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Effectronica posted:That's not what I said, is it? Well, that's the question I was asking, considering the context of "why did Jesus achieve immortalization instead of any of the other prophets?" I'm not sure how what I was asking could be considered otherwise, nor how else I would interpret a confident "Yes".
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Jan 5, 2016 01:59
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I thought his wife was a Christian and then he had the dream.
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Jan 5, 2016 02:10
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jivjov posted:I'm going for my 6th trip tomorrow Lol sorry for requoting this post but saw this and was reminded of it/this thread in general: http://www.theonion.com/article/man-who-saw-star-wars-force-awakens-6-times-over-h-52110
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Jan 5, 2016 02:22
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kiimo posted:I thought his wife was a Christian and then he had the dream. Neither Minervina nor Fausta are known to have been Christians, and his son Crispus, who was educated by a Christian, would have been five at the Battle of the Maxentius Bridge where Constantine is supposed to have used the Chi-Rho symbol for the first time.
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Jan 5, 2016 02:26
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A long time ago on a continent far, far away...
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Jan 5, 2016 02:33
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Neurolimal posted:You're moving the goalposts. We were not discussing how Christianity achieved success (conquest and conversion), we were discussing why Jesus was accepted by his followers, why he is well regarded both within and without christianity, and how Anakin works as a corrupted christ figure with these in mind (where I argue the contrary). Strictly speaking we're discussing whether Jesus is the central figure in Christianity because of his divinity or because of his (non-divine) acts of kindness. I think early Christians revered Jesus because they believed him to be divine. It is, after all, the central tenet of the religion. The social values ascribed to Jesus probably helped, but undoubtedly so did the promise of eternal life, or the influence of early Church literature, or the apocalypticism of early Christianity, or the existence of the Roman Empire (not just in the sense of Constantine's conversion). Unlike some of those other factors, Jesus' social values don't also explain why people actually deified him. Your argument feels vaguely anachronistic to me - like the people of the Mediterranean 2000 years ago didn't really believe in all that superstitious mumbo-jumbo, they just latched onto Jesus of Nazareth as a convenient figurehead for their progressive social values.
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Jan 5, 2016 02:36
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Effectronica posted:Neither Minervina nor Fausta are known to have been Christians, and his son Crispus, who was educated by a Christian, would have been five at the Battle of the Maxentius Bridge where Constantine is supposed to have used the Chi-Rho symbol for the first time. I will admit me that you've sufficiently wowed me with your knowledge of his wives' names that I'm not going to retort. My Art History professor is full of poo poo then.
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Jan 5, 2016 02:45
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kiimo posted:I will admit me that you've sufficiently wowed me with your knowledge of his wives' names that I'm not going to retort. My Art History professor is full of poo poo then. I mean, it's actually entirely plausible- Christianity (particularly the hypothetical Mary-Magdalenian branch) appealed a lot to women. But it's not known for sure.
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Jan 5, 2016 02:47
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Lt. Danger posted:Your argument feels vaguely anachronistic to me - like the people of the Mediterranean 2000 years ago didn't really believe in all that superstitious mumbo-jumbo, they just latched onto Jesus of Nazareth as a convenient figurehead for their progressive social values. And I believe that you are underestimating the common man, in any time period. Obviously they would know less than us, but I doubt that a roman christian, given the choice between a prophet with values in conflict with his self-interest, and a prophet with values that assist their self interests, would flock to the former out of a belief that they are holier; its not like they had some sorth of Faith Liver that attracted them to the most messianic messiah.
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Jan 5, 2016 03:52
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Neurolimal posted:And I believe that you are underestimating the common man, in any time period. Obviously they would know less than us, but I doubt that a roman christian, given the choice between a prophet with values in conflict with his self-interest, and a prophet with values that assist their self interests, would flock to the former out of a belief that they are holier; its not like they had some sorth of Faith Liver that attracted them to the most messianic messiah. Jesus preached stuff that was actively detrimental to self interest. Like, that's what "turn the other cheek" implies, or the story of the rich man who wouldn't give up his possessions (the "camel through an eye of a needle" story).
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Jan 5, 2016 03:56
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computer parts posted:Jesus preached stuff that was actively detrimental to self interest. Like, that's what "turn the other cheek" implies, or the story of the rich man who wouldn't give up his possessions (the "camel through an eye of a needle" story). The latter would be significantly appealing to poor romans, as the tithing story specifically puts emphasis on giving what you can over how much; the man who had little but gave all was considered more moral than the man who had much and gave some. Turn the other cheek could be argued to be an ultimately beneficial policy, and I doubt someone who out-charisma'd all other shysters couldn't do so. It's also a story that, while not immediately beneficial to the follower, does impress in his capability for forgiveness, and places him above the offender morally. His compassion for those who took unholy professions or sinned would also be quite appealing to the common roman, especially one abiding by the restrictions of the old testament; if barely any christians read and follow the bible when it is incredibly available today, imagine how sinful they may have been then. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Jan 5, 2016 |
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Jan 5, 2016 04:13
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shut the gently caress up about jesus
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Jan 5, 2016 04:41
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The Something Awful Forums > Cinema Discusso › Star Wars: Shut the gently caress Up About Jesus
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Jan 5, 2016 04:46
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The only really Jesus-y thing about Anakin is something that tons of Messiah stories have anyway. But the reason one can safely say Anakin is corrupted by the Jedi is because he starts out as a kind kid who wants to help and then the Jedi are so bad at dealing with someone who hasn't been indoctrinated from birth, and act so mistrustful of him, that he decides the only way he can save his wife is if he joins the Sith. I mean, Yoda tells him to not even mourn her death, that may work fine for the average Joe Jedi, but it's really bad advice for someone who's struggling with attachment and feeling invalidated by the Jedi in general.
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Jan 5, 2016 04:48
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Beeez posted:The only really Jesus-y thing about Anakin is something that tons of Messiah stories have anyway. But the reason one can safely say Anakin is corrupted by the Jedi is because he starts out as a kind kid who wants to help and then the Jedi are so bad at dealing with someone who hasn't been indoctrinated from birth, and act so mistrustful of him, that he decides the only way he can save his wife is if he joins the Sith. I mean, Yoda tells him to not even mourn her death, that may work fine for the average Joe Jedi, but it's really bad advice for someone who's struggling with attachment and feeling invalidated by the Jedi in general. See, this would work if, instead of having Anakin murder an entire tribe of ara-sand people we instead had more scenes of Anakin straining against and being influenced by poisonous Jedi teachings. As-is the progression of Anakin goes: dopey kid who murders droids -> lovestruck teen who murders children, poo poo-talks his only friend behind his back, and gives crazy speeches unprovoked-> unhinged angry guy who murders more children. We don't really get a chance to see anakin become corrupted or exhibit positive traits, he's a Bad Guy long before palpatine tries to get him to leave his friend to die and seduce him with force-sperm. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jan 5, 2016 |
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Jan 5, 2016 04:53
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Beeez posted:The only really Jesus-y thing about Anakin is something that tons of Messiah stories have anyway. But the reason one can safely say Anakin is corrupted by the Jedi is because he starts out as a kind kid who wants to help and then the Jedi are so bad at dealing with someone who hasn't been indoctrinated from birth, and act so mistrustful of him, that he decides the only way he can save his wife is if he joins the Sith. I mean, Yoda tells him to not even mourn her death, that may work fine for the average Joe Jedi, but it's really bad advice for someone who's struggling with attachment and feeling invalidated by the Jedi in general. The Jedi are Pharisees, and Vader cleanses the gently caress out of that temple.
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Jan 5, 2016 05:02
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It's actually super rad that people are talking about actual Christian themes in the Star Wars thread
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Jan 5, 2016 05:05
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This sheds a lot of light on Ren's crisis of faith If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. -
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Jan 5, 2016 05:10
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Guy A. Person posted:It's actually super rad that people are talking about actual Christian themes in the Star Wars thread Well, in this case it was a "this metaphor is poorly thought out" discussion, moreso than christchat
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Jan 5, 2016 05:10
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Anakin isn't meant to be a Jesus figure, and complaining about how the metaphor doesn't fit is therefore ridiculous. Anakin isn't an analog of Odysseus either, who gives a poo poo?
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Jan 5, 2016 05:32
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Effectronica posted:Anakin isn't meant to be a Jesus figure, and complaining about how the metaphor doesn't fit is therefore ridiculous. Anakin isn't an analog of Odysseus either, who gives a poo poo? The people insisting that Anakin is Jesus/any messiah, aparently.
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Jan 5, 2016 05:42
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Effectronica posted:Anakin isn't meant to be a Jesus figure, and complaining about how the metaphor doesn't fit is therefore ridiculous. Anakin isn't an analog of Odysseus either, who gives a poo poo? Anakin is a Jesus figure to the same limited extent that the Force is a metaphor for the Christian God. Which is to say, you can find parallels between them, but they're not one-to-one analogues, and they weren't designed to be. Star Wars is supposed to be a vague, all-inclusive mish-mash of every major mythological and religious tradition that has ever existed, broken down into their most basic components and reconstructed as a Flash Gordon-esque serial adventure featuring giant dogs flying hamburger-shaped spaceships.
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Jan 5, 2016 06:01
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Cnut the Great posted:Anakin is a Jesus figure to the same limited extent that the Force is a metaphor for the Christian God. Which is to say, you can find parallels between them, but they're not one-to-one analogues, and they weren't designed to be. Star Wars is supposed to be a vague, all-inclusive mish-mash of every major mythological and religious tradition that has ever existed, broken down into their most basic components and reconstructed as a Flash Gordon-esque serial adventure featuring giant dogs flying hamburger-shaped spaceships. Anakin isn't a Jesus figure, because there's no sacrifice, no painful acceptance of death, nothing to associate him with Jesus. His entire story in the PT is about denying physical death. Darth Vader sacrifices himself and comes to terms with death, but that's after his transfiguration on Mustafar, and nobody addresses him as "Anakin" after that. There's not a perfect analogy, but the same standard that makes Anakin a Christlike figure is the same one that makes every single character in all of fiction a Jesus figure.
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Jan 5, 2016 06:08
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This is from way back, but I think the part of the problem that younger people have with the old star wars movies is that we watched the special editions , which are full of crazy poo poo that makes no sense. I still remember the first time I tried to watch return of the jedi; I was really getting into the movie, and had the volume turned up, when suddenly this happened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiDRgDmXGi4 And I turned off the loving TV.
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Jan 5, 2016 06:10
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Neurolimal posted:See, this would work if, instead of having Anakin murder an entire tribe of ara-sand people we instead had more scenes of Anakin straining against and being influenced by poisonous Jedi teachings. This is something the Clone Wars series is amazing with. You can see Obi-Wan/etc. being huge hypocrites all day, being super chivalrous and honorable knights when it's time to talk that then slink out of taking action or actually helping people all the time with legal loopholes and "well a true Jedi wouldn't interfere with..." and it does a great job of planting the seeds of why the Jedi are a bunch of chumps and why anyone in Anakin's position would make the same choices and have the same frustrations. His loyalty to his friends also makes it much easier to buy him as this charismatic character that rises in the ranks quickly and knows that he knows how good he is. Also episodes with a lot of frustration about how the Jedi view the clones and droids as slaves incapable of agency and so on.
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Jan 5, 2016 06:20
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Neurolimal posted:See, this would work if, instead of having Anakin murder an entire tribe of ara-sand people we instead had more scenes of Anakin straining against and being influenced by poisonous Jedi teachings. In all the complaints about the 'romance' scenes in Attack Of The Clones, nobody seems to note what should be glaringly obvious: there is no romantic dialogue. The characters talk exclusively in political terms. It's a debate where Anakin - free from the Jedis' observation for the first time in ten loving years - begins to develop his own personal philosophy, bouncing his ideas off Padme. Why Padme? Because, ever since he was a child, he has viewed her as a golden God-Queen: Padme: I wasn't the youngest Queen ever elected, but now that I think back on it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was ready. Anakin: The people you served thought you did a good job. I heard they even tried to amend the Constitution so you could stay in office. The events of Episode 1 have had a subtle but profound influence on the young Anakin. He saw how Padme took charge in defiance of the impotent senate - and, of course, he got a great deal of acclaim for blowing up the Trade Federation ship. So, when Anakin talks about 'the people' in the above line, he is of course talking about himself. Anakin loves this idea of absolute monarchy ("In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn!") and sees his role as her agent. He's subordinating himself to Padme's will while, simultaneously, pushing her to make bolder authoritarian decisions. That is the role of the Jedi, to him. In other words, there is no romance in Episode 2. It's purely negotiations. Their relationship is a political arrangement, that culminates in the hilariously sexually-charged imagery of 'aggressive negotiations' at the end of the film. Padme: Aggressive negotiations? What's that? Anakin: Ah, well, negotiations with a lightsaber. When Anakin genocides the sandpeople, he immediately goes to Padme for guidance - and she approves. This is what cements in his head that an absolute monarch can do what the senate can't. And Padme secretly agrees, because she is a racist. They're made for eachother. Of course the film ends with a cut from the Jedi deploying their clone army to Anakin and Padme kissing at their marriage ceremony. Lucas is explicit that this is an obscene, unholy marriage.
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Jan 5, 2016 06:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In all the complaints about the 'romance' scenes in Attack Of The Clones, nobody seems to note what should be glaringly obvious: there is no romantic dialogue. The characters talk exclusively in political terms. ANAKIN: From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again, I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you- I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me. What can I do? I will do anything that you ask...
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Jan 5, 2016 07:15
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Ultimately it doesn't matter if Anakin and Padme's relationship is legitimate at all, the only thing that matters is what Anakin believed it to be, and that the Jedi forbade the relationship. This is also ultimately the only mistake the Jedi actually make for themselves, as they serve the senate, and thus serve Palpatine. No, the only real thing of any value the Jedi order actually does is, or is at least supposed to be, keeping force sensitives from going all crazy rear end dark side. This all leads to Anakin's single action of any meaning or real consequence (well other than getting Padme preggers, which would have happened likely happened no matter the Jedi's stance on their relationship) is saving Palpatines life from Mace. All of this of course reinforces the message that the Jedi Order is kind of stupid and broken, I just think it's kind of funny that everything ultimately boils down to this one act by Anakin, Well that and JarJar voting the badguy into forever power for all time.
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Jan 5, 2016 07:24
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Could you say that Anakin became the Christlike figure of Vader on Mustafar? With Obi-wan as his John the Baptism? I am trying to make a baptism by fire joke here.
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Jan 5, 2016 07:28
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Anakin is definitely a Christ like figure, he just doesn't actually complete the full journey until the end of RotJ
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Jan 5, 2016 07:31
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porfiria posted:ANAKIN: Exactly! People buy into the rhetoric of being seduced by power, but Anakin's selfish goal is entirely opposite: he's trying to make himself powerless, freeing himself of responsibility. He wants to escape the burden of being 'the chosen one'. The above speech is Anakin's fantasy of being reduced to a pathetic worm, and - this is what's crucial - the dramatic irony is that he will get exactly what he fantasized about. He's unwittingly predicting his transformation into Vader. "I'm in agony. ... I can't breathe. ... I will do anything that you ask."
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Jan 5, 2016 07:44
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Can Jesus explain the lack of Y-Wings in TFA if they set out to exactly remake ANH? I love me some Y-Wings.
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Jan 5, 2016 09:25
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jeeves posted:Can Jesus explain the lack of Y-Wings in TFA if they set out to exactly remake ANH? The Death Star plot was completely phoned in and they didn't want to spend any more production time than was absolutely neccessary having the X Wings on screen and making a thing explode 
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Jan 5, 2016 12:10
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jeeves posted:Can Jesus explain the lack of Y-Wings in TFA if they set out to exactly remake ANH? Which is made more egregious by the fact the X-wings basically went on bombing runs, a Y-wing specialty. Hell, just replace 3 of the X-wings with Y-wings and have everyone else provide cover.
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Jan 5, 2016 12:37
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Neurolimal posted:And I believe that you are underestimating the common man, in any time period. Obviously they would know less than us, but I doubt that a roman christian, given the choice between a prophet with values in conflict with his self-interest, and a prophet with values that assist their self interests, would flock to the former out of a belief that they are holier; its not like they had some sorth of Faith Liver that attracted them to the most messianic messiah. This is an astonishingly arrogant dismissal of faith and the place it has in religious people's lives.  Please go out and find a Christian and tell them they don't really believe in Jesus' divinity, they just made a beep-boop rational-self-interest libertarian decision to follow the religion that suited them most. Then report back. It will be hilarious.Jesus wept.
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Jan 5, 2016 12:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly! I went and watched the scene where Anakin is knighted as Darth Vader and I'll be damned, he actually does say "I will do whatever you ask" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvWv3uosN9E Nice catch, and a really interesting point
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Jan 5, 2016 13:22
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Xeremides posted:Which is made more egregious by the fact the X-wings basically went on bombing runs, a Y-wing specialty. Hell, just replace 3 of the X-wings with Y-wings and have everyone else provide cover. The Y-wings were obsolete by the time of the Battle of Yavin. Another decade or two would have been ridiculous - it'd be like using A-1 Skyraiders over Syria tomorrow. X-Wings make much more sense since they're multi-role aircraft in the first place. F/A-18 Hornets in ANH, Super Hornets in TFA.
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Jan 5, 2016 13:30
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gradenko_2000 posted:The Y-wings were obsolete by the time of the Battle of Yavin. Another decade or two would have been ridiculous - it'd be like using A-1 Skyraiders over Syria tomorrow. Then replace the Y-Wing with the B-wing in that formation, even though upgrade Y-wings did exist. The F-15 is a decade older than the Super Hornet, and still the better aircraft, so there's a lot one can do in that arena. Hell, we're still using C-130s and intend to continue using them for a long time. I'm just saying, considering the X-wings weren't really doing much, and relied on Poe pulling some video game poo poo, it'd make sense to diversify your forces, especially on what amounted to a bombing run. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jan 5, 2016 |
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Jan 5, 2016 13:45
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I'd agree with B-Wings being a better fit.
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Jan 5, 2016 13:51
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gradenko_2000 posted:I'd agree with B-Wings being a better fit. Honestly, I'd be happy if they threw in literally any other ship. I'm not even sure how much better B-wings are than Y-wings as, according to Wookieepedia, they ended up using upgrading Y-Wings on Endor because of how much B-wings cost, and the structural weaknesses inherent to their design. And somehow, at least one Y-wing pilot was able to down 3 Tie's, despite being the, I guess, Skyraider equivalent in VII. Also, heavy Y-Wing variants exist, and were used by Solo to reclaim Coruscant. Point being, take your oldest ship, strap as many bombs to it as possible, and have the T-70s escort it in it's suicide mission. Just give us more ships.
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Jan 5, 2016 13:59
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