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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It was a real shithole And why go establish a colony there when there was plenty of space in the nice bits of the Mediterranean? Any civilisation only spreads as far as is convenient, really. Edit: talking of Greek history, let's not forget that one of the defining battles of the Peloponnessian war, something that had an enduring effect on Greek history for centuries, was fought at Syracuse, which is in Sicily. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 14:45
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How did Greek and Phoenician colonies work? It's not like the places were uninhabited. Did they simply march in and build a fortified town, or did they trade with the locals, or cut a deal with the nearest kingdom? Or some combination of the above?
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Jan 3, 2016 15:33
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Kopijeger posted:Come to think of it, I know that Greeks and Carthaginians established colonies as far west as the southern coast of Spain and the area around Gibraltar. Why did they never attempt to do the same on the Atlantic side of Iberia? After all, mediterranean trade ships would regularily sail to Britain for tin, so it can't have been that the area was difficult to navigate. I'm not an expert, but it probably would have just been more of a pain in the rear end than it was worth. If you look at a map of Phoenician/Carthaginian and Greek colonies, they pretty much stop right where the Celts and pre-Celts start, and it took the Romans - who came in to actually invade and not just set up colonies - two hundred years to wear the Iberian Celts down. The Phoenicians and Greeks probably took one look at them and decided to go live somewhere else. Phobophilia posted:How did Greek and Phoenician colonies work? It's not like the places were uninhabited. Did they simply march in and build a fortified town, or did they trade with the locals, or cut a deal with the nearest kingdom? Or some combination of the above? Most Greek and Phoenician colonies seem to have been a mixture of the second and third options, either making a deal with local leaders for some unoccupied land or establishing a colony for the explicit purpose of being a trading post. (One of the Greek trading colonies in Iberia, appropriately named Εμπόριον/Emporion, actually shared a wall with the neighboring Iberian city.)
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Jan 3, 2016 16:04
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I'm planning to read Richard Alston's Rome's Revolution. Any problems with the book I should be aware of?
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Jan 3, 2016 16:30
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Phobophilia posted:How did Greek and Phoenician colonies work? It's not like the places were uninhabited. Did they simply march in and build a fortified town, or did they trade with the locals, or cut a deal with the nearest kingdom? Or some combination of the above? Less densely populated that one might expect. The establishment of greek colonies had a deep and energizing impact on the celtic hinterland in mediterranean france and spain. Unsurprisingly, it's the thirst for wine and luxury goods that fires up trade and gives some interesting impulses to celtic cultural life. There's a chapter on that in Barry Cunliffe's book "The ancient Celts".
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Jan 3, 2016 16:44
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The west coast of the Iberian peninsula has an iron bound rocky coast with few good ports and terrible weather compared to the med side.
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Jan 3, 2016 18:08
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JaucheCharly posted:Less densely populated that one might expect. The establishment of greek colonies had a deep and energizing impact on the celtic hinterland in mediterranean france and spain. Unsurprisingly, it's the thirst for wine and luxury goods that fires up trade and gives some interesting impulses to celtic cultural life. There's a chapter on that in Barry Cunliffe's book "The ancient Celts". Forgot that I was looking for some reading material on this until just now. So thanks for the book rec 
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Jan 3, 2016 20:16
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The old thread recommended it. Totally worth having.
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Jan 3, 2016 20:23
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Carthage Must Be Destroyed by Richard Miles also spends a good deal of the book exploring to the way the Phoenician colony system, for lack of a better term, worked. It's also a pretty cool book in general.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:18
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Phobophilia posted:How did Greek and Phoenician colonies work? It's not like the places were uninhabited. Did they simply march in and build a fortified town, or did they trade with the locals, or cut a deal with the nearest kingdom? Or some combination of the above? If you understand early European colonize you understand Greek and Phoenician colonies. They showed up first to trade and built small settlements for there trade, but then more and more people showed up and you have full blown colonies.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:24
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I thought Herodotus' account of the founding of Cyrenaica was interesting. In this story when the Greeks arrived they asked the locals to show them the best place to found a settlement. The locals agreed, but waited until dark before taking them to the future site of the city so they could lead them past another superior location which they wanted to conceal from the Greeks and continue using themselves. I liked this story, even though it was probably fictitious, because I think it showed the complicated tensions felt in Herodotus' time between the residents of Greek colonies on the surrounding cultures. There's definitely competition, but everyone for the most part wants to avoid serious confrontations. And there are benefits to having traders show up and build a big port on your doorstep.
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Jan 3, 2016 22:09
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Well, I'll be damned..
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Jan 5, 2016 00:33
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I've been reading Tom Holland's Dynasty. So far, we've had two pages about phalluses, though just a slight bit about buttsex.
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Jan 6, 2016 04:25
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LingcodKilla posted:The west coast of the Iberian peninsula has an iron bound rocky coast with few good ports and terrible weather compared to the med side. Eat poo poo, Portugal 
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Jan 6, 2016 15:29
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Grand Fromage posted:As for women, well, who gives a gently caress. Just name them First, Second, Third, Fourth etc. This is the funniest part of Roman naming to me. People think that names like Decimus and Octavius and Quintus are super cool but possibly don't realise that they're basically "kid number ten, eight, five"
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Jan 6, 2016 18:07
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OwlFancier posted:This is the funniest part of Roman naming to me. People think that names like Decimus and Octavius and Quintus are super cool but possibly don't realise that they're basically "kid number ten, eight, five" His parents must have had low expectations for Octavian.
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Jan 7, 2016 09:11
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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RC and Moon Pie posted:I've been reading Tom Holland's Dynasty. So far, we've had two pages about phalluses, though just a slight bit about buttsex. Just finished it. Every emperor after Augustus feels a bit rushed, but it's still enjoyable to read.
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Jan 7, 2016 09:20
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OwlFancier posted:This is the funniest part of Roman naming to me. People think that names like Decimus and Octavius and Quintus are super cool but possibly don't realise that they're basically "kid number ten, eight, five" I had triplet girls in my class in Korea and once I learned the language a bit I realized they were named First, Second, and Third.
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Jan 7, 2016 10:30
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postumus
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Jan 7, 2016 12:12
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blowfish posted:His parents must have had low expectations for Octavian. it can get confusing because often it didn't literally mean you were the X son of your father. For example, if you happened to have a ancestor who was the fifth son in his family, and he happened to become a famous senator or something, you might be named Quintus in his honor even if you're actually the eldest son.
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Jan 7, 2016 14:52
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My name is Big Tenth Son of the Meridian line, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Lucky Legions and loyal servant to the true emperor, Harvest Gold. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next. e: fixed because it sounds even stupider without taking poetic license with grammar fantastic in plastic fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 15:07
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Biggest Tenth Son. 
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Jan 7, 2016 15:52
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Biggest Tenth Son. I didn't pay attention in irregular adjectives class 
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Jan 7, 2016 16:17
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A civilization with a handful of names, which gave you extra names if you did cool stuff, then eventually started just dishing out random names of ancestors which are the same names as the previous two categories with no distinction between the two like some kind of nominative katamari. How did they conquer the world again?
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Jan 7, 2016 18:07
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OwlFancier posted:A civilization with a handful of names, which gave you extra names if you did cool stuff, then eventually started just dishing out random names of ancestors which are the same names as the previous two categories with no distinction between the two like some kind of nominative katamari. It was there.
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Jan 7, 2016 18:16
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OwlFancier posted:A civilization with a handful of names, which gave you extra names if you did cool stuff, then eventually started just dishing out random names of ancestors which are the same names as the previous two categories with no distinction between the two like some kind of nominative katamari. Stabbing everyone else while they're confused?
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Jan 7, 2016 18:18
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OwlFancier posted:A civilization with a handful of names, which gave you extra names if you did cool stuff, then eventually started just dishing out random names of ancestors which are the same names as the previous two categories with no distinction between the two like some kind of nominative katamari. It's either do cool stuff or get named after an agricultural product to make fun of my looks, I'm gonna do some real cool stuff and build a lot of public works to show off the cool name I got for it. Hey they've got cool stuff, I want to be like them.
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Jan 7, 2016 18:21
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Let me tell you about the sybaritic excesses and murderous tyranny of the very famous and crazy Roman Emperor: Bootsie.
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Jan 7, 2016 18:27
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Hey, how did ancient Greek names of the similar time period work, anyway?
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Jan 7, 2016 18:52
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cheerfullydrab posted:Let me tell you about the sybaritic excesses and murderous tyranny of the very famous and crazy Roman Emperor: Bootsie. Hey if a man can play such a killer bass I'll forgive a lot.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:57
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fishmech posted:Hey, how did ancient Greek names of the similar time period work, anyway? Ancient Greeks most often just had a given name. If that wasn't enough to identify them, they'd be referred to by the genitive form of their father's name or some other identifier (usually geographic). So that's why you hear about "Thales of Miletus" or "Diogenes of Sinope" or "Achilles, son of Peleus". Women had given names but were typically referred to as "wife of..." because patriarchy.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:50
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Tao Jones posted:Ancient Greeks most often just had a given name. If that wasn't enough to identify them, they'd be referred to by the genitive form of their father's name or some other identifier (usually geographic). So that's why you hear about "Thales of Miletus" or "Diogenes of Sinope" or "Achilles, son of Peleus". Thanks! I just realized that the weird way the Romans did names comes up a lot, but the way Greeks were doing things doesn't.
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Jan 8, 2016 03:01
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OwlFancier posted:A civilization with a handful of names, which gave you extra names if you did cool stuff, then eventually started just dishing out random names of ancestors which are the same names as the previous two categories with no distinction between the two like some kind of nominative katamari. Insane stubbornness and an absolute refusal to lose.
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Jan 8, 2016 03:04
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I dunno, they must have been doing other things right if the rest of Italy fought a war with Rome in order to get Roman citizenship.
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Jan 8, 2016 03:51
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Arglebargle III posted:I dunno, they must have been doing other things right if the rest of Italy fought a war with Rome in order to get Roman citizenship. Never heard of this. Tell me more.
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Jan 8, 2016 04:25
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verbal enema posted:Never heard of this. Tell me more.  Are you in the right thread?
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Jan 8, 2016 04:37
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verbal enema posted:Never heard of this. Tell me more. Back To 99 posted:
The Social War is not one of the more popular ones, since the Romans won it by conceding to their opponent's demands. Basically, Roman citizens got preference in just about everything; land ownership, legal disputes, etc. The Italian "allies" were pissed, and so they rebelled. Rome did an OK job of crushing them, but probably realized they needed more dudes to get the world conquest thing going, so they granted citizenship to all the Italians.
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Jan 8, 2016 04:52
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Back To 99 posted:
Yeah, the "Ask me about Roman history thread" is the last place you'd want to ask about Roman history. Tao Jones posted:Ancient Greeks most often just had a given name. If that wasn't enough to identify them, they'd be referred to by the genitive form of their father's name or some other identifier (usually geographic). So that's why you hear about "Thales of Miletus" or "Diogenes of Sinope" or "Achilles, son of Peleus". I suppose in casual conversation it'd be more like "Diogenes the baker", "Diogenes who lives next door to Thales", "Big Diogenes" etc., but we don't hear nearly as much about that.
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Jan 8, 2016 07:04
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sullat posted:The Social War is not one of the more popular ones, since the Romans won it by conceding to their opponent's demands. Basically, Roman citizens got preference in just about everything; land ownership, legal disputes, etc. The Italian "allies" were pissed, and so they rebelled. Rome did an OK job of crushing them, but probably realized they needed more dudes to get the world conquest thing going, so they granted citizenship to all the Italians. thus marking the first step of roman corruptness spreading to new jersey
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Jan 8, 2016 10:49
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The medical procedure that I was given birth with is named after a guy that got stabbed by thirteen people. Sounds about right.
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Jan 8, 2016 11:11
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