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PT6A posted:I'm supposed to feel better solely because they only knew they wanted to kill people and destroy things, not which people/things they wished to target specifically? No, you're not supposed to feel better, but you might hypothetically feel some outrage that a government agency took a couple of incompetents and crafted a terror campaign for them to carry out, then held their hand though the process so they wouldn't just wonder off when they lost interest.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:14
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I feel like I'm usually first to sign up for the bleeding hearts brigade in CanPol but I honestly don't feel bad at all for the would be terrorists who got caught. Even if they had limited mental capacity I feel like they were functional enough that we can expect them to understand a concept like "murder is wrong". If it were up to me I'd abolish the RCMP and pour money into mental healthcare, harm reduction and anti-poverty initiatives, but I'm not going to lose sleep over these two going to prison. They got a raw deal but unless literally everything I've read about this story is a lie then they displayed enough competence and enough intent that I just cannot feel sympathy for them. THC posted:It can be all three at once. Of course, it's just telling which issues we focus on.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:16
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You literally can't comprehend how two innocent mentally unsound people being goaded into trying to commit a terrorist act by an organization dedicating millions of dollars and thousands of man hours, an organization tasked with protecting citizens including mentally ill ones, would be considered by some to be a piece of poo poo scheme. You bet I'm calling you a sociopath. On several occasions you have shown a complete inability to empathise with others on almost any level.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:16
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We should extend the dragnet to include children. I hear many of them don't even understand the concept of murder. How monstrous, lock 'em up!
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Jan 7, 2016 19:19
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Helsing posted:I feel like I'm usually first to sign up for the bleeding hearts brigade in CanPol but I honestly don't feel bad at all for the would be terrorists who got caught. Even if they had limited mental capacity I feel like they were functional enough that we can expect them to understand a concept like "murder is wrong". Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:20
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PT6A posted:No, but they should be protected from themselves. If they are mentally unfit to live alone, they should have access to an assisted living facility or some form of home-care, because they are a risk to themselves. Holding an opinion and having the means to actually carry it out are two very different things, though. Does someone who is physically unable to move or speak belong in jail because his only wish in this life is to kill everyone from Switzerland? What if the RCMP showed up, glued a knife to his hand and swung his arm around in a pastry shop? Where's the line between being an actual threat and being some putz with a stupid idea that the state helpfully swoops in and facilitates for you? If they were dangerous then there was no need for the eight-figure guided terrorism seminar; they should've been spirited away to whatever place was best-suited to fixing them, and if the mechanism to do that didn't exist then it should've been created. Instead, we chose to give them the power to be dangerous and then lock them up for having it. It's an absurd kind of entrapment.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:20
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Helsing posted:I feel like I'm usually first to sign up for the bleeding hearts brigade in CanPol but I honestly don't feel bad at all for the would be terrorists who got caught. Even if they had limited mental capacity I feel like they were functional enough that we can expect them to understand a concept like "murder is wrong". I don't have a specific issue with the couple being incarcerated in one form or another, my problem is the manner in which the RCMP went about it, and what that says about their motives and use of resources. For example, I don't feel much safer knowing that an organization in charge of law enforcement is targeting people they feel may commit terrorist acts, and them presenting them with help and support to commit a terrorist act, so they can jump out from behind the bushes and yell Gotcha!
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Jan 7, 2016 19:21
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sliderule posted:We should extend the dragnet to include children. I hear many of them don't even understand the concept of murder. How monstrous, lock 'em up! You're making ridiculous comparisons now. You are correct that children don't understand certain concepts depending on age, and that's why they have their rights abridged and also have parents or guardians to make sure they don't do any sort of really bad poo poo! That's exactly the point I'm trying to make: if you fail to understand that murder and terrorism are wrong, you cannot be permitted full participation in society.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:23
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sliderule posted:We should extend the dragnet to include children. I hear many of them don't even understand the concept of murder. How monstrous, lock 'em up! This is like something out of the 1930s or the Deep South.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:25
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PT6A posted:if you fail to understand that murder and terrorism are wrong, you cannot be permitted full participation in society. Says the guy who's okay with bombing civilians.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:28
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Helsing posted:Unless literally everything I've read about this story is a lie then they displayed enough competence and enough intent that I just cannot feel sympathy for them. That's fair. I just read about how a guy planning to build rockets out of cowshit and launch them at Parliament from Victoria, or hijacking a submarine, and then the cop says "I like this pressure cooker thing [that I literally just suggested to you] a lot. I think it is feasible. It’s exciting. You know you can do it.” and I see a state actor guiding someone from insane raving that would get him formed towards an actual, focused plan that stands a very good chance of succeeding and getting somebody locked up or shot. He believed he was a jihadi terrorist and he wanted to do these things even if he had no idea how. If that's because he's mentally ill then form him and send him to Penetang. If it's because he's a criminal then use his own crimes to lock him up, don't train him to be a bad guy and then arrest him for being a bad guy. If the RCMP's goal was to get him into prison (which would be pretty messed up) they couldn't have executed the plan worse if they'd filled him with cowshit, pointed him at the pen and held a lighter up to him. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 19:29
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Helsing posted:I feel like I'm usually first to sign up for the bleeding hearts brigade in CanPol but I honestly don't feel bad at all for the would be terrorists who got caught. Even if they had limited mental capacity I feel like they were functional enough that we can expect them to understand a concept like "murder is wrong".
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Jan 7, 2016 19:32
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THC posted:Even a thread superstar can't be right 100% of the time. Actually Helsing is correct as usual, and you are wrong, again, as usual.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:33
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Helsing posted:Of course, it's just telling which issues we focus on. The reason the other two points are brought up is much like in discussions of torture. Some people will never be convinced that torture is morally wrong, but maybe they can be convinced to stop doing it on the basis that it doesn't make us any safer. Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 19:36
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PT6A posted:if you fail to understand that murder and terrorism are wrong, you cannot be permitted full participation in society. THC posted:The guy in charge of the shitshow even was like "hey these guys are literal retards, we need to keep that in mind as we proceed with this operation" PT6A, they weren't capable of understanding anything of the sort. That's not an excuse to trick them into wanting to do a crime and locking the up for it to justify the RCMP's disgusting agenda. You don't get to literally trick the mentally handicapped and go "ruh roh you're a bad person see we told you all along".
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Jan 7, 2016 19:37
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CLAM DOWN posted:PT6A, they weren't capable of understanding anything of the sort. That's not an excuse to trick them into wanting to do a crime and locking the up for it to justify the RCMP's disgusting agenda. You don't get to literally trick the mentally handicapped and go "ruh roh you're a bad person see we told you all along". That's the point I'm trying to make: if you aren't capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, you cannot be allowed to participate in society to the extent of a normal, functional adult. The cause is of no particular consequence. Also, as other people on your side of this argument have pointed out, they wanted to commit a crime before the RCMP ever got involved. It was just a crazy-as-gently caress crime. They would've been a very significant risk if actual terrorists had communicated with them instead of undercover RCMP.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:41
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PT6A posted:Oh okay, I guess we should just let them wander about until they kill someone either on purpose or because they botch another lovely plan. That was never going to happen until the RCMP came along and gave them everything they needed to blow people up, told them to blow people up, and DID ALL THE loving WORK FOR THEM.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:49
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PT6A posted:if you aren't capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, you cannot be allowed to participate in society to the extent of a normal, functional adult. Which restrictions should we place on them? Should they be allowed to breed? How should we test people to determine if they can determine between Objectively Right and Objectively Wrong? Do they get a free prep course? Can they retake the test?
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Jan 7, 2016 19:50
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PT6A posted:That's the point I'm trying to make: if you aren't capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, you cannot be allowed to participate in society to the extent of a normal, functional adult. The cause is of no particular consequence. The solution, on the other hand, matters a great deal. If their only flaw is being suggestible imbeciles then spending a lot of money to make them qualified to go to jail is a less-good idea than sending them to semi-voluntary mental health care to get them sorted out. But that assumes the existence of that kind of care and also marks the point where everyone and I all laugh at the thing I just said.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:50
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Gus Hobbleton posted:That was never going to happen until the RCMP came along and gave them everything they needed to blow people up, told them to blow people up, and DID ALL THE loving WORK FOR THEM. But you see ISIS was waiting in line with similar resources to pour into these outstanding terrorists. Thank god the RCMP got there first.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:51
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Gus Hobbleton posted:That was never going to happen until the RCMP came along and gave them everything they needed to blow people up, told them to blow people up, and DID ALL THE loving WORK FOR THEM. Unless of course an actual terrorist found them. All of the people who went from Calgary to Syria to go fight with Daesh were probably mentally handicapped as well. That doesn't mean they don't present a danger. Do you think terrorist recruiters are looking for intelligent people who think for themselves?
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Jan 7, 2016 19:51
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Helsing posted:I feel like I'm usually first to sign up for the bleeding hearts brigade in CanPol but I honestly don't feel bad at all for the would be terrorists who got caught. Even if they had limited mental capacity I feel like they were functional enough that we can expect them to understand a concept like "murder is wrong". What's that saying about liberals wonder how an issue makes them feel and conservatives wonder if it's correct? I never even considered how I feel about these two people. They're mentally weak ex-heroin junkies who got off the train when they found methadone and Islam. They're walking playdough and I bet thousands of other people could have filled their role. I feel like they were a couple of suggestible drug addicts who got cleaner by associating with a violent cult and then the RCMP comes along and turns that association into action. I'm not sure if I feel bad for them right now but it's hard to judge their character without having quit heroin, I've heard it's pretty tough. I feel bad that they replaced heroin with Islam and got sucked into the more violent aspects instead of just compulsively painting landscapes or something.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:52
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Tsyni posted:But you see ISIS was waiting in line with similar resources to pour into these outstanding terrorists. Thank god the RCMP got there first. PT6A posted:Unless of course an actual terrorist found them. loving neverending lols
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Jan 7, 2016 19:53
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Gus Hobbleton posted:That was never going to happen until the RCMP came along and gave them everything they needed to blow people up, told them to blow people up, and DID ALL THE loving WORK FOR THEM. To PT6A's credit, actual AQ militants would have done the same (assuming they were operating here to that extent), and in other places they are doing that thing right now with other imbeciles. Nuttall & Korody had the intent (even if they weren't legally capable of forming it) and the will, but no loving clue how to go about actually doing it. At issue is how much of an influence the RCMP's investigation had on their plan, and whether that level of influence is an acceptable run-up to arresting someone for doing the thing you're helping them do. I say that it's not, for the same reasons as before: If they are capable of forming the intent and conspiring to do a thing, arrest them for it then and lock them away. If they aren't because they're whacked out on heroin and watching the skies for chemtrails, call the doctor and have his brain untangled.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:54
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Gus Hobbleton posted:loving neverending lols It's not a hypothetical. We know that Daesh and other organizations are recruiting Canadians and other people in western countries.
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Jan 7, 2016 19:54
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Serious question PT6A, do you walk around and see things out of the corner of your eyes that make you feel anxious or afraid for instants at a time? Do you find yourself feeling uneasy at random times? Are you afraid that people are watching you when you're alone?
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Jan 7, 2016 19:55
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Tsyni posted:But you see ISIS was waiting in line with similar resources to pour into these outstanding terrorists. Thank god the RCMP got there first. Gus Hobbleton posted:loving neverending lols You know that this is exactly literally how they work in Western countries, right? quote:The reach of the Islamic State’s recruiting effort has been multiplied by an enormous cadre of operators on social media. The terrorist group itself maintains a 24-hour online operation, and its effectiveness is vastly extended by larger rings of sympathetic volunteers and fans who pass on its messages and viewpoint, reeling in potential recruits, analysts say.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:01
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PT6A posted:It's not a hypothetical. We know that Daesh and other organizations are recruiting Canadians and other people in western countries. but theyre not recruiting people so stupid and incompetent and oh yeah mentally-ill that they cant do any terrorisms at all without having someone else do all the legwork, which kind of poke a hole or two in your insane theory that the rcmp got to them before isis did lmao i cant even type that without laughing at it
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Jan 7, 2016 20:01
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Gus Hobbleton posted:Serious question PT6A, do you walk around and see things out of the corner of your eyes that make you feel anxious or afraid for instants at a time? Do you find yourself feeling uneasy at random times? Are you afraid that people are watching you when you're alone? No to all of the above. I'm not making things up. Daesh really was recruiting Calgarians and other Canadians (one of them a convert) who were (probably) mentally handicapped to go fight in Syria. This is a documented thing that happened, not a paranoid fantasy. Daesh recruited and trained French and Belgian citizens to carry out the attacks in Paris. These are facts that we know, not empty threats. These two people that the RCMP targeted may not have been a threat to anyone on their own, but they quite possibly would have been a threat had they been found by terrorist recruiters, who, yes, absolutely prey on the mentally handicapped and/or children without a second thought. There's no reason to think that Daesh or another group locating these people and using them as tools, precisely as the RCMP did, is particularly far-fetched. As such, they did represent a threat to public safety, and while we spent too much money to catch them, I don't think it's a bad thing that we did catch them. PT6A fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 20:02
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PT6A posted:It's not a hypothetical. We know that Daesh and other organizations are recruiting Canadians and other people in western countries. Okay, so how to we go from this fact to ..therefor the government must get these people to commit fake terror attacks, so that they can arrest them.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:02
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So like, say you have a dude that sorta wants to get his hands on some heroin. He has no idea where to get it, who to talk to, whatever. He just sorta knows that he wants to try heroin. We should probably arrest that dude preemptively because if the police went and gave him the contact information and known location of the local dealer, plus some cash to buy the heroin with, he would probably go buy and use some heroin, right PT6A? People aren't criminals until they commit crimes, hth. I'm pretty sure a non-trivial number of teenagers could be (and probably occasionally are) coerced into doing illegal poo poo, depending on who they're exposed to, and yet we probably should not arrest everyone between the ages of 12-18
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Jan 7, 2016 20:04
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You're right, the terrorists are everywhere, lurking in every bush, twirling their mustaches and giggling with evil glee. Therefore we must commit terrorist acts ourselves so as to... uh.... stop terrorism????
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Jan 7, 2016 20:05
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Gus Hobbleton posted:You're right, the terrorists are everywhere, lurking in every bush, twirling their mustaches and giggling with evil glee. Therefore we must commit terrorist acts ourselves so as to... uh.... stop terrorism???? Hey man did you read the article I linked? It's a good'un
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Jan 7, 2016 20:07
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Jan 7, 2016 20:07
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ChickenWing posted:So like, say you have a dude that sorta wants to get his hands on some heroin. He has no idea where to get it, who to talk to, whatever. He just sorta knows that he wants to try heroin. We should probably arrest that dude preemptively because if the police went and gave him the contact information and known location of the local dealer, plus some cash to buy the heroin with, he would probably go buy and use some heroin, right PT6A? I specifically drew a distinction between murder/terrorism and all other crimes discussing this very issue above. We should, however, try to reach out to people who want to use drugs, especially very addictive drugs like heroin, to see if we can't stop them (by means other than arrest) before they gently caress up their lives and possibly kill themselves. Gus Hobbleton posted:You're right, the terrorists are everywhere, lurking in every bush, twirling their mustaches and giggling with evil glee. I don't think they're lurking in every bush. I think they are operating on Canadian soil and online, as is supported by all the evidence we possess. I think they are trying to recruit people from Western countries. They make absolutely no secret of the fact they're doing this, so it's bizarre you write it off as some sort of paranoia on my part.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:08
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PT6A posted:They wanted to blow up parliament and I'm the sociopath??? You should stick to sharing social conservative garbage on facebook, here is an image to start you off if you haven't already shared/commented/liked/subscribed. 
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Jan 7, 2016 20:09
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I have the feeling that PT6A might commit a crime sometime in the future. We should get him a gun, put it in his hand, and pull the trigger for him. This will prove that he should be locked up forever.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:10
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sure, adopting Literal Thoughtcrime Policies is good and just if the thoughts are naughty enough, okay, whatever
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Jan 7, 2016 20:10
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Agreed. Pre-emptively convict all potential criminals before they do anything. This is a policy that has absolutely no problems whatsoever.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:12
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These people didn't just think about a thing, they were about to do a thing. They would've done that thing if they'd been dealing with actual terrorists and not undercover law enforcement. This isn't thoughtcrime by any stretch.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:14
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