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sean10mm posted:I just saw this finally, and overall was pretty impressed. I saw it before christmas and really want to see it again, maybe in 3D this time. I agree with the praise in this thread, I had mixed expectations before I went in, but was pleasantly surprised. The only rhyming that I thought was a bit too much was when the villains' base/weapon turned out to be another death star. I almost expected someone to say "That's a moon" and wink at the camera. I was amazed that the characters were so rounded and complex and that their behavior made sense regarding their backgrounds. I was one of the people who were kind of dissapointed when I heard Hamill, Ford and Fisher were hired, because I feared it would be "the continued adventures of Luke and Han" (like with Indy and the Crystal Skull). Even worse: it could have been short cameos like some OT characters (Chewbacca) in the Prequel trilogy. I think the way it was handled was pretty perfect. The old folks were old and knew it. They were not the main cast, but still relevant to the story as mentors and leaders to the young new adventurers. Another pleasant surprise was that Kylo Ren wasn't the Darth Vader copy the trailers had set him up to be. I loved that the fencing felt like two people fencing with swords and trying to kill each other while trying not to get their head liberated from their neck, instead of a CGI-rended Cirque du Solei act. Most of all I liked that there was a grounding in "reality". The characters were believable, the sets felt real and decayed, and the Hitler stuff... well, that kind of happened in real life too. The Triumph des Willes-imagery of the mass gathering was almost a little too blunt, but it fit anyway. Ren ordering his storm troopers to exterminate everyone in the village, even kids, it's not just cartoonish evil, it's the kind of coldhearted and inhuman massacres that happens in wars, and has throughout history. There was SO many things that could have been done wrong, and I think JJ dodged most of the bullets pretty well.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:. This is an awesome insight. also I loved the helicopter shot at the end. It was so "un" Star Wars and jarring. It was shocking.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:35
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Cnut the Great posted:The thing about Finn that didn't quite work for me (and this appears to be one of the more common criticisms) is that his backstory as an ex-stormtrooper brainwashed from birth to be a remorseless killer seems to be at odds with the way Boyega actually portrays the character. He doesn't ever come across that way. More than anything, he seems like a nice, chill guy who's finally just had enough of the rear end in a top hat bosses he works for. That would be great if the movie gave us some context for how he got to be that way, but as it stands, we're just left wondering how the lifelong First Order indoctrination process managed to produce such a normal, funny guy. Honestly it didn't bother me too much. I mean it's a bit silly but it's Star Wars and his scene where he awakens almost comes off as a total rebirth, like for the he's noticing what's happening all at once. And that's actually pretty odd. Even from the way other Stormtroopers who have needed conditioning are described it sounds like there's usually a build up. So in a way I think it makes sense for him to not have the personality you'd expect from a first order guy.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:36
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Cnut the Great posted:The thing about Finn that didn't quite work for me (and this appears to be one of the more common criticisms) is that his backstory as an ex-stormtrooper brainwashed from birth to be a remorseless killer seems to be at odds with the way Boyega actually portrays the character. He doesn't ever come across that way. More than anything, he seems like a nice, chill guy who's finally just had enough of the rear end in a top hat bosses he works for. That would be great if the movie gave us some context for how he got to be that way, He was awoken by the force. (Its the title of the film.) Think Saul on the road to Damascus. Total, instantaneous conversion. The mark of blood on his helmet was genius. I agree that the originality and vision of the planets was lackluster. But the blood on the helmet was fantastic. When has a stormtrooper ever bleed?
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Jan 2, 2016 19:38
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euphronius posted:He was awoken by the force. (Its the title of the film.) They did play a weird little forcey sound effect when he awoke too.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:40
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Gorelab posted:Honestly it didn't bother me too much. I mean it's a bit silly but it's Star Wars and his scene where he awakens almost comes off as a total rebirth, like for the he's noticing what's happening all at once. And that's actually pretty odd. Even from the way other Stormtroopers who have needed conditioning are described it sounds like there's usually a build up. So in a way I think it makes sense for him to not have the personality you'd expect from a first order guy. Plus Star Wars was actually pretty breezy and quip-y, so it's not like that's a departure for the series. The OT is full of people making smart remarks about what's going on around them. It's not like JJ invented that kind of thing because he's the NuTrek devil or something.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:41
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Didn't we hear a couple storm troopers casually chatting while Rey was sneaking around after escaping? Just cause they're indoctrinated to be loyal and unquestioning to the First Order from a young age doesn't mean they can't be somewhat personable. For all we know they tell jokes and give eachother poo poo in the mess hall. Even Cody, who was similarly indoctrinated and trained from birth as a clone soldier in the prequels had a bit of a personality and joked with Obi-wan in the few bits of "normal" interaction we got to see of him. They're still people, not droids.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:41
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I'm somewhat familiar with film criticism and history, but I'm talking about the more esoteric stuff like "Darth Vader is an emblem of Christian Marxism" and On another note I think it's hilarious that Captain Phasma turned out to be another Boba Fett. The filmmakers seem to be trying to say that evil is a cool aesthetic and does not actually make you more powerful, which is the opposite of what people want to believe.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:46
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Soggy Cereal posted:I'm somewhat familiar with film criticism and history, but I'm talking about the more esoteric stuff like "Darth Vader is an emblem of Christian Marxism" and And of course that applies to Ren and his costume, and his worship of Vader's "badass' mask (that was covering a char-broiled old dude with no arms or legs.)
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Jan 2, 2016 19:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The ending of Force Awakens must be read as extremely dark, because Rey has reached the altogether wrong conclusion from her journey. Note how she carries the lightsaber to Luke in the exact same way that she carried the scavenged scrap to the blobfish guy. She is looking for an authority in whom she can she can entrust all power. It evokes the scene in Lord Of The Rings, where Frodo tries to pass the ring to the elves: This is why I think people have trouble with your posts. Read Soggy Cereal's interpretation. It's full of detailed, specific one-to-one examples that correlate the events in the film to his relatable analogies. Read Cnut's posts. He speaks from his own perspective and does not transform his opinions into unassailable absolutes. You tend to throw out half an interpretation in a grand statement and then move on without offering room for other views, or, often, enough detail to illustrate your point. It translates as arrogant and obtuse. It's frustrating because your viewpoint is interesting, but you don't invite discussion.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:51
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Finn has tons of skills though. THe movie shows lots of them.
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Jan 2, 2016 19:54
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sean10mm posted:Plus Star Wars was actually pretty breezy and quip-y, so it's not like that's a departure for the series. The OT is full of people making smart remarks about what's going on around them. It's not like JJ invented that kind of thing because he's the NuTrek devil or something. I feel like there's a difference in tone there that J.J. has never quite grasped, though. This is apparent not just in TFA but in all of his movies. In the old Star Wars movies, the quips came across as the characters lashing out at each other in frustration and simply trying their best to deal the unbearable tension of the situation unfolding around them. In Abrams' movies (and Super 8 is a particularly egregious offender) the quips are written and delivered in such a way that it makes it seem like the characters aren't even seriously worried about what's going on. They're delivered in this kind of droll, detached way that screams out "THIS IS A COMEDY BEAT." As a result, it ends up actually deflating the tension, instead of simply giving the impression that that's what the characters are trying to do, and it hurts the movie. I don't think J.J. fully understands why these things work. He doesn't get that a comedy beat during a dramatic scene requires a slightly different touch than a comedy beat during a more lighthearted one--or maybe he does, and he just has a different personal threshold than me. But, as in other places, I think he's just imitating the surface qualities of the films he grew up with without delving deeper into what actually makes them work. euphronius posted:He was awoken by the force. (Its the title of the film.) I'd feel better about this if we actually got a sense of what Finn was like before his "awakening." It's all well and good for him to have had a sudden, transformative encounter with the Force, but there has to be some sort of before-and-after context. The same kind of thing happens in Episode III when Anakin makes his Faustian pact with Sidious. The moment Sidious draws the name "Darth Vader" up out of the ether and bestows it on Anakin, it's like a veil is drawn over Anakin's face, and all the fear and doubt and shame that were seconds ago so clearly etched there immediately vanish and are replaced with cold resolution. The difference is that that we spent two-and-a-half movies building up to this moment. There's a dramatic weight to it that's lacking with Finn, because we have no idea what parts of his own past self Finn is reacting to in constructing this new personality for himself. It really does seem like he's always been this way, but was just never allowed to show it until now. I agree, the blood on the helmet was a fantastic moment, but I had a hard time believing Finn was the guy it happened to. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 19:58
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"That's not how the force works!" "I dont need you to hold my hand!" (paraphrase) "Don't do that!""What?""Anything!!"
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Jan 2, 2016 20:00
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euphronius posted:Finn has tons of skills though. THe movie shows lots of them. In general Finn looks less skilled than he is I think, because the stuff where he never misses with a blaster is fairly subtle and isn't really the main focus. Him getting his rear end kicked seems more evident because it's more front and center. I found Maz encouraging Finn to use the lightsaber at all kinda odd. It feels like there shouldn't be a shortage of blasters around a seedy cantina.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:06
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Hes skilled in melee, ranged, strategy, leadership. Hes an excellent soldier.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:15
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:This is why I think people have trouble with your posts. Yeah, I just read Soggy Cereal's and SueprMechagodzilla's interpretations and Soggy's is a lot better. Better supported, better presented, and using ideas that are more relevant.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:15
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Cnut the Great posted:I feel like there's a difference in tone there that J.J. has never quite grasped, though. This is apparent not just in TFA but in all of his movies. I agree with this, and it's something that Lucas is extremely guilty of in the prequels. I think the reason the quips and beats work so well in the OT was because of the natural rapport between the three lead actors, and their willingness to completely ignore Lucas' direction for the sake of the scene. ANH was a much looser production than anything that came afterward, made with the expectation that the movie would be a modest success at best, and probably a flop. Harrison Ford was also notorious for just ad-libbing like crazy no matter what, and ended up a sort of ringleader of mischief for Hamill and Fisher to follow. I think Abrams tried to foster some of that rapport and encourage fun on set, and it shows in the film. The thing he can't do, that nobody can do anymore, is relax completely. The tone will never be as loose, the timing will never be as spontaneous because there's now billions of dollars and a 40 year legacy attached to these productions. Given all that, I think JJ made an extremely fun movie, which after the dire gloom of the PT is a huge breath of fresh air.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:21
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You are imagining that they ignored Lucas's direction. He only directed ANH and half of ROTJ anyway. Do you think a 19 year old or whatever Mark Hamill was ignoring direction.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:22
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euphronius posted:You are imagining that they ignored Lucas's direction. He only directed ANH and half of ROTJ anyway. You should watch some interviews with the actors involved. I'm not making this up out of whole cloth. “I would talk to George about say Luke and what he is feeling… Should I be jealous that this guy is hitting on the Princess?” George would say: “That’s interesting. We’ll talk about it later.” Which of course, we never would!” -- Mark Hamill "George, you can type this poo poo, but you can’t say it." --Harrison Ford The bit where Han and Luke, dressed as stormtroopers, are facing the wrong way when the elevator opens in ANH was a planned ad-lib by Hamill and Ford. Han's famous response to Leia's "I love you" in ESB was ad-libbed. In fact, his story about that reveals a lot about Lucas' decision making process. “It was such a contest between George and I about whether that was appropriate or whether the audience would enjoy that line or not, to the point where he made me go to a test screening to sit next to him to prove it was going to get a bad laugh,” Ford apparently recalled with a smile. “And it didn’t. It got a good laugh. So it stayed in.” Watch the "Dinner for Five" episode with Kevin Smith, JJ Abrams and Mark Hamill. Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 20:34
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:This is why I think people have trouble with your posts. He doesn't actually care. He is in fact a gimmick poster. If you look back in the archives he used to not do this until he realized he got him tons of attention. It's also why he has the stupid passive-aggressive chatbot response to everything because he isn't actually trying to make effort posts he just desperately desperate wants attention and is good at bullshitting (or copy-pasting Zizek quotes.)
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Jan 2, 2016 20:36
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Whining about SMG posts is far worse than any actual post SMG has ever made
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Jan 2, 2016 20:38
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:This is why I think people have trouble with your posts. My style is aphoristic, and what I've written is true. Cereal's post is close to the truth, but is also closer to a 'preferred' reading of the film. He interprets Rey's search for 'belonging' as a good thing - she is empowered because she's demanding employment from the last generation, and so-on. Meanwhile, he sees Ren, as many do, as an insane autistic terrorist '4channer' - in Lacan's terms, a Neighbor - and this slots in with other poster's praise for the films' shift from class conflict to multiculturalism. We have a narrative of the multicultural Republic under threat by totalitarians, and so we need a strong group of peacekeeping elites who will take charge and eliminate these villains and purify the galaxy. Then we will have a society with a place for women and blacks. I always like to point out the difference between being against racism and being against racist people. Force Awakens is the latter, except in the pessimistic subtext that will inevitably be explored in the subsequent films. The giant fissure in the ground interrupts the final battle specifically to show us that the conflict between Rey and Ren is a false one. Everyone has ultimately failed to deal with the question of what went wrong with Luke's utopia. We all know that Ren will eventually 'turn good', but we're not yet at that stage. Force Awakens retcons Episode 6, because Christ's message (and the message of Lucas' six films) is to love thy neighbor as thyself. For this narrative to make sense, it was necessary to forget that lesson. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 20:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:My style is aphoristic, and what I've written is true. woof. forget I said anything, you really are a chatbot.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:44
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You should watch some interviews with the actors involved. I'm not making this up out of whole cloth. None of that is ignoring direction.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:My style is aphoristic, and what I've written is true. Woooooooow.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:47
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:forget I said anything, you really are a chatbot. People have the strangest ways of agreeing with me.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:47
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Gorelab posted:I found Maz encouraging Finn to use the lightsaber at all kinda odd. It feels like there shouldn't be a shortage of blasters around a seedy cantina. By that point they were crawling out of the ruins of the basement. Most of the place was already rubble, there wasn't really time to go find a blaster.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:49
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euphronius posted:None of that is ignoring direction. Fair enough. I suppose the distinction I meant to suggest is that it was possible and necessary for actors to define their own characters and develop their own rapport in the OT. By all accounts, this was not true of the prequels, which created a much more rigorous and serious tone to the films. JJ did a good job of trying to recreate the fun and camaraderie of the OT, and he was largely successful. But to Cnut's point, he's still recreating a tone rather than allowing rapport and ad-libs to happen naturally on set.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:People have the strangest ways of agreeing with me. Uh huh. Anyway, here's a cool tumblr post: Dating Kylo Ren Would Involve
Jewel Repetition fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 20:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I always like to point out the difference between being against racism and being against racist people. Force Awakens is the latter, except in the pessimistic subtext that will inevitably be explored in the subsequent films. The giant fissure in the ground interrupts the final battle specifically to show us that the conflict between Rey and Ren is a false one. Everyone has ultimately failed to deal with the question of what went wrong with Luke's utopia. We all know knows that Ren will eventually 'turn good', but we're not yet at that stage. The issue with this is we don't even have an idea of what Luke's plan was. He evidently didn't make the same mistakes as the old Jedi Order, given he renounced violence and chose a martyr's death in RotJ so it's hard to really understand Ren's moral position until we know what it is he was rebeling against. An impotent, ineffectual pacifism? God only knows Jewel Repetition posted:Uh huh. 
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Jan 2, 2016 20:52
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:woof. Jewel Repetition posted:Woooooooow. Once you realize that everything a person says is their thoughts and opinions, and thus open to dispute, you'll be better able to digest "arrogant" disagreement.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:53
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:You guys are only shocked because he didn't preface any of this with "I think" or "in my opinion". This is a joke that comes up a lot here but I have seen this a lot in other places and I have trouble with it still.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:56
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:You guys are only shocked because he didn't preface any of this with "I think" or "in my opinion". I can't speak for the good doctor Fishopolis, but for me it's the opposite of that. He doth protest too much. Nobody keeps going "what I say is true and accurate" if what they say is true and accurate.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:57
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The joke is that, as Sam Jackson recently put it during his Hateful Eight interview on DP/30, the only direction an actor should need if he's been cast correctly and is an actual professional, is "faster/slower/louder/softer", as the emotional homework should have been done by the actor before arriving to set. In this case, the oft-maligned "faster, more intense" direction that Lucas would give was more or less him handing the subtleties of the characterization to the actors, as in his mind, that's what they're there to do. Even a bit that Cnut brought up some time ago about Hamill coming to the conclusion that Luke is Lucas's stand-in based on Mark initially playing finding R2 again as a panicked "I have to fix this!" moment and George giving him an example of what he wanted by simply walking over and quietly reassuring himself and 3PO that R2 wasn't going to run off again is just a longer-form way of Lucas saying "play it softer" while simultaneously cutting out a half dozen takes of Mark winding down the performance until it matched George's preference and getting him the take he wanted immediately. If Harrison, Mark, Carrie, Anthony, et al, were ignoring George's direction, the rhythm of the dialogue itself would be much, much slower, since the joke that they all made even decades later was George's only real direction for them being "faster, more intense". Ironically JJ did the exact same thing on this film and it seemed to drive Oscar Isaac crazy because he sensed that his character was a bit one-dimensional (hotshot great pilot! Leia's right-hand man! Uh... that's about it), and kept trying to find ways to "shade in" some aspects to the character only for JJ to tell him to hurry the gently caress up and get to the end of the scene. Of course, he probably should have seen that coming when JJ sat down at lunch with him and pitched the character as being real cool and heroic and dying immediately.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:59
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:You guys are only shocked because he didn't preface any of this with "I think" or "in my opinion". In other words, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. 
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Jan 2, 2016 20:59
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Jewel Repetition posted:I can't speak for the good doctor Fishopolis, but for me it's the opposite of that. He doth protest too much. Nobody keeps going "what I say is true and accurate" if what they say is true and accurate. If you think SMG is wrong engage with his points and explain why they're wrong rather than trying to prove how he doesn't actually mean them
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Jan 2, 2016 21:00
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:You guys are only shocked because he didn't preface any of this with "I think" or "in my opinion". There's nothing particularly interesting or engaging about someone blathering opinions on a forum without any intention of having a discussion. SMG has no interest in anyone else's opinion and will never concede anything in an exchange of ideas. If I wanted that kind of interaction, I'd be reading some autistic blowhard's Medium page, not posting on a forum.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:02
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A Steampunk Gent posted:If you think SMG is wrong engage with his points and explain why they're wrong rather than trying to prove how he doesn't actually mean them People have tried that. He ignores them the second he isn't interested in it anymore. The "he's just fostering conversation!!!" poo poo is old. He isn't because he isn't interested in conversation.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:02
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He is mean and arrogant.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:04
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And he was a good friend.
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