Tesseraction posted:

Oh good we've had incestchat and now its antispawnerchat.

hookerbot 5000 posted:

whatever the hell we are blood.

Oberleutnant posted:

If you haven't read it already Discipline & Punish is a real good examination of the transition from feudal to modern methods of judicial punishment and which necessarily spends a good deal of time on the focus which modern penal institutions put on disciplining and integrating the prisoner (including those imprisoned for the crime of being poor) to existence in capitalist society as an obedient worker.

Guavanaut posted:

We're communists blood.
I can't be the only one that remembers the threadchat ages ago about a modern replacement for comrade.

Guavanaut posted:

Guavanaut posted:

We're communists blood.
I can't be the only one that remembers the threadchat ages ago about a modern replacement for comrade.

hookerbot 5000 posted:

I don't think many people think about it in terms of continuing their line, or creating miniature versions of themselves for the good of humanity or any of that. They just want to have children.

Prince John posted:

Is there a thread-approved better solution than this? Aside from the tabloid pandering about wanting "two years of hell" which isn't constructive, an intensive residential course for criminal families to be taught basic life skills , parenting skills and job hunting skills sounds pretty useful. Removing them from the estates they terrorise would have a dramatic improvement on crime and quality of life for the remaining law abiding residents as an added bonus. As long as the focus was truly on rehabilitation, we haven't got much to lose (and don't some Nordic countries already try something similar?)

As the article says, constantly jailing perpetual reoffenders doesn't actually solve anything, and this would have the additional benefit of avoiding children being taken into care, which often has terrible outcomes in any case.

I've been hearing a lot of (first-hand) social work stories lately and the trends identified here are certainly duplicated in at least three other areas of the UK. Inevitably there are one or two families responsible for the majority of crime and antisocial behaviour on a particular street, the parents and children are utterly without the most basic of life skills, and prison and extensive contact with social workers has little/no effect on behaviour.

Some of the life stories are beyond shocking, so I'm very much coming at this from a sympathetic rather than a blaming point of view, but I never seem to hear any strong voices on the left advocating radical solutions for those that have been truly left behind by society. From a cost:benefit point of view, even expensive solutions must surely be worth it in view of the disproportionate impact the most dysfunctional members of society have on society at large.

OwlFancier posted:

Blood is fun but I would feel a bit silly saying it to my nan.

Tesseraction posted:

Probably less awkward than calling her a crip.

OwlFancier posted:

Blood is fun but I would feel a bit silly saying it to my nan.

Prince John posted:

Is there a thread-approved better solution than this?

Tesseraction posted:

Probably less awkward than calling her a crip.

Pissflaps posted:

You don't feel silly saying comrade to her?

OwlFancier posted:

Given that she told me recently to keep the red flag flying and lectured me at age ten on the benefits of communism and the dangers of stalinism, possibly not.

Prince John posted:

Is there a thread-approved better solution than this? Aside from the tabloid pandering about wanting "two years of hell" which isn't constructive, an intensive residential course for criminal families to be taught basic life skills , parenting skills and job hunting skills sounds pretty useful. Removing them from the estates they terrorise would have a dramatic improvement on crime and quality of life for the remaining law abiding residents as an added bonus. As long as the focus was truly on rehabilitation, we haven't got much to lose (and don't some Nordic countries already try something similar?)

As the article says, constantly jailing perpetual reoffenders doesn't actually solve anything, and this would have the additional benefit of avoiding children being taken into care, which often has terrible outcomes in any case.

I've been hearing a lot of (first-hand) social work stories lately and the trends identified here are certainly duplicated in at least three other areas of the UK. Inevitably there are one or two families responsible for the majority of crime and antisocial behaviour on a particular street, the parents and children are utterly without the most basic of life skills, and prison and extensive contact with social workers has little/no effect on behaviour.

Some of the life stories are beyond shocking, so I'm very much coming at this from a sympathetic rather than a blaming point of view, but I never seem to hear any strong voices on the left advocating radical solutions for those that have been truly left behind by society. From a cost:benefit point of view, even expensive solutions must surely be worth it in view of the disproportionate impact the most dysfunctional members of society have on society at large.

OwlFancier posted:

lectured me at age ten on the benefits of communism and the dangers of stalinism,

Cerv posted:

is that a fancy way of saying she told you to share your toys?

Milotic posted:

I'm not questioning his principles, but he seems to be a really loving awful manager.

Prince John posted:

Is there a thread-approved better solution than this? Aside from the tabloid pandering about wanting "two years of hell" which isn't constructive, an intensive residential course for criminal families to be taught basic life skills , parenting skills and job hunting skills sounds pretty useful. Removing them from the estates they terrorise would have a dramatic improvement on crime and quality of life for the remaining law abiding residents as an added bonus. As long as the focus was truly on rehabilitation, we haven't got much to lose (and don't some Nordic countries already try something similar?)

As the article says, constantly jailing perpetual reoffenders doesn't actually solve anything, and this would have the additional benefit of avoiding children being taken into care, which often has terrible outcomes in any case.

I've been hearing a lot of (first-hand) social work stories lately and the trends identified here are certainly duplicated in at least three other areas of the UK. Inevitably there are one or two families responsible for the majority of crime and antisocial behaviour on a particular street, the parents and children are utterly without the most basic of life skills, and prison and extensive contact with social workers has little/no effect on behaviour.

Some of the life stories are beyond shocking, so I'm very much coming at this from a sympathetic rather than a blaming point of view, but I never seem to hear any strong voices on the left advocating radical solutions for those that have been truly left behind by society. From a cost:benefit point of view, even expensive solutions must surely be worth it in view of the disproportionate impact the most dysfunctional members of society have on society at large.

Milotic posted:

I also don't think any of the senior cabinet will break for the No campaign.

OwlFancier posted:

On the contrary maybe that he is apparently taking time and talking to everyone in confidence about it means he's a really good manager and I would rather see that than someone who just fires people willy nilly and decides everything arbitrarily?

If he wants a cabinet he can stick with he should take as long as he needs to find it. A few days of media crying is far less probematic than a lovely cabinet, as the point of a reshuffle would be to fix the lovely cabinet I would hope he'd do it properly so he doesn't have to do it in future.

If he has to have another one further down the line he's going to get accused of not knowing what he's doing then anyway.

OwlFancier posted:

Hehe, constant intercourse within the community.

Oberleutnant posted:

Re: Norway. They have little prison islands where the prisoners live independently in their own little houses with 2 or 3 other prisoners and are trained in real vocations. I think the guards aren't even on the island most of the time. It has a good record as I recall. One story that always sticks with me is a guy who murdered 2 or 3 people with a chainsaw being trained as a lumberjack while he was there. It just always tickled me in some dreadful way.

Cerv posted:

i'll take that bet

Oberleutnant posted:

I basically agree that better living conditions, a sense of meaning and community will do a lot to ensure that people don't (and don't need) to turn to crime. But I can never quite shake the fear that some people are just assholes for a reason that maybe we aren't yet able to unpick - or maybe for obvious reasons. You can maybe ensure that a child has food and clothing and a roof over its head, but can you guarantee it a happy, stable, nurturing environment to grow up in? Are those things necessary to "goodness"? Life's too loving complicated, maaan.

Oberleutnant posted:

I basically agree that better living conditions, a sense of meaning and community will do a lot to ensure that people don't (and don't need) to turn to crime. But I can never quite shake the fear that some people are just assholes for a reason that maybe we aren't yet able to unpick - or maybe for obvious reasons. You can maybe ensure that a child has food and clothing and a roof over its head, but can you guarantee it a happy, stable, nurturing environment to grow up in? Are those things necessary to "goodness"? Life's too loving complicated, maaan.

Milotic posted:

It's best to get through reshuffles quickly, so you can get back to communicating policy and also so you don't look weak. By the sounds of it, it would have been better to sit everyone down one by one or all together and told to shut up with the public and overt dissent. Also a reshuffle after 4 months isn't great optics. Discussion amongst the (shadow) cabinet is great, but there's a reason why the public shouldn't see it.

OwlFancier posted:

Maybe some people are just assholes, but I would be willing to bet that there are far few people who are just assholes than there are people who become assholes by circumstance.

Milotic posted:

Osborne will side with Cameron, Hammond will. May is the wildcard. She's the one who gets it in the next over immigration. But she won't want to be seen to be the one who sticks the knife in Cameron's back. Ah bugger, are we counting IDS as a senior member? Yeah, he'll break for No.

Oberleutnant posted:

But then again maybe not. I've not had the opportunity to delve into this in any detail, it's just half-arsed thoughts.

Cerv posted:

yeah, i was thinking we'd count DWP as senior. Health too, but I've no idea who's going to be in Hunt's job by the time the referendum comes round after the junior doctors strike

LemonDrizzle posted:

Justice Leader of the Commons probably counts as "senior" too, and Grayling is a dead cert to campaign to leave.

OwlFancier posted:

Though as cameron's jumping ship soon I wonder if one of the other possible successor figures may attract a potential set of toadies if they campaign to leave.

Oberleutnant posted:

100% agreed. I'm assuming the natural assholes are a minuscule percentage of the population.

Oberleutnant posted:

Social discipline is one of those really interesting points to consider when approaching Leftist thought because while the entire left is basically agreed on broad-stroke economics, approaches to individual liberty run the full gamut from anarchist conceptions of the inviolable sovereignty of the individual to full authoritarianism. I know UKMT is very leftist but I'd be surprised if any kind of thread consensus would emerge on that point for that reason.

A while ago when we were talking about Anarchism (like a month or two back) I remarked on what I considered the naive belief among anarchists that community opprobrium would be enough to regulate the behavior of its members without any coercive judicial power - basically peer pressure. I thought it unrealistic because I've basically never seen it work in my own experience - and I've lived for most of my life on exactly the sorts of grey, ugly council estates where one or two families cause endless misery for everybody else. But on reflection, I don't think I've ever lived in a "community" where I knew my neighbours, or felt in any way a part of a communal existence, and I think that's regarded as a fairly common complaint of modern life.
But in the sort of community envisaged by Anarchist and Communist thought - in which people are necessarily constantly engaged in their local community because there is no state superstructure - perhaps that constant intercourse within a community would be enough to promote the sort of civil solidarity that would be able to moderate the behaviour of the worst members.

But then again maybe not. I've not had the opportunity to delve into this in any detail, it's just half-arsed thoughts.

Re: Norway. They have little prison islands where the prisoners live independently in their own little houses with 2 or 3 other prisoners and are trained in real vocations. I think the guards aren't even on the island most of the time. It has a good record as I recall. One story that always sticks with me is a guy who murdered 2 or 3 people with a chainsaw being trained as a lumberjack while he was there. It just always tickled me in some dreadful way.

Milotic posted:

You could split hairs about it - Leader of the Commons is seems to be used as a sop you give to senior people you don't want around anymore. But yeah, IDS will certainly break my bet. I don't think Hunt will. He's a cannier politician than that, and he knows he needs to keep his mouth shut in order to keep his job if the strike goes ahead. Cameron does tend to reward loyalty.