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Mechafunkzilla posted:I can't remember a single line from that speech. Don't really need to, the visuals said it all Do you know any memorable quotes from Hitler's Nuremberg rally? E: i should probably stop skimming posts in this thread Krowley fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 17:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Force Awakens! You yourself have said many times in the past that dialogue is meaningless next to direction and imagery.
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Jan 3, 2016 17:53
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RBA Starblade posted:You mean the First Order. Ah, yes. Though the resistance is also a pathetic organization with a superweapon, that superweapon is Luke Skywalker and they spend most of the movie trying to find it.
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Jan 3, 2016 17:55
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Sunny Side Up posted:The republic was racist. Isn't that the point? The point is that movies never stopped using racist stock characters. They just disguised them as creepy-looking aliens. They're still the exact same characters, but now they don't have any telltale real-world racial or ethnic signifiers, so it's okay. No one cares if you have stereotypical Oriental stock characters in your movies as long as you remember to call them Vulcans. The reason The Phantom Menace caused such a stir is because it was George Lucas very crassly pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes, and that made people uncomfortable. What most of them failed to understand is that it was all a big self-aware joke at the entire sci-fi genre's expense. George Lucas "forgot" to call his stereotypical Oriental stock characters Vulcans. Instead, they're (Leonard Nimoy)dians representing the (Trade) Federation. The other funny thing is that everyone completely missed how the Neimoidians were also supposed to be Transylvanian stereotypes (I guess it flew under the radar since Transylvanian stereotypes tend to be still generally acceptable). I suspect it was a double-homage to two of Christopher Lee's most famous B-movie roles--so then Nute Gunray would be kind of a mash-up of Fu Manchu and Count Dracula:  (Pictured: An actor devoted to his, uh, craft)   Nute Gunray's also got a bit of a Max Schreck influence going on. The silver decorations on his headdress look like little abstract representations of Nosferatu. You can see the little pointy ears on the sides and the big pointy fangs hanging down:   Of course this Nosferatu-esque visual motif will recur with the more overtly Transylvanian General Grievous:  Again, oddly enough, the ridiculous, over-the-top, campy Romanian vampire stereotype didn't seem to bother people so much. I guess because everyone realizes George Lucas doesn't actually think Romanians are evil vampires. Thank God we have Maz Kanata here to save us, meticulously designed and committee-approved to be so bland, anodyne, and completely lacking in any sort of unique cultural signifiers that no one could possibly mistake her for a caricature of anyone or anything.  Memorable character. (Also, she actually might be a racist caricature after all. I'm not sure where the Internet's planning to land on this one. I'll keep you guys posted.) Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 17:56
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greatn posted:The resistance is actually small and pathetic though. They just have a superweapon. They are closer to North Korea than Nazi Germany. You can focus on different things in the scene and get different things. Are you implying North Korea isn't also excellent at staging political rallies? The scene was baffling. He's pontificating to faceless, nameless stormtroopers -- robots, basically. There is no public we're aware of to consume this propaganda, nor is there a an Old Guard that the new breed is trying to impress with the display of bravado. We don't see Snoke looking out over the throng with approval. It comes across as masturbatory and sad, which is fine, but doesn't mesh with the rest of the narrative of the film. It's immediately followed by the reveal -- out of nowhere, with zero foreshadowing or build-up -- that this group has built a planet-sized death cannon, which they use to blow up the entire government and military. North Korea is frightening because they could kill a lot of innocent people in their death throes, not because they represent an existential threat to major world powers. If you want to present a scenario where even political neophytes and upstarts have access to doomsday weapons then fine, but then you should actually go somewhere with that idea. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 17:56
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Maz is clearly the old Chinese Wise Woman trope which makes it funny that people are deliberately ignoring that aspect of her character.
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Jan 3, 2016 17:59
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computer parts posted:Maz is clearly the old Chinese Wise Woman trope which makes it funny that people are deliberately ignoring that aspect of her character. Pfft, look at this guy. Don't you know Chinese people are HUMAN while Maz is clearly an alien. Better bone up on your Star Wars info buddy.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:03
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computer parts posted:Maz is clearly the old Chinese Wise Woman trope which makes it funny that people are deliberately ignoring that aspect of her character. I was going to go with Native American wise woman. Did you go with Chinese because of the skin color?
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Jan 3, 2016 18:05
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Jack Gladney posted:There's a new Star War out. Why talk about an old one? Because the old ones don't have mary sues and also have main antagonists that are threatening.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:05
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RBA Starblade posted:I was going to go with Native American wise woman. Did you go with Chinese because of the skin color? Because she reminds me of the fashion designer in incredibles.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:06
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RBA Starblade posted:I was going to go with Native American wise woman. Did you go with Chinese because of the skin color? Probably the heavy Buddhist influences in the series, admittedly. Either way, "Magical Ancient [ethnic minority]".
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Jan 3, 2016 18:07
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Freakazoid_ posted:Because the old ones don't have mary sues and also have main antagonists that are threatening. Sure Poe is a bit of a Mary Sue but he's not in that much of the movie.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:07
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computer parts posted:Probably the heavy Buddhist influences in the series, admittedly. I realized after the fact that came out accusingly, sorry. I can see where you're coming from though. They're similar stereotypes. quote:Either way, "Magical Ancient [ethnic minority]". Yeah pretty much
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Jan 3, 2016 18:09
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Maz's characterization originates in the sage-hermit of Taoist mythology, so no, calling her a Wise Old Chinese Lady is not racist.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:13
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greatn posted:You yourself have said many times in the past that dialogue is meaningless next to direction and imagery. Actually, I've said that it's invariably subordinate to the imagery. Lots of films play off the conflicting information - dialogue that doesn't match what happens onscreen. In that case, you side with the image - but an image must be interpreted as part of a broader context. Why do we cut away from our protagonists to see this rally that they could have no knowledge of? Whose perspective is this? In the case of Hux, neither the dialogue nor the imagery are understood.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Actually, I've said that it's invariably subordinate to the imagery. Lots of films play off the conflicting information - dialogue that doesn't match what happens onscreen. In that case, you side with the image - but an image must be interpreted as part of a broader context. Why do we cut away from our protagonists to see this rally that they could have no knowledge of? Whose perspective is this?  Motherfuckers don't even know how to stage a rally. The soldiers are the same color as the floor and the sky, and the color scheme on the TIE fighters make them blend right in with the mountains. The iconography is illegibly small and scattered, nor does it frame the proceedings. Everyone looks kind of spread out, and there is no sense of symmetry or aesthetic order to the formations. We're basically being shown that these are not people who should be taken seriously, and then 30 seconds later they blow up the world government and are presented as the indomitable juggernaut our plucky underdog heroes have to go up against. The takeaway is that everyone else sucks even more than these jokers, in which case I'm glad they're dead and why should we care about anything else in the conflict. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 18:30
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computer parts posted:Maz is clearly the old Chinese Wise Woman trope which makes it funny that people are deliberately ignoring that aspect of her character. Yes, and in a similar vein, Chewbacca is the Tonto to Han Solo's Lone Ranger. He's the stereotypical indentured Indian servant, the loyal savage who periodically spouts exotic phrases in his native tongue. But it's so artfully disguised. You see, he's a Wookiee! He's from the planet Kashyyyk! It's different! Maz Kanata is a Whatever! She's from planet J.J.! It's different!
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Jan 3, 2016 18:35
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Alternatively we're being shown they are people who are not being taken seriously and blending into the background of the galaxy until they suddenly prove themselves a threat.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:36
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Maz's characterization originates in the sage-hermit of Taoist mythology, so no, calling her a Wise Old Chinese Lady is not racist. computer parts posted:Either way, "Magical Ancient [ethnic minority]". To be more specific, it's pretty clear that she's the Mentor of the "monomyth," so, yeah, pretty much every culture and myth/legend has a character exactly like this in some way. Considering George Lucas and, consequently Star Wars itself, has been heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell's work on the subject, this should come as no surprise to anyone.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:37
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Cnut the Great posted:Yes, and in a similar vein, Chewbacca is the Tonto to Han Solo's Lone Ranger. He's the stereotypical indentured Indian servant, the loyal savage who periodically spouts exotic phrases in his native tongue. But it's so artfully disguised. Chewbacca even uses a bow(caster)
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Jan 3, 2016 18:37
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Cnut the Great posted:[It's] from planet J.J.! It's different!
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Jan 3, 2016 18:39
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Mechafunkzilla posted:
What are you, some sorta rally-nazi?
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Jan 3, 2016 18:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Why do we cut away from our protagonists to see this rally that they could have no knowledge of? Whose perspective is this? The First Order is different because they are all military and fervor. Your claim of the stormtroopers being robots doesn't work with a film that starts with a stormtrooper bleeding and showing fear as he dies. These stormtroopers aren't the subordinate slaves of the prequels or the dopey canon fodder of the original trilogy. They're child soldiers and hitler youths. They are very much people dedicated to a cause which makes them scarier. They belong to a Stormtrooper culture. They belong to a culture that made a loving Darth Vader planet. They are worshippers of power; not manipulators of power like the Empire was.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:41
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Digiwizzard posted:
I never truly understood the concept of "animal vs. machine" until I saw this image. Game changer.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:42
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WeAreTheRomans posted:I never truly understood the concept of "animal vs. machine" until I saw this image. Game changer. You gotta watch True Lies man. But whatever you do don't watch Adaptation first. That happened to be the two movies I saw in a row one time and part of Adaptation runs a great part of True Lies, or at least biases you against it.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:54
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Timeless Appeal posted:It's mean to separate the First Order from the Empire. In A New Hope, the Empire is made up of boring middle aged men in a conference room. Tarkin is evil, but he seeks subordination above all else. The Death Star is less a weapon and more the Empire's replacement of the Republic. This "dedication to the cause" isn't something we're actually shown. We get that one guy yelling at Finn for being a traitor, that's about it. The rally was perhaps supposed to demonstrate that resolve, but it's pretty funny how badly it failed to do so given the source material they were cribbing from -- no shots of individual soldiers' steely-eyed resolve, no reaction shots to the Leader's words of inspiration, no spontaneous outbursts of rapturous applause. It didn't even look like they cared enough to make the thing aesthetically interesting, much less a symbol of their fanatical devotion.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:54
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greatn posted:You gotta watch True Lies man. But whatever you do don't watch Adaptation first. That happened to be the two movies I saw in a row one time and part of Adaptation runs a great part of True Lies, or at least biases you against it. I've seen both, but I'm very intrigued e: the horseback chase? lmao WeAreTheRomans fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 19:00
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This "dedication to the cause" isn't something we're actually shown. We get that one guy yelling at Finn for being a traitor, that's about it. The rally was perhaps supposed to demonstrate that resolve, but it's pretty funny how badly it failed to do so given the source material they were cribbing from -- no shots of individual soldiers' steely-eyed resolve, no reaction shots to the Leader's words of inspiration, no spontaneous outbursts of rapturous applause. It didn't even look like they cared enough to make the thing aesthetically interesting, much less a symbol of their fanatical devotion. While fanatics, they are also essentially fanatic about uniformity.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:00
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Actually Maz Kanata owns. She's based on Abrams's (very ethnic) English teacher. I think she's firmly in the magical negro category due to Lupita Nyongo. The "Mos Eisley" scene is a deliberate reversal in that the setting is lush, well-lit, and generally happy, showing that the rebels did actually change something in ROTJ. They redeemed the cantina - droids are clearly welcome, you see old friends there, and the only violence comes from outside. There are weird bug aliens but not literally Satan and a werewolf. Also General Hux owns as does his speech. People don't remember the speech because they weren't paying attention; usually they were distracted by the visuals, which are good. You know that people weren't paying attention because the speech loudly outlines the political setup (also given in the opening crawl!) that people also refuse to grasp: there is a Republic with a Senate, and the Republic publicly denies supporting the Resistance but actually supports it in secret. Memorable lines from the speech: "Where the Senate LIES to the GALAXY!" "A regime that acquiesces to disorder!" (referring to places like Maz's castle) "This will be remembered as the LAST DAY OF THE REPUBLIC!" Star Wars fans don't like Star Wars.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:06
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Soggy Cereal posted:Actually Maz Kanata owns. She's based on Abrams's (very ethnic) English teacher. I think she's firmly in the magical negro category due to Lupita Nyongo. Idk about that, she doesn't really seem coded as black.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:09
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Timeless Appeal posted:Like Ren himself, I don't think the First Order is supposed to actually be impressive in the way the films begrudgingly find the Empire impressive. They're supposed to be scary because how fanatic and dedicated they are to this. Grand Moff Hitler McGinger or whatever gets that across to me. How? What is shown that implies fanatical dedication? Why would we believe anyone would follow whatshisname?
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Jan 3, 2016 19:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I agree - but the problem is that, unlike the prequels, this is absolutely non-satirical. And unlike Episodes 4 & 5, it doesn't function as a standalone film. (The rebellion in Episode 4 is still laudable, despite the implication that they still haven't gone far enough). Yeah. I can't really disagree with the problems you're outlining. Mechafunkzilla posted:
They shouldn't be taken seriously! Their names are Phantasm, Smoke, and Huckster. They're not a serious threat. They're cosplayers with lightsaber chainsaws and custom stormtrooper armor. They blow up a (couple of) planet(s), but blowing up planets has become passe since 1977. Of course, they do have a point. People are starving on Jakku, and nobody in the Republic cares. The First Order exists and people support them, but instead of trying to work out why, they just send in opposing cosplayers. The Resistance assumes that these people have been "brainwashed", (and of course people are making comparisons to North Korea) as made literal through Leia's conviction that her son couldn't have shot up his school/Jedi Temple, it must have been horror movies/Supreme Leader Snoke. Of course, then we have the heroic school shooter in the form of Finn. This film's morality, while not really satirical, is still grossly hosed up.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:15
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Mechafunkzilla posted:
JJ Abrams is definitely no Leni Reifenstahl. The above shot, as you said, is really lumpy and asymmetrical. The forces look underwhelming because of the bad angle (why is there so much overpoweringly bright sky in the frame?), and merge into the mountain range. Emphasis is not on the baddies at all, but on the blank, clouded horizon. The mix of black and white reads as moldy grey, with pathetic speckles of red. The unfocussed blankness represents boringness, and it raises the question of what Hux is so worked up about.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:18
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Mechafunkzilla posted:How? What is shown that implies fanatical dedication? Why would we believe anyone would follow whatshisname? Hux has the base literally collapsing around him and goes to ask his master if its OK to escape, and all but one bridge officer stay on the bridge as everything is exploding and start chiding the one officer with the sense to gtfo. That's fanatical dedication.(although also evidence that they aren't all fanatics) We don't really see it from any stormtroopers though, if anything they seem very skittish. Especially their leader who lowers the shield based on a threat to her personal well-being. She seems completely devoid of fanaticism and more concerned with protocol than anything else.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:22
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Effectronica posted:Yeah. I can't really disagree with the problems you're outlining. Right -- so if the First Order sucks, and the Republic sucks, why should I give a poo poo about the central conflict of the film? If the narrative draw is supposed to be that a Third Way is needed, represented by Luke's return Finn & Rey coming of age or Ren's redemption or whatever, fine, but the film doesn't go anywhere in that direction. And if the idea is that you need to wait for the sequel for anything to matter, then the film is a narrative failure.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:24
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greatn posted:Hux has the base literally collapsing around him and goes to ask his master if its OK to escape, and all but one bridge officer stay on the bridge as everything is exploding and start chiding the one officer with the sense to gtfo. That's fanatical dedication.(although also evidence that they aren't all fanatics) This demonstrates subservience to an individual (and stupidity), but not fanatical devotion to a cause. It's not even clear what the cause they're devoted to is.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:26
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Right -- so if the First Order sucks, and the Republic sucks, why should I give a poo poo about the central conflict of the film? The central conflict of the film is over whether to run away or confront your problems, though? This is given through four different characters. I agree that this is poorly integrated with the war in the background, and it's bad that the film is less self-contained.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:27
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The galaxy is suffering a malaise because of a lack of truth and justice. The solution is to find Luke, who at the end of Jedi had an epiphany about bringing balance to the Force -- i.e. finding truth -- and restore him to a central place in galactic affairs.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:33
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My fave part of the film is that Finn knew about the doomsday weapon from the very beginning, and didn't tell anyone until after it was used.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:37
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That's kind of why he's desperate to escape to the outer rim. He just wants to run, and is sure the first order can't be beaten.
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Jan 3, 2016 19:39
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