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waitwhatno posted:There are sects/denominations of Islam that are totally fine with gays. I remember that because they got lovely death threats from some fundamentalist shitheads and it was all over the news. I don't remember what they are called, but you can probably google it. There is nothing magic or exceptional about Islam and their hate of gays, compared to other religions. That's not what the Muslims in the thread are saying, though. They're saying it's always sin. People might "look the other way" but it's still sin and against sharia in any form -- is this incorrect? Because that's what the past page seems to have said. So it is, in fact, unique if compared to, say, Christianity which offers believers an easy "out" in the form of the old and new covenants. "Oh, yeah, the anti-gay stuff is all Old Testament and Jesus came by and said that we have a new law and don't need to worry about that any more" is the moderate Christian response. Do you see the difference? ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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ashgromnies posted:That's not what the Muslims in the thread are saying, though. They're saying it's always sin. People might "look the other way" but it's still sin and against sharia in any form -- is this incorrect? Because that's what the past page seems to have said. Yes, you are correct. It is a sin, and it is against sharia, but most Muslims look the other way. The rest of them are assholes.
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Dec 30, 2015 16:29
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ashgromnies posted:That's not what the Muslims in the thread are saying, though. They're saying it's always sin. People might "look the other way" but it's still sin and against sharia in any form -- is this incorrect? Because that's what the past page seems to have said. Well, the three muslims in this thread are not the only muslims in the world. There are some muslims who say that it is not a sin. (probably a tiny, tiny minority) quote:So it is, in fact, unique if compared to, say, Christianity which offers believers an easy "out" in the form of the old and new covenants. "Oh, yeah, the anti-gay stuff is all Old Testament and Jesus came by and said that we have a new law and don't need to worry about that any more" is the moderate Christian response. Do you see the difference? You picked a pretty bad example here, because only a minority of Christians believe that the Old Testament is no longer binding. For most Christians it is still the law of god (how much of it, depends on the denomination/sect). Look, this poo poo ain't magic. You either say that the rules in the Quran must always be considered in their historic context and that's how god intended for people to apply them, or you just lawyer your way out of it. Like, look at this: For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. It clearly speaks about not PREFERING butt sex with men, so it applies to a situation where you already have sex with women. It's obviously a passage about not neglectin your womin' and denying her marital rights to her and not making children with her. If you never have sex with chicks, you are not PREFERING a men and you are totally fine to have butt sex with your boyfriend. - The Imam waitwhatno, on the Something Awful Forums
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Dec 30, 2015 17:13
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waitwhatno posted:Look, this poo poo ain't magic. You either say that the rules in the Quran must always be considered in their historic context and that's how god intended for people to apply them, or you just lawyer your way out of it. Yeah. Rules in the Quran must always be considered in their historic context. Homosexual activity is a sin, and if caught, the parties involved must repent or be punished. In short, don't have buttsex, don't have sex with your girlfriend, don't cheat on your wife. It's easy enough to understand, isn't it?
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Dec 30, 2015 17:45
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Zakmonster posted:Yes. Humans are weak and we will sin. God can forgive those sins, so why can't we? What gives us the right to judge other people, knowing that our own lives are not perfect? Zakmonster posted:No, you still don't get it. It's like eating pork or drinking beer. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but God says no because I want the Muslim society to be this specific way, so don't do it. And all though we can all agree that bacon is awesome and there's nothing wrong with a couple of drinks after work, I have never done either of those things because God forbade me from doing it. The same for gay/premarital/extramarital sex. It's a fun activity, but God says no.
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Dec 30, 2015 17:53
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Cingulate posted:Forgive you can only what needs to be forgiven. I can't forgive gay sex because I don't think gay sex is bad. I can forgive you insulting me though (if it bothered me in the first place). I don't think gay sex is bad either, but I do think that disobeying God's laws are bad. And to say I 'forgive you your sins' is inaccurate. All I'm saying is that I'm not gonna make a huge deal about it, because your sins and your life is between you and God, and unless it interferes with my life, I've got no horse in the race. Also, I did not realize I inadvertently insulted you. I apologize. Cingulate posted:In typical deist ethics, the moral perspective of God is cointensional with the good. That is, the moral good is by its nature identical with god's will. God willing it is what makes something good in the first place. So you're professing a to me surprising perspective - where god's will can disagree with objective morals. I've never looked at it that way, but yeah, I can agree with that. In fact, it makes perfect sense to me. Human morality isn't the same as God's morality. This does not make God 'wrong', it just makes God different. Of course he's different. And because, as a Muslim, I submit to God's will and judgment, I try my best to follow His morality.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:21
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Cingulate posted:In typical deist ethics, the moral perspective of God is cointensional with the good. That is, the moral good is by its nature identical with god's will. God willing it is what makes something good in the first place. So you're professing a to me surprising perspective - where god's will can disagree with objective morals. The belief that god's will = what's right, and may not also = human morality, isn't a particularly Islamic thing, it should be noted. Many Christians will say that god's command for Abraham to kill his son Isaac, had it been carried out, would have been a moral action, because if it's god's command, it's automatically good. It's formally called divine command theory, and guys like Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine have argued in its favour.
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Dec 30, 2015 18:46
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waitwhatno posted:Well, the three muslims in this thread are not the only muslims in the world. There are some muslims who say that it is not a sin. (probably a tiny, tiny minority) Are you a Muslim? You keep appealing to authority but haven't posted any imams that agree with your viewpoint and the self-identified Muslims in the thread contradict what you're saying.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:09
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ashgromnies posted:Are you a Muslim? You keep appealing to authority but haven't posted any imams that agree with your viewpoint and the self-identified Muslims in the thread contradict what you're saying. If you spend a couple seconds on google you will find multiple pro-gay Islamic scholars, Islamic pro-LGBT groups, gay Imams and whatever else you need. I'm sure as hell not gonna assemble a comprehensive list for you here, it's not like you give a poo poo or even gonna read it. 
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Dec 30, 2015 23:11
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Lassitude posted:The belief that god's will = what's right, and may not also = human morality, isn't a particularly Islamic thing, it should be noted. Many Christians will say that god's command for Abraham to kill his son Isaac, had it been carried out, would have been a moral action, because if it's god's command, it's automatically good. It's formally called divine command theory, and guys like Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine have argued in its favour. Zakmonster posted:I don't think gay sex is bad either, but I do think that disobeying God's laws are bad. And to say I 'forgive you your sins' is inaccurate. All I'm saying is that I'm not gonna make a huge deal about it, because your sins and your life is between you and God, and unless it interferes with my life, I've got no horse in the race. I'm still not sure how you're positioning god's morals vs "inherent moral". Again, if the two may differ, that means God could want something that is inherently wrong. In the case, what is better about God than just being a particularly powerful tyrant, one whose power to punish and torture you extents even beyond death? If God had somehow commanded "murder all the red haired guys", would it be just? Of course not. And the typical argument would be, the nature of God is so that his will is cointensional with the good, so it is guaranteed, by definition, that he will not make arbitrary commands that go against the real ethics. But it seems in your case, God can make arbitrary demands, such as proclaiming that while they do not actually do anything intrinsically bad, he kind of just doesn't like the gays, so there, gay guys, don't gently caress the person you truly love or I will not only command that you shall be punished brutally in those parts of this world that are particularly observant of my will, but I will also keep open the option of torturing you for all of eternity. Just because. (Maybe I'll be merciful. Let's see.) Not because what you do is intrinsically bad, but simply because I just so happen to not like the thing I made you require to fulfill your love. Kind of a dick move, isn't it?
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Dec 30, 2015 23:48
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waitwhatno posted:If you spend a couple seconds on google you will find multiple pro-gay Islamic scholars, Islamic pro-LGBT groups, gay Imams and whatever else you need. I'm sure as hell not gonna assemble a comprehensive list for you here, it's not like you give a poo poo or even gonna read it. You're a dick. I have been reading everything posted in this thread and calling out islamopobic jackasses when they roll in. I am interested in what the actual Muslims answering questions for us here think is a good, representative argument, and which religious officials they respect. I know I can use Google, but why even have this thread if we should just search there? Having a personal conversation with an expert can give a more unique/accurate perspective than finding whatever Google decides to return you. ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Dec 31, 2015 |
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Dec 31, 2015 01:21
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I'm not Muslim, but it's weird to me that people are hung up on the "how can you say you accept it while saying gay sex is a sin" thing, but ignoring the "sex outside of marriage of any kind is a sin" part. I mean, I don't think anybody would expect the posters here to hate/disown on their kid having sex with their opposite-gender girlfriend or boyfriend, even though god doesn't like it because it's outside of marriage, would they? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like they're at the same level in terms of god-being-pissed. Also, "handicapped" is a loaded word because of the negative connotations, but it seems like in general the idea is "If god gave you a thing from birth that makes it hard to be a good Muslim as laid down in the Qu'ran, you get a little slack on it because god realizes it's harder for you." Assuming you take the stance of Homosexuality being a natural instead of learned trait, then it makes sense to me that god would probably cut you some slack for getting your gay-bone on too.  To be clear though, gently caress organized religion's treatment of homosexuality throughout history. Lots of hate gets spread using religion as an excuse, and that's not cool. I'm just saying it sounds like people are getting hung up on the whole "sin" thing, which seems to be held in a different light in Islam than in Christianity? E: Or at least the posters in here seem to hold it in a different light than when I've talked to Christians about it. surc fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Dec 31, 2015 |
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Dec 31, 2015 06:19
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surc posted:I'm not Muslim, but it's weird to me that people are hung up on the "how can you say you accept it while saying gay sex is a sin" thing, but ignoring the "sex outside of marriage of any kind is a sin" part. I think its because you can get married to solve the 'not having sex' issue, but you can't get gay-married to solve the 'not having gay sex' issue. I also know that there are sects of Muslims who are pro-gay marriage, and believe in love and acceptance, and all that jazz. I also know that there have been Muslim gay marriages (in France, I think?) and other places around the world, officiated by an imam. All of that is good and all, and more power to them. If my hypothetical gay child decided to subscribe to that sect of Islam, then more power to him. I will maintain that you can't have gay sex, but I'm not going to love my hypothetical child any less. Cingulate posted:that's why I wrote "in typical deist ethics". Or we could be the ones that are wrong. A large part of being Muslim is accepting that God knows better than you do because He's God and is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, etc. I know this is a major sticking point to atheist types; a lot of my good friends are atheists, and they have a hard time wrapping their heads around this. And yeah, God commands you to not have sex with the person you truly love. Any Muslim also understands that our time here is an eyeblink in comparison to the eternity of the Afterlife. I can't bang my husband/wife for 40-odd years? If I can make it through that, I can bang my husband/wife for eternity in heaven. a lot of people get hung up on the whole 'burn forever in Hell thing', but completely gloss over the 'enjoy eternity in Paradise' thing. This might just be because of the more liberal nature of Muslims in Singapore, but while I was growing up, most of the reinforcement was positive (do these things because it will let you go to Heaven), instead of negative (don't do this or you will be punished forever). So I've never really focused on not going to Hell, I've focused on going to Heaven (if that makes any sense to you). In any case, while there are Muslim nations that will punish gays for being gay, they only happen in countries where we all agree are pretty hosed up anyway, and there are a lot of social issues there beyond just the gay one. Besides, there is no clearly defined punishment for homosexuality in sharia law or the Quran AFAIK (which is a thing some scholars are still arguing about), so whatever 'brutal' punishments that do happen are completely man-made. In Indonesia, Turkey and Jordan, for instance, homosexuality is legal and socially accepted, so it's not like every Muslim nation is completely hosed when it comes to social issues. Although it is important to note that Indonesia and Turkey are secular governments. Also, God is always merciful. So long as you are sincere in your repentance, God will forgive. There's no 'maybe' about it.
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Dec 31, 2015 08:13
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I'm not sure what type of Muslims you all are, or if you even identify with one sect or not, but what do you think of the Ahmadiyya Movement? Do you consider them Muslims? They seem like a pretty cool group of folks but reading up on them, I wonder if other Muslims see them kinda like how Christians see Mormons. Or maybe it's more like how some Jews see the followers of the various professed Jewish Messiahs. It's just interesting to me because, as we all know, there are a lot of people out there professing to follow Islam who give it a bad name. But these guys seem very popular all over the world and seem to be doing good work and thus would give Islam a good name...but maybe other Muslims don't think of them as Islamic at all so it's kinda confusing to me. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Dec 31, 2015 |
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Dec 31, 2015 08:27
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm not sure what type of Muslims you all are, or if you even identify with one sect or not, but what do you think of the Ahmadiyya Movement? Do you consider them Muslims? They seem like a pretty cool group of folks but reading up on them, I wonder if other Muslims see them kinda like how Christians see Mormons. Or maybe it's more like how some Jews see the followers of the various professed Jewish Messiahs. I have never heard of them before, but they sound really sensible and appeals to my own perspectives and opinions. However, the whole 'our dude is also a prophet' doesn't fly with me, because Muhammad was the last prophet, end of story. I wouldn't call them un-Islamic, however. They still believe in Muhammad and God and they admit that their 'prophet' is not more important than Muhammad, so its not like they're practicing shirk. I just don't like applying the label of 'prophet' because there have been too many who've abused the label to mislead and take advantage of the gullible, especially here in South East Asia. Other than that, they seem like cool people. I think the main point is whether they pray to this Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (using him as a go-between to God), or whether they pray to God directly. The former is forbidden, the latter is the only way you should pray. A Muslim must direct all his prayers to God, because God is the only one with the power to help you. Even praying to Muhammad is forbidden, because Muhammad is just a man. In SEA, there have been many imams and other community leaders who have managed to mislead gullible people into doing the former. So long as the Ahmadiyya movement doesn't do this, I am cool with them and what they are trying to do.
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Dec 31, 2015 08:46
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Amun Khonsu posted:Well, considering that I have represented Islam on behalf of Islamic scholars from 3 major worldwide movements and organizations in the US in the media, universities, and law enforcement agencies, I'd say you are a little off base. But I am pixels to you and the internet is the great equalizer so believe what you want. It sounds like you are representing only a friendly view that would be palatable to Western liberals, not what is actually practiced.
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Dec 31, 2015 08:58
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Zakmonster posted:Also, God is always merciful. So long as you are sincere in your repentance, God will forgive. There's no 'maybe' about it. To me, it's always seemed like there would be a point where there's a certain innate lack of sincerity in the repentence. I mean, doesn't there come a point where God is like "Dude, you've hosed your boyfriend three times a week for the past year, I'm starting to think you're not really serious about this whole 'sorry for loving a dude I won't do it again' stuff." Or if it is possible to sincerely repent it, doesn't mean it's all sort of pointless? If he'll forgive Steve and Robert loving 3 times a week every week until their dicks stop working, doesn't that mean the only point of his prohibition is that he wants them to feel bad about doing it?
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Dec 31, 2015 09:01
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Maoist Pussy posted:It sounds like you are representing only a friendly view that would be palatable to Western liberals, not what is actually practiced. Well, do you think a Muslim would not think kindly of his religion or represent it in the best light? heh What I have represented here is in mainstream circles, leastways among Sunnis (87% of the Muslim population worldwide). In addition to my opinions that match, I have relayed to you conversations I have had with more "conservative" scholars (From US, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and India) and groups who I represented to non-Muslims groups and agencies in the US. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Dec 31, 2015 |
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Dec 31, 2015 09:36
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Khizan posted:To me, it's always seemed like there would be a point where there's a certain innate lack of sincerity in the repentence. Repentance also means you don't do it again.
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Dec 31, 2015 10:05
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Zakmonster posted:I think its because you can get married to solve the 'not having sex' issue, but you can't get gay-married to solve the 'not having gay sex' issue. The way you phrase it, you leave open the possibility that God could be wrong about morality - that there are, not fully overlapping, God's moral, and the inherent morality. If that is so, it seems God adds to what is moral his own preferences - such as, on at least one occasion, destroying men for having had sex with men - even though that is not inherently wrong.
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Dec 31, 2015 17:41
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Amun Khonsu posted:Well, do you think a Muslim would not think kindly of his religion or represent it in the best light? heh Somewhat worse than most other euro countries, in the mid-2000s, UK muslims to ~65% stated homosexuality should illegal.
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Dec 31, 2015 17:51
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Cingulate posted:It seems I've not made myself clear. You're asking me to consider that it is not I who is wrong, but God. I am saying: personally, I believe God is neither wrong nor right because he doesn't exist. But if I were a theist, I would assume it is by definition impossible to ever say "God wants something that is not inherently moral", that God is, not by accident and fact, but by definition, never wrong. I think the best way to clarify this issue is with this statement: we are wrong, God is right. Again, the implication isn't that God 'might be' wrong. The implication is that our 'objective morals' are probably wrong and that God knows better. This, however, doesn't mean that homosexuals are instantly 'wrong' or 'sinful'. They are just people. It is the act of having homosexual sex that is sin. I mean, I doubt any of us view consensual premarital sex between two or more people to be 'objectively immoral'. God forbids it anyway. God doesn't even allow more than two partners in the same bed, even if they were all married (a man and two of his wives, for instance), even though there is nothing objectively immoral about the act. Cingulate posted:I'd like to see some numbers on this - the only thing I can think of is that according to the Pew polls, upwards of 80% of muslims in every muslim country think society should not "accept homosexuality", whatever that means (Indonesia has 93% in agreement with that phrase). Indonesia Muslims can think whatever they want, their government legalized homosexuality since the 60s or something. Even though Indonesia is a majority Muslim country, they do not practice sharia law and there is a distinct separation between church and state. EDIT: On the other hand, Singapore still criminalizes homosexuality, which is a holdover from an archaic UK law which we took from our colonial days. There is a large and active movement to decriminalize it, and there are plenty of Muslims, Christians, and I assume Jewish people but I've never actually met any in Singapore, who actively support this movement. Zakmonster fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Dec 31, 2015 |
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Dec 31, 2015 22:44
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Cingulate posted:that's why I wrote "in typical deist ethics". Yeah, I saw that, but what does deism have to do with it? Zakmonster has made it fairly clear they are a Muslim. What does deist ethics have to do with it? Zakmonster posted:Lifestyle choice is incorrect. We understand that homosexuality isn't a choice. As such, their 'end game' is celibacy. It's tough, and it's not fair because God made you this way (if you're the type of Muslim who believes that), but God also made some people to have crippling physical or mental disabilities. Not everyone's life circumstances are equal, and the understanding is that the harder your 'test' in this world, the better your reward in the next. Has what Amun Khosu written changed your mind on this at all? How could Allah make people like X, and then create prohibitions against X? Or should homosexuals be allowed to engage in intercourse on account of their having been created as homosexuals, meaning the prohibition against their activites becomes less binding as it's a genetic "issue" as opposed to a lifestyle choice? Amun Khosu believes it must be a choice homosexuals make, and there must be a cure of some kind, because Allah wouldn't make people gay if being gay were disallowed. What are your thoughts on that? Lassitude fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jan 1, 2016 |
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Jan 1, 2016 00:30
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Lassitude posted:Yeah, I saw that, but what does deism have to do with it? Zakmonster has made it fairly clear they are a Muslim. What does deist ethics have to do with it? My thoughts is I don't know. I'm going to listen to actual gay people and trust them when they say it's not a choice or a 'disease'. And also, I don't know why He made people like X and created prohibitions against X. Maybe its a trial. Maybe He knows something we don't. Maybe it really is a choice and God can change your sexuality if you pray hard enough. Honestly I really don't. If homosexual Muslim decides that he doesn't have the strength to go without having sex, then maybe God will give him special dispensation, because of the way they're made. Again, I don't know.
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Jan 1, 2016 05:36
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If you're god isn't ok with 21st century, he's full of poo poo and you should change your god. Leave medieval cults to the medieval ages.
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Jan 1, 2016 06:30
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Hi op, whats an ishmali and where do they get their arab billions from?
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Jan 1, 2016 08:25
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I'm interested in the nature of Allah as a deity. Specifically, what are the differences between Islam and the other Abrahamic religions regarding the nature of God? It seems to me that the Christian God takes a far more active role in the world than that of either Islam or Judaism; is this correct? While there's obviously no trinity in Islam, to what extent is God's immanence emphasised? And how does this vary between different branches of Islam? In the interests of full disclosure, I ask because I consider myself a pantheist with perhaps some animist elements, and I'm interested in understanding how the Abrahamic religions relate God and the world.
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Jan 1, 2016 13:10
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Purple Prince posted:I'm interested in the nature of Allah as a deity. Specifically, what are the differences between Islam and the other Abrahamic religions regarding the nature of God? It seems to me that the Christian God takes a far more active role in the world than that of either Islam or Judaism; is this correct? While there's obviously no trinity in Islam, to what extent is God's immanence emphasised? And how does this vary between different branches of Islam? As you probably know, the concept of the Oneness of the God of Abraham is the same in Judaism and Islam. Christianity ascribes separate individuals in the unity of the one God of Abraham and the nature of the trinity can be defined differently according to the denomination but all agree they are part of the one God. God is One, Allah literally means "The God" with implications that there can be NO other. He is the same God of Abraham who bore Ismael and Isaac as sons and God promised to bless with nations of believers in his message of monotheism. He is Creator and completely Unique and separate from Creation in his nature, but within the creation he is Sustainer, Helper, Forgiver, Judge and much more. He is Eternal and not affected by time and space and has no beginning or end. "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." Qur'an 112 (Al Ikhlas) There are 99 names of Qur'an that identify his characteristics:  Similar to Christians, God plays an important personal role in our daily lives. In our 5 daily prayers we say with heartfelt meaning: "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray." Qur'an 1 (Al Fatiha) In addition to our 5 daily formal prayers, we ask for his forgiveness, help, and guidance everyday in our personal lives as well as for our nations, leaders and societies, etc. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jan 1, 2016 |
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Jan 1, 2016 16:31
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So I got Tendai's opinion earlier, but I want to ask our other Muslim friends who've since come in: How do y'all feel about Baha'is? I don't mean the opinion of your local Imam, or the official position of one country or another (I already know where Iran stands), I'm talking about specifically the people in this thread and your personal beliefs and feelings. I was raised Baha'i, and although I'm not a believer any more it's still been an influence on me.
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Jan 1, 2016 21:02
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Hogge Wild posted:If you're god isn't ok with 21st century, he's full of poo poo and you should change your god. If you just want to blow off some steam, why not play a bit of Counterstrike? Lassitude posted:Yeah, I saw that, but what does deism have to do with it? Zakmonster has made it fairly clear they are a Muslim. What does deist ethics have to do with it?
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Jan 1, 2016 21:15
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Flagrant Abuse posted:So I got Tendai's opinion earlier, but I want to ask our other Muslim friends who've since come in: How do y'all feel about Baha'is? I don't mean the opinion of your local Imam, or the official position of one country or another (I already know where Iran stands), I'm talking about specifically the people in this thread and your personal beliefs and feelings. I was raised Baha'i, and although I'm not a believer any more it's still been an influence on me. I haven't had any exposure to Baha'is and people here don't talk about them much. My imam has mentioned them a few times in passing, but in the same vein as Shiites or Wahabis (Muslims who were sadly led astray by a leader), usually as a warning to always verify anything you were told. Personally, I have no objections to people who want peace and love throughout the entire world. While I think they have left the path of God, I do understand and appreciate their message, and I won't turn one away if he asked to share a meal.
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Jan 2, 2016 06:35
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Flagrant Abuse posted:So I got Tendai's opinion earlier, but I want to ask our other Muslim friends who've since come in: How do y'all feel about Baha'is? I don't mean the opinion of your local Imam, or the official position of one country or another (I already know where Iran stands), I'm talking about specifically the people in this thread and your personal beliefs and feelings. I was raised Baha'i, and although I'm not a believer any more it's still been an influence on me. I honestly don't know much about Baha'i faith other than that it teaches there are "Divine Messengers" who were foretold and come in the 19th century (The Bab & Bahaullah). Hence, it is not an Islamic movement but a separate or independent movement that perhaps once had it's roots among the Shi'a. Im sure you can school me more on Baha'i beliefs and I am more than willing to learn, but the core essence of the Islam's message in both the Shi'a and Sunni movements is in there not only being One God but Muhammad being the Last Messenger before the day of Judgement. As with all religions, I personally feel despite our differences, we should respect each other and debate in the best ways and with wisdom, not persecute each other. “Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.” Qur’an 16:12
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Jan 2, 2016 07:35
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Cingulate posted:It seems I've not made myself clear. You're asking me to consider that it is not I who is wrong, but God. I am saying: personally, I believe God is neither wrong nor right because he doesn't exist. But if I were a theist, I would assume it is by definition impossible to ever say "God wants something that is not inherently moral", that God is, not by accident and fact, but by definition, never wrong. You are assuming that everyone is going to agree that 'inherently wrong' is a thing and that Western liberal individualist ideas perfectly define what that is and that there are no other criteria by which to decide whether to spray bodily fluids on someone. Obviously, not everyone will align with your perspective.
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Jan 2, 2016 10:54
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Amun Khonsu posted:Well, do you think a Muslim would not think kindly of his religion or represent it in the best light? heh It just sounds like you are taking collegiate social justice stances and sticking a theological justification behind it. Which, for me, is off-putting and disingenuous and some other negative things.
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Jan 2, 2016 11:01
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Maoist Pussy posted:It just sounds like you are taking collegiate social justice stances and sticking a theological justification behind it. Which, for me, is off-putting and disingenuous and some other negative things. Doesn't sound like that to me. Sounds more to me like he's just trying to find the fluffiest words possible to express bigotry. Justice is not possible in a system where you believe some people have sinned just by being born, imo. It is for that reason that I do not believe that God, being just, considers anyone's mere existence to be wrong.
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Jan 2, 2016 14:10
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Maoist Pussy posted:You are assuming that everyone is going to agree that 'inherently wrong' Maoist Pussy posted:and that Western liberal individualist ideas perfectly define what that is and that there are no other criteria by which to decide whether to spray bodily fluids on someone. Obviously, not everyone will align with your perspective.
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Jan 2, 2016 15:31
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From what I can tell, for Zakmonster, "inherently wrong" = causes direct, unwanted suffering to human (and possible other) human beings in this world.
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Jan 2, 2016 15:39
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TacticalUrbanHomo posted:Doesn't sound like that to me. Sounds more to me like he's just trying to find the fluffiest words possible to express bigotry. Read the last two pages, being gay is not a sin. Only the splitting of rear end to ram cock is a sin. You can probably even kiss and it will not be a sin, but I dunno.
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Jan 2, 2016 15:44
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TacticalUrbanHomo posted:Doesn't sound like that to me. Sounds more to me like he's just trying to find the fluffiest words possible to express bigotry. No people sin by being born according to Islam. Original sin is specific to Christian theology, not Islam. Maoist Pussy posted:It just sounds like you are taking collegiate social justice stances and sticking a theological justification behind it. Which, for me, is off-putting and disingenuous and some other negative things. I follow my faith closely and am well knowledgeable about it. Islam is a social justice movement. O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted. Qur'an 4:135 Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 16:28
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 00:21 |
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Say my wife is disobedient. How should i hit her to prevent permanent marks? Like just a slap across the face or are clenched fists acceptable? Peace be unto you brothers. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 2, 2016 16:36
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