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Helsing posted:I think part of the solution would be to, at the very least, have actually run on a concrete proposal for how you're going to change the electoral system. That would've been nice, because at least then we'd have had a binary choice between FPTP and Something Else. I agree with you that this idea sounded a lot better before we thought about what kind of planning should've gone on before the announcement, and now that he's got a mandate to deliver it he really needs to get going on figuring out what the hell he meant by it. But until he's announced the alternative plan, I'm not sure how much sense it makes for Ambrose to dig in her heels now and claim that they'll oppose all electoral reforms by hook or by crooks. FPTP is not a good system and it's definitely possible to improve on it. If he comes up with something objectively better she's going to look like a giant idiot. quote:Changing the system yourself and then calling an election is dubious for many reasons: first of all, if your opponents are claiming that you just rigged the system, and then you win, then how legitimate will that victory appear in the eyes of the people who didn't want the system in the first place? Second of all, if the opposition party wins then what do they do, reform the electoral system again and then immediately call another election? Hopefully both of these things don't happen at once  Opponents are going to say he rigged the system to benefit the Liberals no matter what he comes up with because that's what we expect politicians to do, it's what's in his own best interests to do, and whatever new system he implements won't be understood (or will be deliberately misinterpreted) by the people who've already made up their minds that they don't like it because it says Liberal on it. He's going to have a hard time convincing us otherwise. If a new system-then-election brought some other party to power, that party could say that they were elected by a fair system that should've elected them the first time and that they're quite content to leave it at that. quote:Personally I'd be able to reconcile myself with the Liberals unilaterally imposing a mixed member proportional system unilaterally for what are basically realpolitik reasons, but let's not pretend there's nothing sketchy about using the outcome of a broken system to claim the democratic mandate to reform that very same system. quote:It may be that the safest option for Trudeau is to emulate the Ontario Liberals in 2007: make a proposal and then quietly do everything in your power to ensure it fails, but even that option will presumably alienate some of Trudeau's support. 
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Dec 31, 2015 23:08
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Barick Gold founder admits to overdonating to the Conservatives in three seperate elections
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Dec 31, 2015 23:22
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They the ones pushing people out of helicopters? I mix up all my criminal canadian mining companies up.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:25
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Baronjutter posted:They the ones pushing people out of helicopters? I mix up all my criminal canadian mining companies up. That was Bre-X I believe.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:31
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bunnyofdoom posted:Barick Gold founder admits to overdonating to the Conservatives in three seperate elections OMG this is huge. quote:In total, he donated $2,950 more than the law allowed to riding associations in Ontario and Quebec represented by Conservative cabinet ministers as well as to a Conservative candidate's campaign in Toronto
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Jan 1, 2016 04:10
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Baronjutter posted:They the ones pushing people out of helicopters? I mix up all my criminal canadian mining companies up. I think they just do the boring old expropriating the land of poors, dumping toxic sludge into their waterways, hiring them at pitiful wages if at all, recruiting mercenaries to beat/maim/kill anyone who utters a peep of protest and bribing local police/courts kind of thing.
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Jan 1, 2016 05:27
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Ikantski posted:OMG this is huge. Hmph. Obviously his toilet roll got switched with his political donation packet. Easy mistake to make when you're that rich.
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Jan 1, 2016 05:43
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Happy New Year (Eastern time) Canpol goons! May the new year bring us real change (tm) as we move away from poutinechat and beerchat and the Conservative leadership race hopefully brings us a few laughs.
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Jan 1, 2016 06:10
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Nine of Eight posted:Happy New Year (Eastern time) Canpol goons! May the new year bring us real change (tm) as we move away from poutinechat and beerchat and the Conservative leadership race hopefully brings us a few laughs. I want the Conservative leadership race to have 25 candidates, because the party imploded and the power vacuum created by Harper's departure will bring the knives out in droves. Also, I want one of them to be Doug Ford, so we can have our own Donald Trump.
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Jan 1, 2016 07:39
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As we head into 2016 and the economy starts tanking, I look forward to Canadians showing their true colors and revealing how they really feel about syrian refugees. Oh but we're better than Americans right? There's nothing like a little personal bankruptcy to bring out the hate crimes
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Jan 1, 2016 07:55
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As the new year rolls around I remember the joy that is family, and my brother in law's comments about how Canadian media is biased against Trump. And the fact that my family is more supportive of Trump than that from what I've gathered. gently caress Alberta sometimes.Cultural Imperial posted:As we head into 2016 and the economy starts tanking, I look forward to Canadians showing their true colors and revealing how they really feel about syrian refugees. Oh but we're better than Americans right? There's nothing like a little personal bankruptcy to bring out the hate crimes Personal bankruptcy - a return to the dark old days in Alberta :/
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Jan 1, 2016 08:09
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Cultural Imperial posted:As we head into 2016 and the economy starts tanking, I look forward to Canadians showing their true colors and revealing how they really feel about syrian refugees. Oh but we're better than Americans right? There's nothing like a little personal bankruptcy to bring out the hate crimes Canadians are not shy about telling you how they feel about Syrian refugees if you open up any comments section under any story about anything related to refugees or Justin Trudeau in general (Jihad Justin, as he's known. Sunni Ways, my friends, Sunni Ways). The worst I'll bet we see is some racist spray paint or some rocks thrown through mosque windows. Maybe something to do with bacon. These will all be called false flags, by the way.
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Jan 1, 2016 08:26
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I'm waiting for the Hindu temple down the street from me to be spray painted with some anti-Muslim nonsense.
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Jan 1, 2016 08:29
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Cultural Imperial posted:As we head into 2016 and the economy starts tanking, I look forward to Canadians showing their true colors and revealing how they really feel about syrian refugees. I'm not concerned. Even here in New Bumpkinland for every asshat with a very serious opinion about brown people there were four or five people telling them to shut the gently caress up. Wake me up when we get our Donald Trump.
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Jan 1, 2016 12:20
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Cultural Imperial posted:As we head into 2016 and the economy starts tanking, I look forward to Canadians showing their true colors and revealing how they really feel about syrian refugees. ... because racist xenophobes are showing such restraint so far. EDIT -- unless by "hate crime" you actually mean an all caps rant on the CBC site about censorship and how "the narrative" isn't allowing a hick from Alberta to express his true feelings about people who aren't white. That will definitely be on the rise. Somebody should make a SunMedia keyboard for this sort of thing. It sends all characters in all caps, and there are hotkeys for "false flag", "the narrative", and "jihad justin". Instead of an enter key it says "TRUTH BOMB" and the whole thing flashes blue constantly in order to induce seizures. InfiniteZero fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 1, 2016 |
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Jan 1, 2016 17:22
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Helsing posted:I think the magnitude of the Liberal's recent victory has distracted us from how generally shaky Trudeau II's leadership and judgement have actually been since he became Liberal leader. Remember that he threw away a very solid lead and only clawed it back late in the race by engaging in some very, ahem, ambitious promises and some rather abrupt pivots on policy and rhetoric. : As opposed to the stellar leadership moves of Harper, Mulcair, Duceppe and May over the same time frame which won them so many seats.
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Jan 1, 2016 18:07
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Helsing posted:Yeah but the problem is that the Liberals will almost certainly try to get an IRV ballot. At this point I think it's more likely that they'll go along with the idea of a referendum and let it fail. They don't particularly need to risk the terrible optics of what is objectively a power grab for the Liberals, and I'd be floored if they voluntarily gave up power by proposing some form of PR.
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Jan 1, 2016 18:50
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Heavy neutrino posted:At this point I think it's more likely that they'll go along with the idea of a referendum and let it fail. They don't particularly need to risk the terrible optics of what is objectively a power grab for the Liberals, and I'd be floored if they voluntarily gave up power by proposing some form of PR. Remember though that a PR system also benefits the Liberals because it's highly likely that they would be one of the largest parties in Parliament after any given election and as the centrist party they're likely to be everyone's first choice coalition partner. With our current party setup (that is, assuming no major party changes for the moment) the Conservatives are highly unlikely to get a majority in PR and are also unlikely to form a coalition with the NDP, Bloc, or Greens, which leaves a Liberal/Conservative coalition. Alternately, the Liberals could be the largest party and have their pick of partners. Or in the unlikely event that the NDP somehow got the most seats, they're unlikely to form a coalition with the Cons and it's unlikely that they, the Bloc, and the Greens together make it to 50%. PR could also guarantee a permanent Liberal government just like AV/IRV, with the difference that it would be as part of a coalition rather than ruling on their own outright. Don't dismiss it as something they wouldn't want so quickly.
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Jan 1, 2016 19:16
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Heavy neutrino posted:At this point I think it's more likely that they'll go along with the idea of a referendum and let it fail. They don't particularly need to risk the terrible optics of what is objectively a power grab for the Liberals, and I'd be floored if they voluntarily gave up power by proposing some form of PR. I would similarly be surprised if the Liberals tried to push proportional representation. The funny thing about PR is that most of the scholarly work done on this topic shows that it, historically, has only been implemented in cases where labour parties were in a position to be elected to majority government. Here, conservative parties would push for this electoral system in order to keep labour from being able to pass reforms - the criticism that PR makes it difficult for governments to pass legislation was actually a feature, not a bug. It did mean that labour had a permanent seat in government, but it was worth it to conservatives at the time. After all, most of the adoption of PR among nations was around the turn of the 20th century, when socialist revolutions were perceived as a real threat. Manitoba and Alberta adopted proportional representation in the years following the Winnipeg general strike of 1919, so we're also a part of that. The fact that left-leaning parties now push for PR is more of a sign of how diminished the labour movement has become in the last century. Gorewar fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 1, 2016 |
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Jan 1, 2016 19:33
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Rust Martialis posted:As opposed to the stellar leadership moves of Harper, Mulcair, Duceppe and May over the same time frame which won them so many seats. First of all, running a good campaign is not the same thing as exercising good leadership. Based on their records so far I would say that yes, Harper, and probably also Mulcair, are better 'leaders' in many of the traditional senses than Trudeau is. That's just my shoot-from-the-hip judgement but given Trudeau's (lack of) judgement when it came to handling stuff like the Liberal senators, Eve Adams, etc. I don't think it's a ridiculous statement. Of course even if we say Trudeau's the equal or superior of those clowns, that's kind of like saying that the one eyed man rules the kingdom of the blind. It's damning him with faint praise. Canadian politics is a clownshow right now. Governments tend to defeat themselves and the opposition defaults into power by running the campaign with the fewest screw ups. Trudeau has some talent for retail politics, just like Harper was good at maintaining party discipline and Mulcair is a great parliamentarian, but overall I can't think of a single Canadian politician who really stands out as a brilliant political operator. They're all pretty drat mediocre.
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Jan 1, 2016 21:02
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Helsing posted:First of all, running a good campaign is not the same thing as exercising good leadership. Running bad campaigns, however, seems to be a stern handicap to exercising good leadership. Bad campaigning seems to be a recent *requirement* (post-St. Jack that is) to lead the NDP in most elections, federal, provincial or Toronto mayoral.
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Jan 1, 2016 22:11
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Rust Martialis posted:the NDP in most elections, federal, provincial or Toronto mayoral. Their failures at each of those levels (in Ontario) appear largely identical. Absolutely uninspiring campaigns based on a platform and message of "moderation", fiscal restraint, and to some extent pocketbook populism. It turns out, to the extent that people want anything like that, they'll vote Liberal (or equivalent) to get it.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:25
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Failing to find traction in a post-con world, and with the collapse of Sun News and being fired from HuffPo, JJ McCullough comes out as retiring on his FB:JJ McCullough posted:2015 was a pretty anti-climactic year for me. Good Riddance.
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Jan 2, 2016 02:04
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It was discussed much earlier in this thread that the NDP's policies around taxation are different from otherwise similar European left wing parties. Recently the NDP has supported higher corporate taxes, low small business taxes and in this most recent election the party didn't support personal income tax increases, with Mulcair calling tax rates above 50% "confiscation." With the NDP failing federally and in Ontario and BC I would think there's an argument to be made that this approach is simply not appealing to enough people. Are there any MPs or groups within the NDP that are advocating starkly different policy directions? For example the Nordic Model?
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Jan 2, 2016 02:34
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Femtosecond posted:It was discussed much earlier in this thread that the NDP's policies around taxation are different from otherwise similar European left wing parties. Recently the NDP has supported higher corporate taxes, low small business taxes and in this most recent election the party didn't support personal income tax increases, with Mulcair calling tax rates above 50% "confiscation." With the NDP failing federally and in Ontario and BC I would think there's an argument to be made that this approach is simply not appealing to enough people. Are there any MPs or groups within the NDP that are advocating starkly different policy directions? For example the Nordic Model? If there are theyve been muzzled. Or run out of the party. Dewar and Leslie both decided to walk away from politics (basically the party) after their losses and I have a feeling its because they no longer share the same ideals and political opinions as the current stupid party leads have. Cant blame them either.
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Jan 2, 2016 03:31
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Rime posted:Failing to find traction in a post-con world, and with the collapse of Sun News and being fired from HuffPo, JJ McCullough comes out as retiring on his FB: quote:I also find myself growing more and more tired of politics, particularly Canadian politics. As a conservative, I think the appropriate role for government and politics is at the margins of life, and yet I have allowed an obsession with both to consume too much of mine. A life overly concerned with politics is a life consumed by a lot of unpleasant, negative emotions and an identity defined by controversy and divisiveness. I think that will be more the case now that my party is out of power, and it's a temptation that concerns me. People always say "you must be excited at all the material you'll have now that Trudeau's in charge" but I'm really not. This is some good self reflection that lots of people who care a lot about politics should probably do once in a while.
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Jan 2, 2016 03:34
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Yeah it's probably good for him. I used to care a lot more about politics back when I thought I had a horse in the race and there was hope for the world and would get emotionally invested in every election on every level. Now I hate all the parties and see the world and system as unsalvageable and hopeless. But at the end of the day my actions aren't any different. I still vote for who I hate the least, I still try to do what ever is in my power to make the world a better place, I'm just not expecting anything. Just do your best to be a good person, stay involved, but don't obsess or invest your emotions and self-identity in politics.
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Jan 2, 2016 03:45
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It cracks me up that such a raging conservative rear end in a top hat like jj is a flaming homosexual.
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Jan 2, 2016 04:50
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Cultural Imperial posted:It cracks me up that such a raging conservative rear end in a top hat like jj is a flaming homosexual. If nothing else he's living breathing proof that formerly oppressed minorities have no inherent allegiance to liberal politics. Once the political consensus accepts a minority like gay people, they're open to be just as lovely as everyone else.
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Jan 2, 2016 16:00
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vyelkin posted:If nothing else he's living breathing proof that formerly oppressed minorities have no inherent allegiance to liberal politics. Once the political consensus accepts a minority like gay people, they're open to be just as lovely as everyone else. Especially when you're a conservative, a currently oppressed minority.
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Jan 2, 2016 16:18
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Ikantski posted:Especially when you're a conservative, a currently oppressed minority. There are people who actually believe this despite 9 years of Conservative Party government. It might even be true, except conservatives actually earned our ire and the Irish can't help being what they are.
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Jan 2, 2016 16:24
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Kafka Esq. posted:There are people who actually believe this despite 9 years of Conservative Party government. It might even be true, except conservatives actually earned our ire and the Irish can't help being what they are. Oh, I see how it is. 
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Jan 2, 2016 18:11
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Kafka Esq. posted:There are people who actually believe this despite 9 years of Conservative Party government. It might even be true, except conservatives actually earned our ire and the Irish can't help being what they are. Like Fletcher on "The House" this morning. "Harper will be judged as Canada's greatest prime minister. The Conservative defeat was due to an "irrational" hatred of Harper among the electorate that wasn't countered properly during the election." I feel like someone is trying to use a Jedi mind trick on me. Defeat has not raised the collective IQ of the Conservative caucus. gently caress them and the horses they rode in on.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:02
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They keep insisting it was only tone and the fact they were in for.9 years leading to fatigue. Not their policies.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:20
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The Conservatives are currently trying to hold onto their core supporters. The Conservative party, as it exists today, doesn't have very much experience as an opposition party facing a majority government. They'll have to rely on Conservative partisans for support and throwing the only Conservative leader to get elected since the 1980s under the bus would not help that goal. From the Conservatives perspective, the best time to adopt a new and friendlier face is after the leadership race and closer to the election. It'd be very hard to change strategies without a new leader and team anyway, and doing so might further alienate die hard Conservative partisans who are more valuable than ever right now. Which is to say: we probably won't know for a couple years at least just what lessons the Conservatives have derived from their recent defeat. The kind of wagon circling they're doing right now isn't as irrational as it looks. Once they've licked their wounds and gotten a better grasp on what kind of government Trudeau will run then they'll probably start to give us a better indication of what kind of campaign they'll end up running in 2019ish.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:51
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Trude's riding on a wave of optimism right now, even people who didn't vote for him are breathing a sigh of relief that Harper is gone. But nothing really bad has happened yet, there's nothing to attack and any attacks now just look like partisan sour grapes. The conservatives will jump on the first major problems Canada has in the coming years hard though. The moment a single refugee so much as jay-walks we're going to be hearing about sharia traffic laws. The moment people start to seriously worry about their housing equity things are going to get vicious. I could see us getting a conservative government next election if there's any major downswing in housing. Pin all the gains of the housing bubble on strong proven conservative economic policies and its downturn or crash on liberal economic mismanagement. How can this man be playing his fiddle about legalizing dangerous drugs and housing dangerous ISIS hoards or meddling wit our sacred democratic system while AVERAGE CANADIANS are seeing their equity and chance of retirement ruined??? Canadians will vote for what ever party promises to maintain their housing values regardless of any other issue.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:28
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The public also seems to have a bit of a love-hate relationship with Trudeau. He was wildly popular, then managed to cement the perception he was a lightweight doofus, then by exceeding the expectations that he (and his opponents) had set for himself he became very popular again. The whole cycle could repeat itself. As I was saying the other day any attempt to reform the electoral system is going to be massively complicated, very controversial, and most likely will create extreme bitterness whether it succeeds or fails. Just on its own it would represent an absolutely enormous legacy for any Prime Minister: the fact it's being promised in Trudeau's first term, when he still has all kinds of other agenda items to take care of, is remarkable. I doubt we ever would have seen such an ambitious promise if not for the fact that the Liberals were literally fighting for their lives in 2015. The housing bubble -- or more generally our weak economy, over leveraged consumers and spendthrift private sector -- is obviously a wild card but a bad economic collapse doesn't automatically spell doom for the incumbent government. We've got plenty of examples, from Franklin D. Roosevelt down to Kathleen Wynne, of incumbent political leaders surviving re-election despite being in office during an economic downturn. I think it really comes down to questions such as: how bad does the rest of the world look, what is the opposition proposing, what is the exact timing of the crisis in relation to the election, etc.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:54
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Furnaceface posted:Oh, I see how it is. It's easier to see how it is when the glass of Guiness is empty.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:02
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Also, largely unrelated, and this is from a column that mostly deals with foreign policy, but I feel like the following paragraph has describes Canada:quote:Unsurprisingly, we witness, as Judt pointed out, “no external inputs, no new kinds of people, only the political class breeding itself”. “The old ways of mass movements, communities organised around an ideology, even religious or political ideas, trade unions and political parties to leverage public opinion into political influence” have disappeared. Indeed, the slightest reminder of this democratic past incites the technocrats of politics, business and the media into paroxysms of scorn. I might not say that there are literally no external inputs or that organized communities have zero impact on policy (I think I've set my opinions on that out at rather tedious length in previous threads). At least at the margins it is possible for organized groups to shift political outcomes (less so in foreign affairs, the primary topic of the article I'm quoting) but the basic message here is alarmingly on point: our elites are more insulated from popular pressure than they have been in a long time and it's giving them license to destroy the country. The last generation or two of western leadership has been amongst the worst in history. At this rate the institutional reforms, widespread prosperity and accumulated freedoms that have been won through popular struggle since the Eighteenth Century are all going to be washed away in another generation or two.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:08
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Canadians have a strong history of narrow-minded, selfish, kneejerk reactionism to economic downturns which will breed brand bitterness for multiple generations however. One need only look at how the NDP is blamed to this day in BC for "creating" what was a national economic struggle through the 1990's, rather than lauded for weathering the storm and trying desperate measures (fast ferries) to keep key industries from ceasing to exist. If their first term is as bad as (or worse than) the Debt Bubble Thread foresees for the country then I expect the Liberals will probably be eradicated as a federal party permanently, despite the causes being mostly out of their control as a mixture of prior government failures and global market circumstances. Not to mention the large amount of personal culpability from average individuals when their situations become dire, which will never be admitted by anyone. As I quipped to a friend "Try getting your average Canadian to understand the preschool simple concept of Saudi Arabian control over oil prices".
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Jan 2, 2016 21:08
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