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turtlecrunch posted:I only meant "crappy" because their fleet no longer has any diversity besides x-wings and flying Subway lunchboxes. Would that apply to the First Order as well, though? They're supposedly a shadow of their former selves, and yet they had the capital to construct a planet-sized Deathstar. Still, they only had the one fighter type. For me, there is no meaningful narrative reason for their fleets to be comprised primarily of X-wings and Ties, though I'd rather have missed something than for that to be the case.
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Jan 5, 2016 17:47
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I don't really know what the First Order's strength actually is. The Empire wasn't just that one Death Star, but we don't have extra movies to put FO into more context. We know they have at least one star destroyer, I guess. The opening crawl also says the FO is devoted to killing Luke Skywalker, but they spend the whole movie messing with the Resistance and in fact devote a planetbuster to that end, while only Kylo Ren really cares about getting the map (Hux even lectures him about this, saying Snoke told them to destroy the droid if they need to).
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Jan 5, 2016 17:50
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turtlecrunch posted:I don't really know what the First Order's strength actually is. The Empire wasn't just that one Death Star, but we don't have extra movies to put FO into more context. We know they have at least one star destroyer, I guess. I think one of the PT's strengths was in making it clear what the political landscape was, who the players were, and how certain things fit. I have no idea what the state of things are between the Empire and Republic, or how the Resistance and First Order fit into that. I kind of gathered the Resistance was being half-heartedly supported financially and logistically by the Republic, but the New Order seemed too small to have been considered an existential threat to the Republic (prior to the unveiling of Starkiller), but too big to be ignored. Maybe it's something they go into through a book companion or something, but the film really didn't make a whole lot clear. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jan 5, 2016 |
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Jan 5, 2016 17:54
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Xeremides posted:Would that apply to the First Order as well, though? They're supposedly a shadow of their former selves, and yet they had the capital to construct a planet-sized Deathstar. Still, they only had the one fighter type. For me, there is no meaningful narrative reason for their fleets to be comprised primarily of X-wings and Ties, though I'd rather have missed something than for that to be the case. They bolted a Death Star like weapon onto an existing planet, so who knows if building a giant trench system/superlaser emplacement/etc. that stretches around the equator of a planet is more work than creating a smaller but 100% artificial Death Star.
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Jan 5, 2016 17:59
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Xeremides posted:I think one of the PT's strengths was in making it clear what the political landscape was, who the players were, and how certain things fit. I have no idea what the state of things are between the Empire and Republic, or how the Resistance and First Order fit into that. I kind of gathered the Resistance was being half-heartedly supported financially and logistically by the Republic, but the New Order seemed too small to have been considered an existential threat to the Republic (prior to the unveiling of Starkiller), but too big to be ignored. Maybe it's something they go into through a book companion or something, but the film really didn't make a whole lot clear. Yeah the movie wasn't clear about it at all beyond Republic funds Resistance which fights First Order. Maybe it's heavily relying on us to expect Resistance = Rebels = good guys and First Order = (I hadn't been born when the OT came out so I'm not sure when I first watched it.)
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Jan 5, 2016 18:11
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turtlecrunch posted:Yeah the movie wasn't clear about it at all beyond Republic funds Resistance which fights First Order. Maybe it's heavily relying on us to expect Resistance = Rebels = good guys and First Order = I think an eight-year-old would be especially confused, because how are they going to intuitively assume 'proxy war'? The main issue with the film is that most of the Leia's scenes are cut. She would have been the one trying to warn the Republic, and would ultimately hand Rey the lightsaber at the end of the film as a sort of blessing. In the final cut, Leia's role is "Han's wife".
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Jan 5, 2016 18:49
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Gotta figure they cut Leia's scenes out as an absurd over-reaction to the morons who drone about "politics" in the prequels
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Jan 5, 2016 18:59
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My guess regarding Starkiller Base's mobility was that it was actually a huge ship that they could fly around and then "land" on a planet/moon by essentially digging into the surface, like an oil well or whatever.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:03
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Waffles Inc. posted:Gotta figure they cut Leia's scenes out as an absurd over-reaction to the morons who drone about "politics" in the prequels They probably cut it because it was awkward to watch her mouth move. I love Carrie, but she's had a rough life.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:05
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So I finally got to see the force awakens the other day and I absolutely loved it. It was great. It really made me feel a bit like when I first saw the original trilogy and has actually made me really interested in star wars for the first time in like 15 years. Im so glad that the franchise is back and in such a big way. My only real comment is initially i was really worried that theyre gonna make rey lukes daughter or a skywalker in general, but now that I think of it, having two skywalkers of the same generation duking it out in the ultimate battle to determine who wins the force is pretty cool actually so whatever 
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Jan 5, 2016 19:15
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Solfrann posted:They probably cut it because it was awkward to watch her mouth move. Yeah also this. I didn't even recognise her at first. She looks dreadful 
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Jan 5, 2016 19:16
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Waffles Inc. posted:Gotta figure they cut Leia's scenes out as an absurd over-reaction to the morons who drone about "politics" in the prequels It's that and a number of other factors. By cutting Leia's scenes, the characterization of Maz and Rey is also simplified.  This shot from the trailer shows that there was an alternate ending - Rey gives the sword back to Maz at the end of the film, and then Maz gives it to Leia and says "here, you talk to her" or something. Leia would ultimately be the one who convinces Rey to be a Jedi. The end result is that we would have a much better understanding of how Maz and Rey relate to the Republic/Resistance. In the final cut, Rey just spontaneously loves Luke and goes off to search for him. Leia's all waving as Rey flies away with her husband's car and her brother's sword. These are not plot holes but 'character holes': Rey never really cared about the Jedi. She idolizes Han Solo, the smuggler. Leia's the one who was searching for Luke the entire film. At the end, these roles are inexplicably reversed.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:22
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Xeremides posted:Those are top of the line X-Wings, though. You'd think, if the Republic were just giving the Resistance token support, they'd have given them older generation fighters and bombers, not T-70s. I think the fact that they were, at worst, equal in capability to the Tie's, with the X-wings outclassing them despite being heavily outnumbered, is a testament to their quality, both technologically and in terms of pilots. I think the T-70 is actually an older X-Wing, i seen something about the current model being the T-85. That's all just silly EU stuff though, and has no bearing on the film. Found out they mention it in the prequel book.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:23
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Waffles Inc. posted:Gotta figure they cut Leia's scenes out as an absurd over-reaction to the morons who drone about "politics" in the prequels This is such an awful complaint because the entire point of the prequels is to set up the story of the OT. A huge part of that is showing how the Republic fell to the Empire, which is almost entirely a political issue.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:26
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Sharkopath posted:I think the T-70 is actually an older X-Wing, i seen something about the current model being the T-85. I looked it up, and you're on the money, though it looks to be more important than typical EU stuff since it's a direct prequel to the film. T-85s were used by Poe and his squadron while working for the Republic. So now I'm left wondering why the New Order is using fighters that are equal to or worse than T-70s, while still being able to afford to build a planet-sized Deathstar.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:28
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corn in the fridge posted:Yeah also this. I didn't even recognise her at first. She looks dreadful The sad part is she looks better than she has in years. Xeremides posted:I looked it up, and you're on the money, though it looks to be more important than typical EU stuff since it's a direct prequel to the film. T-85s were used by Poe and his squadron while working for the Republic. So now I'm left wondering why the New Order is using fighters that are equal to or worse than T-70s, while still being able to afford to build a planet-sized Deathstar. They can only afford old TIE fighters specifically because they spent all that money on a planet-sized DeathStar.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:28
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Krispy Kareem posted:The sad part is she looks better than she has in years. That sounds more like a rationalization than a narrative-based reason for only including two kinds of fighters in the film. And hell, if having interceptors was too much of an issue, at least add proper AA to your weak point instead of relying on inferior fighters that just happen to be the equal of whatever the resistance is using.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's that and a number of other factors. By cutting Leia's scenes, the characterization of Maz and Rey is also simplified. You are kind of ignoring how she holds out the saber in kind of a desperate "please take this from me" gesture. The opening act also shows she has a lot of interest in Luke and the force, thinking he was a legend and asking with wide eyes if it was all true.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:36
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Or maybe the TIEs and even T-70s are perfectly fine fighters and the T-85 is the result of corrupt Republic Pork Belly politics and defense procurement contracting.  The gist I've gotten from the movie and supplemental material so far is "Meet the new Republic, same as the old Republic."
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Jan 5, 2016 19:37
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I mostly just hope that when Kasdan mentioned the script Rian was working on being really weird it wasn't an empty platitude. Its a fun movie as a setup and contained adventure but I really miss that feeling of mystery and the sense that everything you see is a small part of a much larger world. Obi Wan's line about taking a first step into a larger world is something that stuck with me when thinking about how the setting and environment unfolds in the original movies. The world in the movie was exciting, but feels very similar to the world we've already been to, so there wasn't much that surprised.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:38
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All of you people shocked at Carrie Fischer's audacity to humanly age are assholes.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:39
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Neo Rasa posted:This is something the Clone Wars series is amazing with. You can see Obi-Wan/etc. being huge hypocrites all day, being super chivalrous and honorable knights when it's time to talk that then slink out of taking action or actually helping people all the time with legal loopholes and "well a true Jedi wouldn't interfere with..." and it does a great job of planting the seeds of why the Jedi are a bunch of chumps and why anyone in Anakin's position would make the same choices and have the same frustrations. His loyalty to his friends also makes it much easier to buy him as this charismatic character that rises in the ranks quickly and knows that he knows how good he is. Also episodes with a lot of frustration about how the Jedi view the clones and droids as slaves incapable of agency and so on. They have a couple lines in the films (aggressive negotiations, or Anakin's problems with Obi-Wan's criticism of R2 are brief examples of this) but yeah, they don't really give that stuff time to breathe.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:40
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Carrie Fisher is still a goddess at three times the age she was in A New Hope, and I don't see you guys slagging off Very Old Man Harrison Ford.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:40
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Speaking of Old-man Han, was I the only one who noticed the severity of the scars on his chin kept changing? I swear they did...
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Jan 5, 2016 19:41
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Waffles Inc. posted:Gotta figure they cut Leia's scenes out as an absurd over-reaction to the morons who drone about "politics" in the prequels More likely it's a 2 hour and fifteen minute movie that feels breathlessly paced. They took out scenes that didn't barrel the story forward at the same breakneck rate. EDIT: Also, Carrie Fisher is loving awesome.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:43
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Rick posted:They have a couple lines in the films (aggressive negotiations, or Anakin's problems with Obi-Wan's criticism of R2 are brief examples of this) but yeah, they don't really give that stuff time to breathe. Granted I've only seen like the first five episodes of Clone Wars but in them Yoda, Bug faced Mask Jedi guy, Obi Won, and Anakin were all emphasising to the clone troopers that they were individuals and not expendable.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:44
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Xeremides posted:That sounds more like a rationalization than a narrative-based reason for only including two kinds of fighters in the film. And hell, if having interceptors was too much of an issue, at least add proper AA to your weak point instead of relying on inferior fighters that just happen to be the equal of whatever the resistance is using. Oh, I agree with you. Simplifying the fleets seems like a cop out. I guess you can maybe justify the arc from lots of shiny and sleek ships in the PT to rougher looking battered ships in the OT to a whole lot fewer varieties in TFA. After a couple of generations of your best ships becoming scrap you focus on only a few models. And they don't need proper AA because they have shields and shields never go out. greatn posted:All of you people shocked at Carrie Fischer's audacity to humanly age are assholes. Hey, I love Carrie Fisher. buy she didn't look the part anymore. Most princesses don't look like pre-TFA Carrie Fisher unless they're forest princesses or druids. I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of her walking around in public wearing a muumuu. Brando is the only actor who could pull that off and still get work.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:46
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She is not a princess, she is a general. 
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Jan 5, 2016 19:47
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Krispy Kareem posted:Hey, I love Carrie Fisher. buy she didn't look the part anymore. Most princesses don't look like pre-TFA Carrie Fisher unless they're forest princesses or druids. I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of her walking around in public wearing a muumuu. Brando is the only actor who could pull that off and still get work. Hey, gently caress you. Galaga Galaxian posted:She is not a princess, she is a general.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:48
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You want them to recast her with Daphne Zuniga?
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Jan 5, 2016 19:48
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Xeremides posted:I looked it up, and you're on the money, though it looks to be more important than typical EU stuff since it's a direct prequel to the film. T-85s were used by Poe and his squadron while working for the Republic. So now I'm left wondering why the New Order is using fighters that are equal to or worse than T-70s, while still being able to afford to build a planet-sized Deathstar. Where do you get the impression that the FO's tech isn't uniformly advanced?
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Jan 5, 2016 19:49
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Krispy Kareem posted:Hey, I love Carrie Fisher. buy she didn't look the part anymore. Most princesses don't look like pre-TFA Carrie Fisher unless they're forest princesses or druids. I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of her walking around in public wearing a muumuu. Brando is the only actor who could pull that off and still get work. She wasn't asked to look like she did in ANH because she was playing the character 30 years later. Women age, deal with it.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:50
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Shoren posted:This is such an awful complaint because the entire point of the prequels is to set up the story of the OT. A huge part of that is showing how the Republic fell to the Empire, which is almost entirely a political issue. This doesn't mean the politics have to be dull, lacking in any relateable protagonist, and then skip large amounts of it to get to space-Venice (which was a few clear plastic instruments away from being a star trek set)
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Jan 5, 2016 19:50
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Krispy Kareem posted:Hey, I love Carrie Fisher. buy she didn't look the part anymore. Most princesses don't look like pre-TFA Carrie Fisher unless they're forest princesses or druids. I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of her walking around in public wearing a muumuu. Brando is the only actor who could pull that off and still get work. Most princesses haven't been fighting and leading a war against space nazis
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Jan 5, 2016 19:51
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For anyone who enjoyed the movie or are interested in the development process, I highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens/dp/1419717804/ It's really interesting. It features a ton of concept artwork, divided out in a timeline by each month during the development process. It also includes a fair amount of production information for each month, where they were in the process, what was changed/dropped and what hurdles they faced. Also outlines how some of the main characters changed, like how Finn and Poe both had some drastic differences. "Kira" aka Rey however, seemed to be the same for most of the process. For those complaining about the "sameness" of the planets, in pre-production they were actually way out there, being more similar to the prequels with some of the locales and vistas. Such that the budget would have either been enormous or had a ton of extended green screen sets like the prequels. Had set pieces like huge alien bazaars, jungle-like forests with gigantic trees, and the giant mushroom planet Felucia was also going to be visited. The artwork for the Arndt script also appears to use several of the ideas the final script uses, which I found surprising since I thought it was more or less dumped. Also get some good concept art for the "Jedi Killer" which develops into Kylo Ren. It looks like some of his designs were later used for the Knights of Ren.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:51
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Krispy Kareem posted:Hey, I love Carrie Fisher. buy she didn't look the part anymore. Most princesses don't look like pre-TFA Carrie Fisher unless they're forest princesses or druids. I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of her walking around in public wearing a muumuu. Brando is the only actor who could pull that off and still get work. What does 'looking the part' mean? Leia Organa aged 30 years, Han Solo aged 30 years, Luke Skywalker aged 30 years. They all look like themselves aged 30 years (plus a car accident in Luke's case, plus a fistful of coke per day in Leia's case and plus 30 years of disdain and misery in Han's case).
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Jan 5, 2016 19:52
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Carrie Fisher looked great in this movie. When she first steps off the spaceship she looks the part of the haggard military commander but she still has some regal stature. As von Sydow's character says, "to me, she'll always be royalty."
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Jan 5, 2016 19:52
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Sorry guys, but women on camera must be under 40 or over 70. A generic Old has no place on the stage unless you can pull a Maggie Smith or the silly grandma from Wedding Singer and Wedding Crashers who has been playing a 90 year old since she was 50.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:55
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If I can look this good at 59, I'll be over the forest moon.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:57
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Beeez posted:This article might be interesting for some people, Cnut and SMG in particular might like it. The movie is about the interaction between the old and new generation, and how the results of the past have shaped the future that the new generation must deal with. Nothing is trampled on. Han and Leia's romance is realized with Kylo (who's actions are influenced by every one of the old generation), Luke stops the Empire and brings substantial peace to the galaxy, creating a new jedi council and living life in a way natural to -his- older generation. Han's entire arc in the film consists of trying to bury his past and accepting that he must face it. You can like the prequels and not be insane or demand inoffensive mediocrity. E: Carrie looked amazing considering her past and did a great job. You are uncomfortable with her because you are used to Hollywood pairing 18-25 year old women with 35+ year old men. The sight of Han with a woman his age makes you uncomfortable.
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Jan 5, 2016 19:58
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