|
Rime posted:As I quipped to a friend "Try getting your average Canadian to understand the preschool simple concept of Saudi Arabian control over oil prices". That's extremely clever and all, but do you have any evidence or even anecdotes that Canadians largely don't understand that?
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 21:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 17:40 |
|
|
PT6A posted:That's extremely clever and all, but do you have any evidence or even anecdotes that Canadians largely don't understand that? Agreeing with a PT6A post. edit HAPPY NEW YEAR edit2 you all get a reputation jubilee don't gently caress it up
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 21:34
|
|
|
PT6A posted:That's extremely clever and all, but do you have any evidence or even anecdotes that Canadians largely don't understand that? They understand it, they just dont care until it affects them personally. We are kind of horrible people sometimes. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 21:54
|
|
|
PT6A posted:That's extremely clever and all, but do you have any evidence or even anecdotes that Canadians largely don't understand that? There is ample evidence for this. Just look between the 49th and 60th parallels, on the Atlantic side of the Great Divide, between the 110th and 116th meridians. A majority of people in this bounded area believe that the Canadian government has near total control over oil prices, and still cling to the belief that they were used to deliberately destroy their economy in the early 1980s.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:02
|
|
|
.
James Baud fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Aug 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:18
|
|
|
MrChips posted:There is ample evidence for this. Just look between the 49th and 60th parallels, on the Atlantic side of the Great Divide, between the 110th and 116th meridians. A majority of people in this bounded area believe that the Canadian government has near total control over oil prices, and still cling to the belief that they were used to deliberately destroy their economy in the early 1980s. Well, first of all I'd want to see the polls showing a majority of people believe any of those things. But even granting the fact that a lot of people in Alberta have silly ideas about government energy policy, or the history of the NEP, I think it's a bit more complicated than how you're presenting it. People are very strange creatures and sometimes they will sincerely believe something while still, on some deeper level, seeming to know that their belief is nonesense. There's even a term that's been coined by bloggers: "symbolic belief", that deals with the situations. I feel weird quoting someone who is a fellow at the Cato Institute of all places but this argument makes sense to me: quote:The classic case of a “symbolic belief” is what Orwell dubbed “doublethink”: propositions you profess publicly, maybe even sincerely believe you believe, even while, on another level, there’s some part of you that knows better, so that the false belief doesn’t actually get you into practical trouble. Pseudobeliefs may serve any number of functions; I’m using the phrase “symbolic belief” for the ones that either work as a public expression of some associated attitude, or play some role in defining the holder’s self-conception. In a post from last week, a commenter pointed out that there really are vegetarians and vegans, especially in certain punk scenes, who purport to believe that animals are not only morally equal to, but perhaps even morally superior to human beings. As he also pointed out, though, none of them really act as though they believe anything of the sort. Now, you might say that we already have a word for this: Hypocrisy. But I think it’s worth preserving a separate term here, because we usually use that term for people who specifically promote standards of behavior that they either consciously don’t really hold or do hold but are just incapable of adhering to (from weakness of will or whatever), and conceal this inability out of shame or fear. Symbolic beliefs, as I’m conceiving of them, are “sincere”—in that the person holding them probably isn’t consciously or reflexively aware that they’re false, but also shallow, insofar as a subconscious lack of commitment to the truth of the belief renders it behaviorally inert. For those who aren’t hardcore birthers, I’d hazard that the real meaning of professing either uncertainty or positive disbelief in the claim that he was born in the U.S. is something like: “I consider Obama phony, dishonest, and un-American.” It’s not, I hasten to say, that they really believe, deep-down, that Obama was born in Hawaii. It’s more that—as with H.G. Frankfurt’s definition of “bullshit”—the literal truth or falsity of the proposition is a matter of indifference; it’s not really the point. Personally I think he's onto something. Even when people superficially profess to hold stupid beliefs that doesn't mean they always act on those stupid beliefs. This isn't to say that the average Canadian is brilliant or politically savvy, but I think it just illustrates that polling people's opinions doesn't always reveal that much about how they will behave. The human mind has only a limited access to its own inner workings and asking people what they believe doesn't necessarily tell you as much as you might think that it does.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:27
|
|
|
James Baud posted:Good job cluelessly trying to talk about things that happened 10+ years before you were born. (That said, 1980 Albertans are probably outnumbered 3:1 in their own province by now.) I was born right in the middle of it though? Not that it adds anything to my understanding of it though. Helsing posted:Well, first of all I'd want to see the polls showing a majority of people believe any of those things. But even granting the fact that a lot of people in Alberta have silly ideas about government energy policy, or the history of the NEP, I think it's a bit more complicated than how you're presenting it. Fair point, but the problem is that a good part of Albertans, even those who are ostensibly reasonably intelligent and well-informed (my parents included) hold this belief. And when they're challenged on what effect the NEP actually had, they really can't answer that. My point is this; sure people take on a lot of stupid, superficial or otherwise baseless opinions without necessarily believing in them totally, but if that opinion is all they express does anything else even matter? E: I live in Harper's riding, and I can provide anecdotes from now until forever with respect to climate change deniers, NEP frothers, western separatists, people who want to tag Muslims like Jews in Nazi Germany (or worse), people who unironically support Bill C-44...the list goes on and on. It doesn't matter whether they're just saying this poo poo so they win the "who's the most conservative?" pissing contest at Timmy's, the fact that they're even saying it at all is disgusting and disheartening all at once. tl;dr I'm going full CI here and hoping Pol Pot gets elected premier in 2019 MrChips fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jan 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:40
|
|
|
I have HIGH hopes for Canada
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:47
|
|
|
Jordan7hm posted:This is some good self reflection that lots of people who care a lot about politics should probably do once in a while. It would be even better if he could push just a liiittttle bit further into self-reflection and realize that he and Sun News were systematically trying to make politics more controversial, negative, and divisive. As it stands it's a bit loving ironic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:55
|
|
|
Cultural Imperial posted:I have HIGH hopes for Canada Lazy even by your standards.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 22:56
|
|
|
Cultural Imperial posted:I have HIGH hopes for Canada A radio ad for Kwantlen came on yesterday, it featured a guy expressing an interest in "learning about the marijuana industry".
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 00:04
|
|
|
Considering the logistics about the medical grow ops that already exist, I'm not surprised they're trying to cash in on it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 00:12
|
|
|
I will have an effort post about weed regularion ready in the next few days. I'm waiting for Some Stuff to hopefully Happen in the coming day before I waste my time writing an outdated thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 00:35
|
|
|
leftist heap posted:It would be even better if he could push just a liiittttle bit further into self-reflection and realize that he and Sun News were systematically trying to make politics more controversial, negative, and divisive. As it stands it's a bit loving ironic. Baby steps. The right pushes negativity but so does every other party. There is a real dearth of public consensus building in politics (in general, it's not just a modern thing).
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 01:22
|
|
|
Helsing posted:This isn't to say that the average Canadian is brilliant or politically savvy, but I think it just illustrates that polling people's opinions doesn't always reveal that much about how they will behave. The human mind has only a limited access to its own inner workings and asking people what they believe doesn't necessarily tell you as much as you might think that it does. It also emphasizes the importance of how things are framed. Most Canadians support state socialism! Great! But no one will vote for a NDP that promotes that (not recently, of course). That seems to be the messy part of politics and policy work. On a somewhat related note to the shift in political leadership, I had a chance to talk to the former mayor of Toronto David Crombie. I was struck by how efficient his city council worked to address infrastructure issues in Toronto (while at the same time being a notorious anti-development mayor). The CN tower was planned and built in 30 months. The Bloor subway line was built and entirely paid for by the city. I'm still getting a handle on the politics and economic situation of the 1970s that allowed for such agile politics and action but it's kind of amazing considering how politics seems to work at a municipal level in Toronto today. There's definitely some rose-tinted glasses on my part, I'm still digging into Toronto municipal projects then, but there is a pretty stark contrast.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 03:04
|
|
|
Dreylad posted:It also emphasizes the importance of how things are framed. Most Canadians support state socialism! Great! But no one will vote for a NDP that promotes that (not recently, of course). That seems to be the messy part of politics and policy work. I've noticed the same contrast, and honestly can't tell if it's the rampant corruption which feeds increasing amounts of time and money into unnecessary pockets or just that city halls are held captive by a populace which threatens to depose them if they move a manhole cover five feet in any direction.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 03:23
|
|
|
Rime posted:I've noticed the same contrast, and honestly can't tell if it's the rampant corruption which feeds increasing amounts of time and money into unnecessary pockets or just that city halls are held captive by a populace which threatens to depose them if they move a manhole cover five feet in any direction. In previous terms the Vision dominated Vancouver council moved pretty aggressively in building protected bike lanes over loud complaints from the Downtown BIA and other groups. They knew they had the political capital to do it and the time. With the transit referendum behind them Vancouver has begun planning for 12 new bike lanes. Again Vision has a strong majority and plenty of time before the next election in 2018. In comparison to Toronto it feels a lot more poo poo gets done in Vancouver. I wonder if having an at large system and municipal political parties instead of a ward system and individual councillors is the reason. If you get a big majority as Vision has, you can push an agenda through effectively. Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jan 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 04:42
|
|
|
Femtosecond posted:In comparison to Toronto it feels a lot more poo poo gets done in Vancouver. I wonder if having an at large system and municipal political parties instead of a ward system and individual councillors is the reason. If you get a big majority as Vision has, you can push an agenda through effectively. This has a lot more to do with Toronto's city council governing a ~5x large area and population than anything else.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 05:22
|
|
|
eXXon posted:This has a lot more to do with Toronto's city council governing a ~5x large area and population than anything else. That's a good point to raise. (but I thought almalgamation was supposed to make everything more efficient! welp)
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 06:30
|
|
|
Femtosecond posted:That's a good point to raise. I think it was infernal machines who linked this series of articles, it has some pretty good insight into how transit gets done in Toronto. http://spacing.ca/toronto/2014/05/28/spacing-investigation-part-1-political-movements-behind-scarborough-subway/
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 06:43
|
|
|
Rime posted:I've noticed the same contrast, and honestly can't tell if it's the rampant corruption which feeds increasing amounts of time and money into unnecessary pockets or just that city halls are held captive by a populace which threatens to depose them if they move a manhole cover five feet in any direction. Well I don't want to pretend those past years were free of corruption or complicated politics. Toronto is still living with the legacy of a half built transit system that was centered on cars (The Gardiner, the Spadina, and the Scarborough Expressways were components of a broader plan as everyone assumed TTC ridership would continue to plummet during the 60s and 70s). Obviously the megacity had a big impact on how Toronto is governed, which is compounded by the fact that cities were responsible for fewer services then than they are now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 17:45
|
|
|
Ikantski posted:I think it was infernal machines who linked this series of articles, it has some pretty good insight into how transit gets done in Toronto. http://spacing.ca/toronto/2014/05/28/spacing-investigation-part-1-political-movements-behind-scarborough-subway/ Of course  is, transit doesn't get done in Toronto. Despite the Scarborough subway shenanigans from the city and the province the LRT is still what's officially on the books planning wise. The subway doesn't so much as have a planned route, so there's no way to do an EA or any budgeting. And despite the mayor going on record saying it's a done deal, and adding a dedicated property tax increase for it, there is still no Scarborough subway plan of any sort, just a bunch of councillors, MPPs, and MPs jerking each other off. The wheels are quite literally going to fall off the SRT it's meant to replace long before there's ever a shovel in the ground, but no one at any level of government cares. Meanwhile, the original plan would have been completed by 2017.Dreylad posted:Well I don't want to pretend those past years were free of corruption or complicated politics. Toronto is still living with the legacy of a half built transit system that was centered on cars (The Gardiner, the Spadina, and the Scarborough Expressways were components of a broader plan as everyone assumed TTC ridership would continue to plummet during the 60s and 70s). Obviously the megacity had a big impact on how Toronto is governed, which is compounded by the fact that cities were responsible for fewer services then than they are now. Transit was handled by Metro Toronto even before amalgamation, the makeup of which was basically the same as the megacity is now even though the municipalities were separate. Amalgamation came with a massive downloading of provincial responsibility to the municipality and very little funding to cover it. On top of which we now have the suburbs that were more interested in keeping their taxes low than building infrastructure as part of the city itself, they still don't want the taxes, but they want the perks the city core has. Since provincial and federal funding only comes as one-time dispensations for specific projects we're left with no way to plan a proper system, we just dream big and hope we can sell it every time we want to build something. Everything else is covered by increasing fare-box revenues or trying to squeeze a little more blood from the stone that is the city budget. We do have the remnants of a lot of car-centric development, the issue is the councillors representing the former suburbs fight tooth and nail against any effort to transition it to a more transit oriented system, even well outside the boundaries of their wards. For example, not one single councillor who's ward touches the downtown Gardener express way (or surrounding neighbourhoods) voted to keep the eastern portion, but almost every councillor from outside the city core did. The same councillors, almost to a man, are the ones that have fought any transit expansion in the suburbs except their unicorn subway line, and have very loudly shouted down any plans for increased transit funding in the form of increased taxes, tolls, or fees (except of course increased fares). infernal machines fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
The bloor subway line took 50+ years to actually get built. It didn't just suddenly appear in the 60s. It was on the agenda for a very long time. Major infrastructure projects take a lot of time to get done. Stuff will get rushed through like the scarborough subway or the eastern gardiner realignment that shouldn't be done at all; only because it's politically beneficial in the short term.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 20:29
|
|
|
Government of Canada sites feature trigger warnings now. Hopefully they get added quickly to where they're really needed, Ontario hydro bills.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 20:34
|
|
|
i just want them to get rid of the stupid conservative blue branding on everything
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 20:35
|
|
|
I feel triggered every time i log on to the national student loan website and start worrying that harper is going to repeal the repayment assistance program before i remember it's just the goddamn branding that's still there freaking me out
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 20:37
|
|
|
I get a similar feeling every time I hear something like: "a message from the Prime Minister of Canada." It's going to take a while.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 20:52
|
|
|
Every time I see one of those "Canada Action Plan" logos anywhere I almost reflexively scream "loving Harper!" But then I remember he's not PM anymore. Am I getting triggered? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 21:10
|
|
|
lol loving trigger warnings are you loving kidding me
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 21:39
|
|
|
Harper is truly one of us millenials.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 21:51
|
|
|
Do it ironically posted:lol loving trigger warnings are you loving kidding me Doing things that matter to all Canadians. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 22:05
|
|
|
Ikantski posted:Government of Canada sites feature trigger warnings now. Hopefully they get added quickly to where they're really needed, Ontario hydro bills. I don't see anything wrong with this, except the Internet slang usage of triggered. MMIW poo poo has ruined the lives of many indigenous people in this country, and having some care regarding "The Official Website of How Your Country Left You To Die" is a good thing. Plenty of other traumatic issues have similar language attached to them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 23:16
|
|
|
What clods, having dignity and respect for people who've had it tough 
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 23:42
|
|
|
Lady Naga posted:What clods, having dignity and respect for people who've had it tough It's pretty loving Canadian to not give a poo poo about first nations, tbh
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2016 23:46
|
|
|
Lady Naga posted:What clods, having dignity and respect for people who've had it tough Respect is zero-sum. If you give it to someone, you have to take it away from someone else.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 01:21
|
|
|
Leofish posted:Respect is zero-sum. If you give it to someone, you have to take it away from someone else. Is this some form of subtle troll
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 02:19
|
|
|
Leofish posted:Respect is zero-sum. If you give it to someone, you have to take it away from someone else. Such as?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 02:23
|
|
|
Stretch Marx posted:Such as? Here, have a picture of Wynne sitting quietly, head covered and segregated with the other women at the back of a mosque so she can show respect to Islam? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 02:58
|
|
|
That can't be real now can it? Liberalism has gone full circle.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 03:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 17:40 |
|
|
Political figure respects local custom in house of worship. Truly this is the end of times.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 03:55
|
|
