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BULBASAUR posted:I play games without any dice. I just throw models instead same but only GW models INTO THE TRASH! 
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Jan 7, 2016 19:52
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BULBASAUR posted:I play games without any dice. I just throw models instead Like a true gentleman! 
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Jan 7, 2016 19:53
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Clay-o-rama was a better game than AoS.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:03
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Indolent Bastard posted:Like a true gentleman! Wow that's some high level nerdery right there.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:36
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BULBASAUR posted:I play games without any dice. I just throw models instead Stayner was a visionary
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Jan 7, 2016 22:03
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Disc wars by level99 games is the game so you! Chuck wooden discs at your enemies head.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:32
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All minis games should have their combat mechanics replaced with Weapons & Warriors cannons and catapults
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Jan 7, 2016 23:33
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Indolent Bastard posted:Like a true gentleman! This game has some of the most brutal hand to hand combat rules of any game I've ever played.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:13
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It's the only reliable way to put paid to those blighters, old sport.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:31
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:any complaints i might have about the tity necrons are rendered null and void by Perfect for a 'stealer cult.
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Jan 8, 2016 10:12
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Paper Kaiju posted:
Absolutely correct. One of the big reasons I stopped playing 40k (along with assholes). Too much luck for me, especially considering the time, money and effort in building an army. I have nothing against games of chance, but wargames aren't the right place for it. If you have to use dice in a game, I like the Castles of Burgundy way of using them, where it's designed that no matter what you roll, you can do something. Sure, your options can be limited by what you roll and when your turn is, but you're never poo poo out of luck like you are in 40k
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Jan 8, 2016 13:59
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about dice
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Wings of Glory is a decent example of a diceless system. Damage is done via a deck of cards with variable effects and damage values on them, but most of the unpredictability comes from having to pick three moves at once for each model. Leads to a very interesting game where you're almost guaranteed to suffer damage under an opponent's guns and have to outthink their manoeuvres.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:03
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:Absolutely correct. One of the big reasons I stopped playing 40k (along with assholes). Too much luck for me, especially considering the time, money and effort in building an army. I have nothing against games of chance, but wargames aren't the right place for it. I think there's a difference between failing activation rolls and sitting on your rear end during the game (/hwg/ ranted about it happening in Lion Rampant) and "all of my squads missed" or whatever you're referring to in Hams. I'm more concerned in forgetting that I need to roll for something or some fiddly rule that I'm missing, But yeah, gently caress 40K rules. On semi-related note:  Pretty little bastard. If only Mentors (I know its not their colors) had their own fun rules in some other fun ruleset
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Jan 8, 2016 14:59
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JcDent posted:some fiddly rule that I'm missing Saga had loads of these too. We were constantly forgetting how many dice you could add to an attack, forgetting modifiers for assaults, or what the current effects of fatigue etc were being used for. Then there's of course counting and rounding defense dice and rolling to block wounds. I get how that works, but I always wanted it to do it where fails were deaths as opposed to successes being saves.
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Jan 8, 2016 15:15
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I don't like miniatures games without dice. The card flipping aspect is one reason I have no interest in Malifaux whatsoever. I know it's just another form of RNG but I really need the tactile feeling of dice rolling. I've played tons of wargames, and I've never had a problem with a dice-based system in any of them really. Yeah bad luck can gently caress you over, but that makes the outcomes less predictable and the moment to moment gameplay more exciting since anything could happen. I'd rather remember the time my 10 grots killed 5 Terminators in the shooting phase due to some insane luck as opposed to those 10 grots mathematically doing 1.5 wounds which the Terminators would save 86% of, leaving them untouched or whatever boring fixed probability stuff you want to talk about.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:35
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SRM posted:I'd rather remember the time my 10 grots killed 5 Terminators in the shooting phase due to some insane luck as opposed to those 10 grots mathematically doing 1.5 wounds which the Terminators would save 86% of, leaving them untouched or whatever boring fixed probability stuff you want to talk about. I heartily agree and gently caress mathammer, that the wound calculation part made me sick to my stomach.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:49
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JcDent posted:I heartily agree and gently caress mathammer, that the wound calculation part made me sick to my stomach. oh no... I've hit
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Jan 8, 2016 18:44
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Diceless combat doesn't have to mean you discard luck factors entirely.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:49
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Leperflesh posted:Diceless combat doesn't have to mean you discard luck factors entirely. I feel he's more put off by the less engaging turning of cards rather than the rush of rolling dice. I get his view, I just don't agree with it. I've played too many games where you roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, re-roll and get no change in the game state; gently caress that noise. The joy of rolling the dice isn't worth all that.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:26
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Combat without dice is without honour
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Jan 8, 2016 19:30
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To me, a deck of cards is naught but a d52.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:33
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Indolent Bastard posted:I feel he's more put off by the less engaging turning of cards rather than the rush of rolling dice. I get his view, I just don't agree with it. I've played too many games where you roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, re-roll and get no change in the game state; gently caress that noise. The joy of rolling the dice isn't worth all that. Also: Improbable Lobster posted:Combat without dice is without honour
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Jan 8, 2016 20:07
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I prefer games without dodge rolls, but that may be because I only play historicals in eras with bullets. Even an armor save is pointless for most infantry. Just make it harder to hit them if that's the case.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:17
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Improbable Lobster posted:Combat without dice is without honour
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Jan 8, 2016 21:03
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Mr. Squishy posted:To me, a deck of cards is naught but a d52. Only if you shuffle after every 1-card draw. Otherwise, it's a dependent series of draws, instead of an independent one like repeated rolls of a fair die. Each draw affects the odds for the next draw, until you shuffle. You can build a lot of interesting probability curves and decision trees off of that mechanic. I'm not saying I'm in love with Malifaux, mind you, or that I think a deck of cards is a better thing to use for a wargame RNG. Just, there are ways of generating randomness that don't use dice, and there are ways of injecting luck and probability curves and (to my mind most important) uncertainty into a wargame that don't involve pausing before and after every single action to check references to make sure you're rolling the right number of dice with the right modifiers, which even after a dozen or more games of Warhammer Fantasy, still accurately describes my experience with that game. If you are going to use dice, I think it behooves you to use a dicerolling mechanism that creates a probability curve that suits the game. It's fine if sometimes my elite guys miss their shots, or sometimes those scrappy peasants get in a lucky shot, as long as the designer makes those instances appropriately rare.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:15
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SRM, I have a really simple and engaging way for you to convert card-based randomization into a dice-based way, and the best part is that it involves more rolling! Roll a d6. Assign 1-4 to a suit, reroll if it's a 5 or 6. Roll a d6. If it's 1-2, then your next roll will be one of the bottom 6 cards of the suit. If it's 3-4, your next roll will be in the middle 6 cards of the suit. If it's 5-6, then you have a chance at the top card--but only if you roll a 6. Otherwise, you have to start this step over. Then roll your final d6 to determine the final card. Mark down your final roll results on a paper, or simply lay out all the cards on a table so that you can leave a d6 on each one as you 'draw' it with your rolls. Obviously, if you roll that result in a subsequent roll before 'shuffling', then you should reroll.
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Jan 8, 2016 22:13
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SRM posted:Yeah, I mean there's some lovely outliers I'm not really a fan of - overwatch in 6th/7th edition 40k generally being one of them, as 99% of the time it doesn't do anything in my games, at least with most of my armies. How do you feel about bell curves?
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Jan 8, 2016 23:38
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In terms of crazy-weird probabilities, I think Infinity's system is pretty cool. They have this sort of "The Price Is Right" mechanic where you and your opponent are both trying to get as high as you can without going over, but you're probably looking for different target numbers and rolling a different number of dice. The game is thus all about stacking the number of dice and the target numbers for those dice in your favor. And one of the things I love about it is that re-rolls are exceedingly rare (and cost you a highly limited resource to use). Playing 40K where everybody and their brother has Preferred Enemy, Twin-Linked, Master Crafted, Feel No Pain, Reanimation Protocols, or whatever is ridiculous. It takes for loving ever to accomplish anything because there are absurdly common special rules that allow you to re-roll literally every roll in the game. Even the roll to go first ("Haha! Now I shall attempt to 'Steal The Initiative' from you!!!!"). Madness.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:01
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Mr. Squishy posted:To me, a deck of cards is naught but a d52. It's more like 4d13, really.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:05
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I guess for me the frustration is in playing well and losing because the dice didn't go my way. What am I supposed to have learned from that? What should I have done differently? "Rolling better" isn't something I can implement into my strategy. I guess you can argue that it encourages you to try riskier things (grots vs termies) because, hey, it just might work. I still don't see that as playing the game well though.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:25
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As a compromise everyone should just roll poker dice.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:38
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I actually super dig card-based resolution because in addition to having self-correcting effects for swinginess it also allows you to do cool stuff like retain secret "pre-rolled" stuff or hold rolls back or bait people with a facedown or whatever. Haven't seen many games that do cool stuff with them though.
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Jan 9, 2016 02:03
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Atlas Hugged posted:"Rolling better" isn't something I can implement into my strategy. Not with that attitude.
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Jan 9, 2016 02:25
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I think randomizers are needed to some extent in most games, but it depends on how their used to determine the swingyness. I feel like X-wing handles it well because whether or not you can not shoot at someone in the first place is mostly governed by skill (faking out with dials, with the exception of turrets). and so the luck factor is mitigated a lot in that game. It also has a token system where you can gain tokens to help mitigate it to some extent too . spectralent posted:I actually super dig card-based resolution because in addition to having self-correcting effects for swinginess it also allows you to do cool stuff like retain secret "pre-rolled" stuff or hold rolls back or bait people with a facedown or whatever. Haven't seen many games that do cool stuff with them though. I'm actually working on a game like this where it's all about feinting and faking out your opponent.
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Jan 9, 2016 02:28
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Pierzak posted:Not with that attitude. The dice know. They need to be rolled with vigor and humility, in a receptacle no smaller than one cubit in width, and no more than 1 and a half times its width in length. The sun must be allowed to shine upon the faces equally, warming them, and storing its vast benevolent energies within. When dice tumble, they must not be touched before they are ready. If it is the will of the dice that they fly out of the box and onto the floor, their roll shall stand unless thy carpet is deep. For each dice a pet devours, a dozen must take its place. Never roll the same dice twice for the same purpose. Heed this, and the dice may serve you.
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Jan 9, 2016 02:36
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Battlecon: not a minis game (though I guess they could make minatures if they wanted to) but is a fighting game board game that you play pairs of cards to beat your enemy. Very fun, and not luck based at all.
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Jan 9, 2016 04:38
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TheCosmicMuffet posted:If it is the will of the dice that they fly out of the box and onto the floor, their roll shall stand unless thy carpet is deep.
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Jan 9, 2016 05:51
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Moola posted:
this is 
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Jan 9, 2016 06:46
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:any complaints i might have about the tity necrons are rendered null and void by also apparently they sell piles of loose skulls 
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Jan 9, 2016 06:54
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Atlas Hugged posted:I guess for me the frustration is in playing well and losing because the dice didn't go my way. What am I supposed to have learned from that? What should I have done differently? "Rolling better" isn't something I can implement into my strategy. I guess you can argue that it encourages you to try riskier things (grots vs termies) because, hey, it just might work. I still don't see that as playing the game well though. So what about things like X-COM ? Did you enjoy that game ? Because the whole thing relies a hell of a lot on uncertainty and the most intense parts are the ones where your elite trooper missed his 95% shot and you have to scramble around to try and fix stuff. That randomness just changes the way you need to plan ahead in the game in that it just means that you need a back up plan (or two) at all times and it most certainly makes you feel the whole war is much more dangerous. Sure it sucks when a lucky shot brings down one of your dudes but the game would not be the same without it's heavy RNG component. It all just depends on how the game implements and presents all that stuff.
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Jan 9, 2016 11:18
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