself by turning on Darth Vader and helping the young hero to escape the Death Star. Notably, Valorum actually survives, and lives to stand by the young hero's side as they are all honored at a Rebel award ceremony. There is a case to be made that Valorum has actually become a new, surrogate father for the young hero: The young hero succeeds in redeeming his greatest enemy, even where he earlier failed to save his beloved father from being consumed by dehumanizing technology. It is not hard to see that all the thematic roots for the Vader-as-father subplot in the original trilogy, and indeed for the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker which defines the prequel trilogy, were present here even in this original rough draft, just as Lucas has always maintained. People have accused him of lying, because they don't understand that in interviews Lucas is, by necessity, usually talking fairly glibly about a very convoluted creative process. He simplifies things for the sound bites. He refers to the rough draft's cyborg father and the Sith Knight Valorum as being one original, tragic character called "Darth Vader," because that is what they ultimately became; and from the standpoint of being asked questions about the creative evolution of the story, it's a reasonable enough way to explain things in soundbite form. If you want to know all the boring, complicated specifics, you have to buy the Making Of books Lucas put out. Anyway, by the time Lucas penned the second draft, the entire first act containing the political background and the tragedy of the cyborg father had been dropped from the story. This draft's subtitle indeed became, simply, "Episode One," but it's clear that Lucas was painfully aware that he'd had to eliminate a fair amount of context-giving backstory in order to create a leaner screenplay, and kept the idea in the back of his mind that this first film was really just the middle part of a larger story. And yes, this is all rather arcane stuff and fairly tedious to explain--compounded by the fact that few people probably bother to even read monster posts like this--which is why pretty much everything the average nerd (or even average member of the entertainment media) knows about George Lucas and the history of Star Wars is tragically wrong, or at least unfarily one-sided. The "Secret History of Star Wars" guy almost did a good job of rectifying this situation....but I know from past experience with him on the web that he really does not seem to like or respect George Lucas very much at all, and as a result I think he latched on to an overzealously revisionist narrative that was less enlightening or educational than it was further obfuscatory. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 01:35
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There was a scene in one of the trailers where one of those Crystal doodads that make light sabers work is being placed in one with tongs. I didn't catch this bit in the film. Or did it happen quickly and I missed it?
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Dec 30, 2015 01:35
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Panfilo posted:There was a scene in one of the trailers where one of those Crystal doodads that make light sabers work is being placed in one with tongs. I didn't catch this bit in the film. Or did it happen quickly and I missed it? I think we'll need a time code for that, since I don't think that happened in any of the trailers...
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Dec 30, 2015 01:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The things I write are true and accurate. You said we were told and not shown that Leia was fighting to restore the monarchy. That was pretty weird, man. That claim about the resistance is pretty weird by itself, but it's definitely not said in the film. Even if we assume the lines in question meant the resistance was monarchist, conveying information with dialogue isn't inherently telling and not showing in an audiovisual medium, especially when the dialogue doesn't perfectly match the information being conveyed. So that's weird.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:07
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Teek posted:I think we'll need a time code for that, since I don't think that happened in any of the trailers... Yeah, I don't recall this at all either.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:10
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:You said we were told and not shown that Leia was fighting to restore the monarchy. That was pretty weird, man. That claim about the resistance is pretty weird by itself, but it's definitely not said in the film. Even if we assume the lines in question meant the resistance was monarchist, conveying information with dialogue isn't inherently telling and not showing in an audiovisual medium, especially when the dialogue doesn't perfectly match the information being conveyed. I was thinking about Rey's flashbacks and how they act as visual representations of stuff that we wouldn't otherwise have in the movie. And I realized, maybe that wasn't a good idea. In ANH there was a lot of stuff that was just spoken of, usually in the past, like Luke's father or the dead Bothans or the galactic senate or the surface of Alderaan. It let your imagination fill in the details and also made the setting feel bigger.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:52
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Panfilo posted:There was a scene in one of the trailers where one of those Crystal doodads that make light sabers work is being placed in one with tongs. I didn't catch this bit in the film. Or did it happen quickly and I missed it? You're probably thinking of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzq9epS2b1A&t=46s
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Dec 30, 2015 02:57
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Cnut the Great posted:It doesn't matter. That was still the intended conceit when it was released, and certainly by the time pre-production on The Empire Strikes Back was under way, further solidifying the contours of the bizarre story structure. This isn't stuff Lucas is just making up; that, in itself, is a pernicious myth. This is something that even Gary Kurtz backs up: I just wanted to say that that original script sounds pretty rad and I'd like to see a movie about that.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:57
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Cnut the Great posted:It doesn't matter. Yes it does. There's no 'it was the middle part' for the audience of Star Wars. There was just Star Wars and it stood well on its own merits. I know literally everything else you put in your post. (Which is a good post, not to discredit it.) It's just that it is genuinely unimportant. Most writers will craft a history and backstory for their characters even if it doesn't appear onscreen. Many excellent films are the 'middle part' of a story just without an episode 1/2/3 existing. (Or eventually existing later down the line and usually being unnecessary.) TFA doesn't need films for this backstory between Episodes IV and VII. Star Wars didn't need Episode 1, 2 and 3. Hell, Episode 2 didn't need Episode 1.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:58
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teagone posted:You're probably thinking of this: Yeah. Guess I must've been seeing a fan trailer where they snuck that bit in.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:00
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RBA Starblade posted:I just wanted to say that that original script sounds pretty rad and I'd like to see a movie about that. Marvel made it into a comic, so you can at least read it.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:00
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Jewel Repetition posted:I was thinking about Rey's flashbacks and how they act as visual representations of stuff that we wouldn't otherwise have in the movie. And I realized, maybe that wasn't a good idea. In ANH there was a lot of stuff that was just spoken of, usually in the past, like Luke's father or the dead Bothans or the galactic senate or the surface of Alderaan. It let your imagination fill in the details and also made the setting feel bigger. In fact, I think the passing references may have been part of the overall space serial aesthetic, along with the opening crawl and the episode IV designation. Where it feels in medias res without actually being.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:04
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Jewel Repetition posted:He... didn't say anything like that. I only wrote that the film was generic, so where did the Frankfurt School stuff come from? (In today's right wing, 'Frankfurt School' fills a boogeyman role roughly analogous to 'Freemasonry'.) ThePlague-Daemon posted:You said we were told and not shown that Leia was fighting to restore the monarchy. That was pretty weird, man. That claim about the resistance is pretty weird by itself, but it's definitely not said in the film. Even if we assume the lines in question meant the resistance was monarchist, conveying information with dialogue isn't inherently telling and not showing in an audiovisual medium, especially when the dialogue doesn't perfectly match the information being conveyed. I think people are getting confused because, yeah, no character yells out "we're gonna restore the monarchy!" We are actually shown and told almost nothing about the Resistance. They are defined by what they aren't. They aren't liberal-democratic, they aren't 'totalitarian', they aren't authentically/radically Christian.... They aren't a lot of things. But they are a few things, and those nuances all point to the same sort of feudalism as in Christopher Nolan's last two movies. Leia is, pointedly, (re)introduced accompanied by her manservant. Everything stresses her nobility. And so-on. This is the ideology of the film. Leia goes beyond the Republic (and the Rebel Alliance attempting to restore the Republic) by going Full Naboo - Naboo without Coruscant. That's why nobody gives a poo poo when the Republic is obliterated. This is what makes her comparable to Dooku - except that, unlike Dooku, her underlying motivation is obscured.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:08
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ImpAtom posted:Yes it does. There's no 'it was the middle part' for the audience of Star Wars. There was just Star Wars and it stood well on its own merits. On the other hand, Kylo Ren's backstory is probably going to be revealed via flashback or exposition over the next two movies. So why not make that a movie of its own and put the story in chronological order?
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Dec 30, 2015 03:10
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Effectronica posted:On the other hand, Kylo Ren's backstory is probably going to be revealed via flashback or exposition over the next two movies. So why not make that a movie of its own and put the story in chronological order? Because there's absolutely no reason to do that? It's okay for things to be surprises to the audience or revealed later down the line. Not everything has to be in chronological order. We don't know Kylo Ren's full motivation and there may be a twist, surprise or subversion that is part of it that you wouldn't see if it was done chronologically. (Like, for example, how Episode 1-3 do reveal the twist of Vader being Luke's father though the cat was well out of that bag.)
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Dec 30, 2015 03:16
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Effectronica posted:On the other hand, Kylo Ren's backstory is probably going to be revealed via flashback or exposition over the next two movies. So why not make that a movie of its own and put the story in chronological order? Because right now it doesn't matter. Later, it might, once we're introduced further to Snoke and his motivations, but right now all we need to know is that Ren has become radicalized. Just like the fact that Vader is Luke's father plays no part in A New Hope, so that information is saved until the next movie.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:17
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Effectronica posted:On the other hand, Kylo Ren's backstory is probably going to be revealed via flashback or exposition over the next two movies. So why not make that a movie of its own and put the story in chronological order?
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Dec 30, 2015 03:18
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ImpAtom posted:Because there's absolutely no reason to do that? It's okay for things to be surprises to the audience or revealed later down the line. Not everything has to be in chronological order. We don't know Kylo Ren's full motivation and there may be a twist, surprise or subversion that is part of it that you wouldn't see if it was done chronologically. (Like, for example, how Episode 1-3 do reveal the twist of Vader being Luke's father though the cat was well out of that bag.) There's no reason not to do that, either. But, if his motivations are more than facile (for example, there are three whole movies dedicated to developing Darth Vader's motivations) then they're going to eat away at the actual events of the later episodes. I'd rather have the Star Wars movies stay well away from the poisonous serialization of the Marvel movies. WrathOfBlade posted:Why is the original Star Wars trilogy more fun to watch if you haven't seen the prequels? It isn't. Fun is subjective. Phylodox posted:Because right now it doesn't matter. Later, it might, once we're introduced further to Snoke and his motivations, but right now all we need to know is that Ren has become radicalized. Just like the fact that Vader is Luke's father plays no part in A New Hope, so that information is saved until the next movie. That information is placed in the second movie because it's necessary for Luke's story that it come at that point. So, are we going to have an interquel/gaiden for Kylo Ren so that we can explore his motivations, or will it swallow up Episodes 8 and 9? Or will he have fairly threadbare motivations?
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Dec 30, 2015 03:27
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Effectronica posted:I'd rather have the Star Wars movies stay well away from the poisonous serialization of the Marvel movies. But.. that's exactly what you're asking for? More 'origin stories' and more buildup and all of that. A villain's motivations taking up screentime is not 'eating away at the film.' That's part of the film. Like the mere idea that a villain getting development and characterization and their plot within the context of a film they are the villain of being a bad thing is just bewildering to me. That is how films have worked for years. It's only in the modern Marvel world that we seem to need THE ORIGIN OF KYLO REN: STAR WARS EPISODE VII
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Dec 30, 2015 03:30
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Effectronica posted:That information is placed in the second movie because it's necessary for Luke's story that it come at that point. So, are we going to have an interquel/gaiden for Kylo Ren so that we can explore his motivations, or will it swallow up Episodes 8 and 9? Or will he have fairly threadbare motivations? Unless you're privy to some information we're not, we don't know. We don't know how Kylo Ren's motivations will play into the larger plot. For all you know, it "swallowing up" the following episodes might be the entire point.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:31
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ImpAtom posted:But.. that's exactly what you're asking for? More 'origin stories' and more buildup and all of that. I want these movies to have events rather than having them rely on flashbacks and exposition, or else creating facile explanations, in order to explain things like motivations. Phylodox posted:Unless you're privy to some information we're not, we don't know. We don't know how Kylo Ren's motivations will play into the larger plot. For all you know, it "swallowing up" the following episodes might be the entire point. Well, then they'll be bad movies, since nothing will happen in them with all the leaden weight of flashback.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:31
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If they're looking for a young Han Solo, they should probably get this kid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba_wPdLxp4 He's already portrayed a youthful Harrison Ford once in a movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqxTfzgIvSY
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Dec 30, 2015 03:32
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Effectronica posted:I want these movies to have events rather than having them rely on flashbacks and exposition, or else creating facile explanations, in order to explain things like motivations. Why are flashbacks and expositions not events? This is seriously the most confusing thing I've ever heard of. Is Terminator a bad film because it develops Kyle Reese's history and backstory through flashbacks and exposition? The Usual Suspects: A terrible film where nothing happens told entirely via flashbacks and exposition. Rashomon? A total pile of poo poo. Why bother with all these flashbacks, Citizen Kane? We know he is dead, what's the point of all this exposition? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 03:32
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Panfilo posted:Is there no middle ground when it comes to the force? Seems like everybody that's on the dark side becomes a murderous rear end in a top hat. What about the more moderate jerks with force powers? Is it always such a slippery slope? The character you're looking for is Mace Windu, leader of the Jedi Order. He even has a half-red lightsaber. Effectronica posted:On the other hand, Kylo Ren's backstory is probably going to be revealed via flashback or exposition over the next two movies. So why not make that a movie of its own and put the story in chronological order? The prequels already tell us everything that actually matters about Kylo Ren's backstory. Specifically, they tell us about the inadequacy of Jedi orthodoxy for helping an angry self-loathing teen dork upon whom great hopes have been placed, the far-seeing psychological and political stratagems of evil Force users, and the pain and difficulty of committing to darkness. They also enhance the tragedy of the character, by revealing to the audience that his idol is not like what he thought. When we need to know the actual details of the sequence of events that led him to Snoke's service, they'll tell us.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:33
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ImpAtom posted:Why are flashbacks and expositions not events? Okay. Let's take a story with a frame narrative, like, say, Creepshow. Does the frame narrative advance much, if at all, while the rest of the story is going on? No. So reducing Episodes 8 and 9 to frame narratives would prevent anything much from happening in them. What would basically happen is that we would have a real movie or pair of movies, about a character, that have been nested inside another movie and split in half, and set in anachronic order for whatever compelling reason. Maybe we'll all be really appreciative of Episode 8 opening with Luke Skywalker talking as he eats grass for dinner before it fades into Kylo: The Ben Solo Story and enthuse about the additional emotional and dramatic power this adds to the story.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:37
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Effectronica posted:So reducing Episodes 8 and 9 to frame narratives would prevent anything much from happening in them. No it wouldn't have? Like you're literally making no sense here. Like right off the top of my head I can think if a good reason for it: Rey hates Kylo Ren and despises him, much as a lot of the audience does. Over the course of Episode VIII she learns about his backstory which occurs in parallel with her training and own development of character. By the end she has overcome her hatred for Kylo Ren (and those subverted a potential dark side fall) while also putting the audience in the same position to change feelings about the character alongside the protagonist. You're also assuming that a flashback has to take up the entirety of the film or be utterly meaningless to the characters or... like I can't actually imagine a single logical reason for this argument. There are films told almost entirely using flashback and exposition where the point is the narrative compared to the present. Why the gently caress does Kylo Ren's backstory need to be an entire film? 
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 03:39
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ImpAtom posted:No it wouldn't have? Like you're literally making no sense here. If the movie becomes a frame narrative set in the present about a flashback to the past, given that this is part of a series, why not make a movie out of the flashback and use it as an interquel? You don't even need to release it first. Then you can have a movie where things happen and move forward. If this would convert the movies to 7, 8-9, and F (for Flashback), why not have originally written and made them as F, 7, 8-9, for that matter? Like, if his motivations are slim and facile enough they can be summed up in 10 minutes of screentime, that will be fine, but also somewhat disappointing. But I straight-up don't see why you'd make an action-y sci-fi movie in such a way. I guess I could point out at this point that we're on the verge of talking about suspense versus surprise, in the Hitchcockian sense, and that you're arguing surprise is basically better than suspense, but that seems hostile.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:45
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Effectronica posted:If the movie becomes a frame narrative set in the present about a flashback to the past, given that this is part of a series, why not make a movie out of the flashback and use it as an interquel? ... because it doesn't need to be an entire movie? Like this could seriously be a 5 minute thing of Luke Skywalker describing his own failure and how to connects to Kylo Ren. Not every single even that could be made into a movie needs to be made into a movie. It doesn't even need to be a flashback. Characters can have a discussion about it or have it revealed in a dramatic way or all sorts of other things. The original Star Wars films did all of these things! We could have survived perfectly well without the prequel trilogy! ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 03:48
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Why do Ren's motivations have to take place in a flashback? Why can't they be revealed as part of a current storyline? Vader's backstory and motivations were revealed organically through narrative.
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Dec 30, 2015 03:48
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ImpAtom posted:... because it doesn't need to be an entire movie? If the rest of the movie is a frame narrative around this flashback, then it is a movie all on its own. Like, what, the Devil Doll segment of Trilogy of Terror is completely incoherent without the rest of the anthology film? Phylodox posted:Why do Ren's motivations have to take place in a flashback? Why can't they be revealed as part of a current storyline? Vader's backstory and motivations were revealed organically through narrative. Vader's backstory and motivations were revealed over about 360 minutes, so...
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Dec 30, 2015 03:50
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Effectronica posted:If the rest of the movie is a frame narrative around this flashback, then it is a movie all on its own. Why are you assuming this? Why does any form of flashback have to take up the entire film? Effectronica posted:Vader's backstory and motivations were revealed over about 360 minutes, so... So are you just pretending that the prequel trilogy didn't come decades after the original films now or something?
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Dec 30, 2015 03:51
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Effectronica posted:Vader's backstory and motivations were revealed over about 360 minutes, so...
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Dec 30, 2015 03:54
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ImpAtom posted:So are you just pretending that the prequel trilogy didn't come decades after the original films now or something? A prequel is just an achronological sequel. I would say only 300 minutes rather than 360, however, as A New Hope was not very concerned with his backstory or motivations. They were, however, central to the second and third films to be release, and then depicted explicitly for the fourth, fifth, and sixth. (And the seventh is heavily involved with a character who was influenced by those backstory and motivations, while we're at it.)
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Dec 30, 2015 03:56
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