|
zoux posted:Shall we make an itemized list of the ways in which the MU violates actual realpolitik? It's a bit more of a problem when the comic is trying to use American politics and laws as the basis for its main plot. Unless you're serious, in which case I'm pretty sure my best friend already did that for shits and giggles. He pulled out the Civil War-specific examples when we reviewed it on the podcast.
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 03:44 |
|
|
No thanks, I don't find anything quite so pedantic and tiresome as lists of how fictional works aren't the same as irl. That comes across more condescending than I mean to but I don't know how Civil War #2: The Committee Process sells a lot of books. zoux fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jan 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:24
|
|
|
Madkal posted:Plus Ray doesn't seem like the person who would carry a flamethrower for no reason...... Some people prefer butter pecan. Everybody besides Deathstroke felt like a human being in that book. I don't remember Identity Crisis for the stupid plot or the stupid action scenes (Flash punking Merlyn was fun though), I remember it for "Some things are bigger than Batman.", and that Superman's mom can wound the Man of Steel by saying "I'll send it out again. You can't stop me." When she insists on paying for her Daily Planet subscription, or "I bet Batman doesn't treat his mother this way." The way it invests you in characters you might be unfamiliar with is probably lost on people who knew these characters front and back, but at the time I was only just getting into DC with Hush, Superman/Batman, and Teen Titans. It was my first real introduction to characters like Elongated Man and Green Arrow. It also helped humanize Superman to someone who was a lifelong Batman rules Superman drools type of fan.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
zoux posted:No thanks, I don't find anything quite so pedantic and tiresome as lists of how fictional works aren't the same as irl. I'm sure there's a middle ground between "Congressional Committee: The Comic Book" and "A five-year-old's understanding of American law". I'm convinced that if Soule had written the original Civil War we would have found that middle ground. Not that he's the only writer who could do it. There's a list as long as my arm of writers who could've done it better than Millar, and it includes the likes of Dan Slott. I have a very low opinion of Millar though, so I might be biased. haitfais fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jan 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
Chaos Hippy posted:I'm sure there's a middle ground between "Congressional Committee: The Comic Book" and "A five-year-old's understanding of American law". I'm convinced that if Soule had written the original Civil War we would have found that middle ground. Not that he's the only writer who could do it. There's a list as long as my arm of writers who could've done it better than Millar, and it includes the likes of Dan Slott. If Civil War had happened in Slott's She-Hulk, it would have been a hell of a lot more fun.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:55
|
|
|
Dan Slott could not have done it, that kind of book does not play to his strengths.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:55
|
|
|
It literally doesn't matter how government works for the narrative. All that matters is that the law exists. While there may be an interesting story in how such a law would be debated and horse traded in the 616, that isn't what the story is about, the story is about security vs liberty. But, what are the problems with government in the book it's been a while since I read it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:57
|
|
|
The major issue with Civil War is that it is one of the navel-wanking books about the status quo that can't actually say anything because the status quo can't ever get a long meaningful change. "The universe is populated by superhuman beings with godlike powers, what does this mean for society and how do people respond to it?" is interesting but not when the answer is "we can never actually meaningfully change very much from modern-day America."
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
Millar should never be expected to write subtle. Guy comes up with interesting concepts and fight scenes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
zoux posted:It literally doesn't matter how government works for the narrative. All that matters is that the law exists. While there may be an interesting story in how such a law would be debated and horse traded in the 616, that isn't what the story is about, the story is about security vs liberty. Like them attacking Captain America for not supporting the law before the law is passed?
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:Like them attacking Captain America for not supporting the law before the law is passed? You don't ever read conservative Twitter huh?
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
zoux posted:You don't ever read conservative Twitter huh? He means a government organisation (SHIELD), physically attacking and attempting to detain Cap for not supporting a law that does not actually exist yet. Edit: And then there's the extradimensional black site prison where dissidents are detained indefinitely without trial. But that one's not really a realism problem since those are a real enough thing that we have a phrase like "black site" to describe them. The problem there is more of a character problem, in that the extremely unethical superhero Gitmo was built and run by Reed Richards and Tony Stark. haitfais fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:03
|
|
|
Chaos Hippy posted:He means a government organisation (SHIELD), physically attacking and attempting to detain Cap for not supporting a law that does not actually exist yet. Well that sounds SHIELD as gently caress tbh. So what are the realism problems then?
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:11
|
|
|
zoux posted:Well that sounds SHIELD as gently caress tbh. Well attacking someone before a law goes into effect is not something that SHIELD usually does. Its also Captain America a loyal agent and a hero. Reed Richards is sending his friends to the negative zone, a hellhole of unimaginable terrors.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:22
|
|
|
Also the narrative expects that you'll treat both sides as having valid arguments and being somewhat in the right even as Tony Stark literally enlists Elektra and Venom in his slave army and Reed has his friends tortured.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
These are characterization issues, not realism ones. I've already said what I think about the characterizations and I think the aftermath demonstrates that pretty much everyone went way farther than they meant to in the heat of it all. Also Elektra and Venom fighting for the good guys! What is this unprecedented poo poo! Making tenuous and temporary alliances with villains has never happened before!
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:31
|
|
|
Elektra is not an issue as she has worked for Shield a bunch. However, appointing Normal Osborne to lead the Thunderbolts. A man well known for his sanity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:37
|
|
|
Osborne might be crazy but more importantly he's a rich white guy and therefore more deserving of second chances. How could somebody who made that much money not be moral? God would have made him poor if he was a bad person.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:49
|
|
|
SirDan3k posted:Osborne might be crazy but more importantly he's a rich white guy and therefore more deserving of second chances. So its his right as a rich white man to sleep with the deceased police officers daughter!
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 21:53
|
|
|
SirDan3k posted:How could somebody who made that much money not be moral? God would have made him poor if he was a bad person. That's literally why Ditko didn't want him as the Goblin.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 22:00
|
|
|
It should be noted just before Civil War, Norman was publicly cleared of the Green Goblin identity. It was in The Pulse.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 23:20
|
|
|
zoux posted:Shall we make an itemized list of the ways in which the MU violates actual realpolitik? Law And The Multiverse is usually a pretty good read and it has some entries on this exact topic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 00:12
|
|
|
During the run-up to Civil War, I didn't understand why Marvel hadn't just gotten some of their in-house lawyers to take a few fun days and actually write the drat law so they could post it on the Internet; that was before anything had been released and it was a bit difficult arguing about a thing everyone was just imagining their version of. After the fact, it was obvious that they didn't do that because everybody was just imagining their own versions of the law internally as well. So now I think it was a huge missed opportunity. Have the writers tell the lawyers what the act is supposed to do, have the lawyers play Pretend Congress and write it up, and now you actually have something solid to base all the stories on and all the nerds on the Internet can have fun looking for loopholes and arguing implementation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 00:27
|
|
|
CapnAndy posted:Also the narrative expects that you'll treat both sides as having valid arguments and being somewhat in the right even as Tony Stark literally enlists Elektra and Venom in his slave army and Reed has his friends tortured. The whole Green Goblin / Atlantean plot, if nothing else, goes well beyond "momentary lapse in judgement", in any case.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 00:41
|
|
|
CapnAndy posted:During the run-up to Civil War, I didn't understand why Marvel hadn't just gotten some of their in-house lawyers to take a few fun days and actually write the drat law so they could post it on the Internet; that was before anything had been released and it was a bit difficult arguing about a thing everyone was just imagining their version of. I imagine Marvel's lawyers are probably all commercial lawyers rather than constitutional lawyers, though. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 01:00
|
|
|
And all the unambiguously villainous stuff (extraordinary rendition to an extradimensional prison for an unspecified term, psychotic criminals as hero-hunters, immediately try to kill Spider-Man when you just *think* he might defect) was in the main Civil War series too, which is why the "it's the fault of the tie-ins" never held water for me. The whole thing was botched from beginning to end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 01:51
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine Marvel's lawyers are probably all commercial lawyers rather than constitutional lawyers, though. They're still a poo poo ton more qualified to write it than comic book writers. Though I'm guessing at least one of the reasons they didn't do that is lawyers cost a poo poo ton more an hour than comic book writers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 02:32
|
|
prefect posted:Is this Bagley art? There are only a few artists I can reliably identify, but this looks like Ultimate Spider-Man to me: I forgot how fugly Ultimate Spidey used to be before they got Bagley off the book. Those humongous eyes...
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 02:48
|
|
|
In order to cover legal fees, all stores that want to be able to order the next issues of Spider-Man, Star Wars or Deadpool will be required to purchase 95,000 copies of Civil War #4.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 02:55
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:I forgot how fugly Ultimate Spidey used to be before they got Bagley off the book. Those humongous eyes... You shut your goddamn mouth.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:07
|
|
Unmature posted:You shut your goddamn mouth. It's not a good design.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:16
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine Marvel's lawyers are probably all commercial lawyers rather than constitutional lawyers, though. Considering their deal with Fox I think Marvel's lawyers were whoever they could pay in expired beer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:24
|
|
SirDan3k posted:Considering their deal with Fox I think Marvel's lawyers were whoever they could pay in expired beer. The ghost of Jack Kirby is laughing his rear end off.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:38
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:They're still a poo poo ton more qualified to write it than comic book writers. Though I'm guessing at least one of the reasons they didn't do that is lawyers cost a poo poo ton more an hour than comic book writers. gently caress, if Civil War 2 involves any legal stuff, just ask Soule to sit down for a few days and bash out a rough idea of what it is. (What's his specialty, anyway?) Unmature posted:You shut your goddamn mouth. Seconded. Bagley's basically the artist I imagine in my head when I think of 'superhero'.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:43
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:It's not a good design. I dont think the design is the thing to single out, in costume it's identical to his 616 Spiderman work. The problem is more that it's Bagley drawing it. Apparently he's a workhorse who can draw three comic books a month, but at what cost. Gaz-L posted:Bagley's basically the artist I imagine in my head when I think of 'superhero'. For me that is probably Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez purple death ray fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jan 6, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:45
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Bagley's basically the artist I imagine in my head when I think of 'superhero'. He doesn't even make my top 30.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:49
|
|
|
SirDan3k posted:Considering their deal with Fox I think Marvel's lawyers were whoever they could pay in expired beer. They made those deals when they were a hair breadth from just shutting down and having a fire sale for their IP, so you might be closer to the truth than you realize.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 03:51
|
|
|
I got a huge crazy ultimate edition Final Crisis book for Christmas - I've been putting off FC because I know there's a huge reading list to get the background knowledge to get the most out of it, and being a big fan of Morrison I want to really do it justice. My questions are 1) does anyone have the recommended reading list/order handy, and 2) is there an easy way to read them via a digital storefront/service on the cheap, a la Netflix for comics? I have the first volume of Seven Soldiers of Victory and a few Fourth World books somewhere but they're shamefully unread at the moment and buried in a storage unit somewhere until I move.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2016 03:41
|
|
|
Seven Soldiers of Victory: Mister Miracle #1-4, but you really don't need to read it. Just dive right into Final Crisis. Death of the New Gods and Countdown to Final Crisis should be banished to the phantom zone for crimes against good comics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2016 04:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 03:44 |
|
|
Final Crisis is a re-reader, so feel free to jump in blind at first. Unless the first thing you find is that you hate it and never want to read it again, you'll still have things to find and connect on subsequent reads regardless of how much prep you put in.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2016 04:17
|
|
