100YrsofAttitude posted:So I think there's something to be said in the fact that Tolkien focused on the Children of Húrin after having finished the LotR. Having read the appendix in said book it comes across that it was clearly the most complete of his unfinished drafts, the appendix mentions his other two developed stories to be Beren and Luthien and Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin. Yet it's also by far somehow the bleakest of those drafts. Beren and Luthien is a straight up success and while the Fall of Gondolin is very bad it results in the ultimate victory over Morgoth. The Children of Húrin on the other hand is pretty much all around bleak resulting in the destruction of an elf kingdom and the last two strongholds of Edain. The victory over Glaurung is pretty hollow ultimately even if it's clearly a good thing. The immediately post-war period was extremely bleak. Bear in mind that in Tolkien's hypothetical allegorical LotR in the second edition, the Ring would represent nuclear weaponry and Saruman the USSR. Turin's story was also much more developed than the other two, as Beren and Lúthien was intended for poetic form, I think, and Tolkien never made much more than a brief sketch of the story of Tuor, essential to the Fall of Gondolin. Hogge Wild posted:why are americans obsessed with happy endings Why are Finns alcoholics, Brits terrible cooks? Who can say where stereotype emerges from in the mind?
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Nov 29, 2015 20:48
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Beren and Luthien is one of my favorite myths and love stories, to be quite honest.
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Nov 29, 2015 21:39
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Effectronica posted:Why are Finns alcoholics cos they drink so much, op
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Nov 30, 2015 01:07
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Aren't most mythological stories ultimately tragedies rather than happy endings though? And as that's what Tolkien was obviously aiming for (with both LOTR and his other writings), it sort of stands to reason that his myths would be tragic as well? Despite the victories of Aragorn's crowning, Sauron's defeat, Sam/Merry/Pippin running the Shire etc, in LOTR there's a very strong sense of tragedy and decline, that the world is permanently worse off overall, as the elves are leaving. And of course Frodo lays down his life in the final chapter to finally achieve peace.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:49
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That's actually pretty true I feel.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:52
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It's like the passing of the day, one might say a kind of twilight.
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Nov 30, 2015 08:17
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I think Tolkien was heavily influenced by Germanic and Norse mythology, and those traditions are even bleaker still: at Ragnarok, evil is essentially destined to win. There is no moral reason to be a good person, other than the innate moral goodness of it. Galadriel's lament / exhortation that "...together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat," is very telling. Tolkien takes the old tradition, however, and gives it the glimmer of Christian hope: we're all doomed in the end, except for the eucatastrophic intervention of God. At any rate, I think The Children of Húrin shows off this melancholic view on worldly struggles.
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Nov 30, 2015 15:23
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Tolkien was fairly pessimistic about this life. Maybe not depressed but deeply sorrowful the direction the world was heading in.
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Nov 30, 2015 16:59
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Ynglaur posted:I think Tolkien was heavily influenced by Germanic and Norse mythology, and those traditions are even bleaker still: at Ragnarok, evil is essentially destined to win. Brothers will fight and kill each other, sisters' children will defile kinship. It is harsh in the world, whoredom rife —an axe age, a sword age —shields are riven— a wind age, a wolf age— A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down quote:There is no moral reason to be a good person, other than the innate moral goodness of it.
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Nov 30, 2015 19:34
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Ynglaur posted:I think Tolkien was heavily influenced by Germanic and Norse mythology, and those traditions are even bleaker still: at Ragnarok, evil is essentially destined to win. There is no moral reason to be a good person, other than the innate moral goodness of it. Galadriel's lament / exhortation that "...together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat," is very telling. Tolkien takes the old tradition, however, and gives it the glimmer of Christian hope: we're all doomed in the end, except for the eucatastrophic intervention of God. What struck me about the Children of Hurin though is that it's essentially the Middle-Earth version of the Book of Job, specifically the Judeo-Christian conundrum that if God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, then why do bad things happen to good people. Even if God's plan prevails in the long term, it seems to be little solace to those in the here and now that have to eat poo poo. And unlike Christianity and even Judaism, Tolkien's mythology is purposely vague on the fate of Human souls after death and there's no definitive statement that "After the End Times everyone comes back to life now that things are great again." (not counting the Final Battle that he later abandoned) I'm not saying its a bad story or that its somehow out of place. In fact, I'd guess that as a theologian himself Tolkien probably put a lot of thought on the questions left by his religion, which would have given the impetus to complete Hurin's story as opposed to other stories of the First Age.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:07
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I think Tolkien wanted to make his stories compatible with his Catholic beliefs, at least in emotional terms if not literal reality, but without making them allegories like Lewis did. I imagine this is why he focused a lot on elves (who had their own parallel theological/existential challenges) or hobbits (who are bucolic idiots), so he could avoid having heavy focus on the underlying realities that would come up from either focusing on humanity (who would have some kind of theological belief or at least speculation of same) or Gandalf, who is essentially a minor angel. Of course, in a sense Elves wouldn't have any reason to have religion - at least the Noldor. Galadriel had quite literally seen the Valar with her own eyes and had probably chatted with them at length, and probably there were various other Noldor hanging around with similar stories. If nothing else it would make it hard to seriously distort observations on the nature of the Valar, since you'd have an eye-witness on hand.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:20
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Nessus posted:or hobbits (who are bucolic idiots)
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Dec 1, 2015 00:32
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Dec 1, 2015 11:52
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Friar John posted:Saruman, I thought you were a mere spirit of ill-will after Wormtongue killed you! Nice to know you can type on the internet now. Has anyone ever tried to explain what's wrong with a nice deep dungeon? Surely the Numenoreans would have had use for one, even if Saruman himself never had the time to get round to digging one out.
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Dec 1, 2015 13:23
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Saruman thought Gandalf needed a broader perspective. And he's prone to taking things too literally, what with all the cogs, gears, and smoke in his mind. 
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Dec 1, 2015 13:32
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Trin Tragula posted:Has anyone ever tried to explain what's wrong with a nice deep dungeon? Surely the Numenoreans would have had use for one, even if Saruman himself never had the time to get round to digging one out.
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Dec 1, 2015 15:55
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If I wanted to collect this particular printing of The History of Middle Earth: Is there a good way to go about it? Amazon has like 30 different versions and editions listed, and its really hard to track down this particular design.
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Dec 2, 2015 20:22
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Trin Tragula posted:Has anyone ever tried to explain what's wrong with a nice deep dungeon? Surely the Numenoreans would have had use for one, even if Saruman himself never had the time to get round to digging one out. Later on, in Moria, Gandalf uses a spell to keep a door closed against the Balrog. Probably he could also use a spell to blow open the door of a dungeon cell. He can't fly on his own, though.
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Dec 3, 2015 08:52
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Could Smaugh's fire melted the Ring of Power?
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Dec 4, 2015 00:47
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Your Gay Uncle posted:Could Smaugh's fire melted the Ring of Power? Gandalf, Fellowship I.2 posted:It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. Some of the other rings were destroyed by old dragons, but none could destroy the One, for Sauron was older and more powerful than the dragons, especially before his death in Numenor, which weakened him.
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Dec 4, 2015 00:53
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Kassad posted:Later on, in Moria, Gandalf uses a spell to keep a door closed against the Balrog. Probably he could also use a spell to blow open the door of a dungeon cell. He can't fly on his own, though. The Balrog uses a counter-spell to force the door open (the door can't take the strain of the two competing spells and bursts into pieces), so that's definitely a thing that Can Happen.
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Dec 4, 2015 01:01
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When the Sons of Feanor attack Sirion is it just the seven of them or do they have followers?
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Dec 4, 2015 13:01
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so tell me about how Tolkien was a reactionary anti-modernist right winger who longed for the days of medieval Catholic theocracy and landed aristocracy
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Dec 4, 2015 22:56
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icantfindaname posted:so tell me about how Tolkien was a reactionary anti-modernist right winger who longed for the days of medieval Catholic theocracy and landed aristocracy Well start with reading the lord of the Rings.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:30
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Anarcho-monarchy 4 lyfe
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Dec 5, 2015 00:31
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Baron Porkface posted:When the Sons of Feanor attack Sirion is it just the seven of them or do they have followers? When was this. After the fall of Gondolin right? Oh spoilers. Gondolin gets wrecked.
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Dec 5, 2015 02:24
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Baron Porkface posted:When the Sons of Feanor attack Sirion is it just the seven of them or do they have followers?
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Dec 5, 2015 03:04
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icantfindaname posted:so tell me about how Tolkien was a reactionary anti-modernist right winger who longed for the days of medieval Catholic theocracy and landed aristocracy The Belgian posted:Anarcho-monarchy 4 lyfe
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Dec 5, 2015 06:36
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euphronius posted:When was this. After the fall of Gondolin right? It was at like the way end I thought, after Morgoth got boned.
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Dec 5, 2015 22:00
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Trin Tragula posted:Has anyone ever tried to explain what's wrong with a nice deep dungeon? Surely the Numenoreans would have had use for one, even if Saruman himself never had the time to get round to digging one out. There were vast works under the tower. Full of orcs doing orky things.
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Dec 9, 2015 17:28
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I know that the movies are a bit divisive, but can we all agree that the soundtrack is great? I read the Lord of the Rings and I hear the soundtrack in my head even though I don't picture Viggo Mortensen and pals as their characters. except Saruman. Christopher Lee is Saruman 
Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 06:13
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Most of the movie depictions have taken permanent residence in my imagination...but the hobbits are never tubby enough.
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Dec 29, 2015 06:18
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Hogge Wild posted:why are americans obsessed with happy endings Cause the world is already too depressing as it is, don't really want it leaching over into my fiction as well jivjov posted:If I wanted to collect this particular printing of The History of Middle Earth: I'd be interested in that as well jivjov posted:Most of the movie depictions have taken permanent residence in my imagination...but the hobbits are never tubby enough. I appreciate the movie depictions but definitely prefer a lot of the pre-movie interpretations in art, and a couple post-movie concepts as well
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Dec 29, 2015 06:51
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jivjov posted:If I wanted to collect this particular printing of The History of Middle Earth: Fun story - I got that edition of The Lays of Beleriand when I was about 11, because I thought it was going to be a bunch of maps. Turns out I seriously misunderstood what "lays" meant. It wasn't like "lay of the land" at all. I ended up never managing to read it, and now I can't find it anywhere. I'd like to track it down again one day, though.
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Dec 29, 2015 10:26
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jivjov posted:Most of the movie depictions have taken permanent residence in my imagination...but the hobbits are never tubby enough. It's my secret shame that I didn't read the book until after I saw the movies. This problem is what led me to not watch past the first Harry Potter movie.
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Dec 29, 2015 10:48
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The movies did a great job on like 90% of the imagery IMO probably because they pulled a lot of inspiration from previous art. I don't think Rohan looked how I envisioned it though and the river scene is definetely not as described but eh
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Dec 29, 2015 17:08
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I was always bugged by three things visually about the landscapes: 1) Rohan should have been a much smoother grassy plain, good for horses. As depicted it was so rocky the horses would have all run screaming for better pastures centuries ago 2) Anduin was nowhere near the size it should have been; I always pictured something Mississippi-wide 3) I wanted more topographical prominence on the Misty Mountains; like, you should have been able to see them looming in the distance from some low pastoral vantage point, instead of being a craggy no-man's-land that they gradually just sort of found themselves in But all that's down to New Zealand not having much of those kinds of landscapes to work with; and on the plus side it did have some other really important bits in spades, like Mount Doom and the Shire.
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Dec 29, 2015 17:26
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I still want to see Gandalf with eyebrows reaching to the brim of his hat.
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Dec 29, 2015 23:18
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And short! Something which stood out to me when returning to The Lord of the Rings after a long absence, during which I'd watched the films, is how few characters are considered Big People. When there's high snow drifts to carve a path through, it's just Aragorn and Boromir who handle it, while Gandalf is a haggard and bent old man and Legolas is merely an elf, probably not much taller than Gimli. (If that?)* McKellan and Mortensen are both, according to IMDb, 5'11". (Bloom as well, apparently.) The films did brilliant work with perspectives, but didn't take the extra step of figuring out everyone's relative heights. (As I recall, Rhys-Davies was just simply a head taller than all the Hobbit-actors, so they could use the same scaling factor for everyone.) * I know elves are allegedly tall, but I never notice any description of their appearance beyond "fair" and "beautiful" and "elvish" in general, with "strange-looking" for Legolas and "just like my beautiful wife" for
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Dec 30, 2015 02:51
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Lord of the Rings Online looks a lot more like how I imagined it should look than those movies. Except it needs more featureless plains. Landscape descriptions are the best part of Tolkien.
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Dec 30, 2015 02:55
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