The Kitchen Knife Thread

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SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Moridin920 posted:

All I'm saying is if you're looking to buy a $600 knife, realize you're paying for the workmanship, art, materials, and skill required to hand forge and finish the thing - just don't expect it to cut way better than a $200-300 one is all. Like sure a knife forged from the iron of a meteor is cool as hell but is it really going to make you better at dicing an onion?

I'd take that further, and say that most of what you're paying for isn't even the craftsmanship, it's the name. The relatively humble Tojiro DP line has doubled in price and the CCK #1 Small Slicer has more than doubled in price since I first bought them. And the reputation for quality in the DP line has, if anything, gone down in that time. But those are names that a whole shitload of people on the internet are interested in, so the price has gone up. And that's for mass-produced cutlery. When you start talking about a knifemaker that's producing only a couple of blades a month and you've got the whole loving internet full of knife nerds looking for a prestige blade....

# ? Jan 6, 2016 23:54

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# ? May 12, 2024 16:40

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Honestly, I just want to know why chinese cleavers have so much cost-efficiency.

Before Christmas, I went to this chinese place at the nearby downtown, when I saw this immigrant cook from Guangzhou doing straight-up knife wizard fuckery with this beat-as-hell cleaver and I asked him about it and he just lol'ed at me for thinking this was some special knife. He said he bought it for what would be $15-20 usd at a local market before leaving the country. :v:

dead gay comedy forums fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Jan 7, 2016

# ? Jan 7, 2016 03:42

CrazyLittle: Sep 11, 2001; Clapping Larry

Transmetropolitan posted:

Honestly, I just want to know why chinese cleavers have so much cost-efficiency.

Because it's a big hunk of cheaper metal that's not meant for insanely delicate finery like you might with a chef's knife. While you CAN sharpen sharpen them to a very keen edge, that really just misses the point of a cleaver that's meant to chop through bones, and you're probably going to chip the blade and just have to sharpen it again. In particular the CCK is made from a probably-better-than-average high carbon steel, but that's not the same guarantee you'd get from a $20 cleaver at the Chinese restaurant supply store.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:40

Chef De Cuisinart: Oct 31, 2010; Brandy does in fact, in my experience, contribute to Getting Down.

CCKs used to be dirt cheap carbon cleavers. Then they got popular and price went up 3-4x. Bought my Large cleaver 4 years ago for $30, I think they're $100 now.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:52

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

CrazyLittle posted:

Because it's a big hunk of cheaper metal that's not meant for insanely delicate finery like you might with a chef's knife. While you CAN sharpen sharpen them to a very keen edge, that really just misses the point of a cleaver that's meant to chop through bones, and you're probably going to chip the blade and just have to sharpen it again.

No, a cleaver like the CCK Small Slicer (the one everyone talks about from ck2g is the #3 Small Slicer) definitely isn't meant to chop through bones. CCK does indeed make bone cleavers (I have a couple myself), but in general when people are talking about Chinese cleavers they're talking about something that isn't designed for bone chopping but instead does more or less anything a Western chef's knife does.

Anyway, I imagine the chief reason why they've historically been so inexpensive for the quality is because both manufacturing and labour are really cheap in China.

CrazyLittle posted:

In particular the CCK is made from a probably-better-than-average high carbon steel, but that's not the same guarantee you'd get from a $20 cleaver at the Chinese restaurant supply store.

The carbon steel CCKs I own are merely adequate as far as the quality of the steel goes. They're not garbage, but the materials seem to be about average compared to a random one from a store in Chinatown. The main advantage the CCK has over random other inexpensive Chinese cleavers I've handled and/or owned is that it's lighter and thinner from the factory. Also, most of 'em have have the (invariably cheap) handles attached by having the end of the tang hammered flat against the butt of the handle. All the CCKs I own are nice and snug, but a lot of the random other Chinese cleavers I own rattle or have loose handles.

I also have a couple of higher-end Japanese Chinese cleavers, like a Takeda, and the fit and finish on them is leagues better, but they are also literally ten times as expensive.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 05:16

AnonSpore: Jan 19, 2012; "I didn't see the part where he develops as a character so I guess he never developed as a character"

CrazyLittle posted:

Because it's a big hunk of cheaper metal that's not meant for insanely delicate finery like you might with a chef's knife. While you CAN sharpen sharpen them to a very keen edge, that really just misses the point of a cleaver that's meant to chop through bones, and you're probably going to chip the blade and just have to sharpen it again. In particular the CCK is made from a probably-better-than-average high carbon steel, but that's not the same guarantee you'd get from a $20 cleaver at the Chinese restaurant supply store.

Have you seen the poo poo that Chinese chefs can do with those fuckhuge sheets of metal

# ? Jan 7, 2016 07:22

I like turtles: Aug 6, 2009

Yeah, when I buy "nice" kitchen gear I do so not with any illusion that a $600 knife is 6 times better than a $100 knife.
It's just cheaper to collect kitchen stuff that is pretty and and serves actual function compared to most of my other hobbies.
It is really down to if I want the monostahl or 3 layer steel version of the Y1. The contrasting steel is really neat.
I can also get it direct from the maker for like $430 shipped (yay strong dollar I guess?)

# ? Jan 7, 2016 07:56

The Midniter: Jul 9, 2001

SubG posted:

No, a cleaver like the CCK Small Slicer (the one everyone talks about from ck2g is the #3 Small Slicer) definitely isn't meant to chop through bones. CCK does indeed make bone cleavers (I have a couple myself), but in general when people are talking about Chinese cleavers they're talking about something that isn't designed for bone chopping but instead does more or less anything a Western chef's knife does.

Anyway, I imagine the chief reason why they've historically been so inexpensive for the quality is because both manufacturing and labour are really cheap in China.

The carbon steel CCKs I own are merely adequate as far as the quality of the steel goes. They're not garbage, but the materials seem to be about average compared to a random one from a store in Chinatown. The main advantage the CCK has over random other inexpensive Chinese cleavers I've handled and/or owned is that it's lighter and thinner from the factory. Also, most of 'em have have the (invariably cheap) handles attached by having the end of the tang hammered flat against the butt of the handle. All the CCKs I own are nice and snug, but a lot of the random other Chinese cleavers I own rattle or have loose handles.

I also have a couple of higher-end Japanese Chinese cleavers, like a Takeda, and the fit and finish on them is leagues better, but they are also literally ten times as expensive.

How many cleavers do you actually own? This post makes it sound like you have 20+.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 15:46

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Speaking of chinese cleavers, are there any suggestions for a stainless steel chinese cleaver?

Even without the CCK cleavers shooting up in price, sometimes I cut stuff and leave the knife on the cutting board overnight, and I'd like not to worry about rust and whatnot.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 19:32

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

uninterrupted posted:

Speaking of chinese cleavers, are there any suggestions for a stainless steel chinese cleaver?

Even without the CCK cleavers shooting up in price, sometimes I cut stuff and leave the knife on the cutting board overnight, and I'd like not to worry about rust and whatnot.

Tojiro makes a VG-10 one: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojirocleaver1.html

There is also the Richmond AEB-L one: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rino6cl1.html

# ? Jan 7, 2016 20:37

KingColliwog: May 15, 2003; Let's go droogs

any good alternative to the cck if the price keeps going up?

# ? Jan 7, 2016 21:23

Broletariat: Nov 14, 2014

Can someone explain what a "honyaki" knife is?

# ? Jan 7, 2016 22:38

deimos: Nov 30, 2006; Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!

Broletariat posted:

Can someone explain what a "honyaki" knife is?

Usually japanese knives are "clad" that is a very hard metal that makes up the edge surrounded by a softer metal. Honyaki is the whole blade made from the same metal.

Here's an illustration of cladding: http://zknives.com/knives/articles/jpnknifecladtypes.shtml

# ? Jan 7, 2016 22:42

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

The Midniter posted:

How many cleavers do you actually own? This post makes it sound like you have 20+.

Only about half that, although I've used or handled a lot more. I tried out a lot of the `big name' cleavers---Misono, Hattori, Sugimoto, Suien, and so on---before ending up buying a Takeda. This was all before ck2g was into Chinese cleavers, so if you wanted to buy a Chinese cleaver you had to visit a lot of cutlery stores where all your transactions as a clumsy laowai involve a lot of gesturing, smiling, and nodding.

uninterrupted posted:

Speaking of chinese cleavers, are there any suggestions for a stainless steel chinese cleaver?

Even without the CCK cleavers shooting up in price, sometimes I cut stuff and leave the knife on the cutting board overnight, and I'd like not to worry about rust and whatnot.

The Misono #86 (bigger, more expensive) and #61 (smaller, less expensive) are both okay. Suien also makes a VG-10 cleaver. I haven't personally handled one, but their other cleavers are on the thick/heavy side, which I'm not crazy about.

KingColliwog posted:

any good alternative to the cck if the price keeps going up?

I don't know if CCK's prices have gone up, or just ck2g's. In any event, if you live near a Chinatown I'd suggest just going there and looking around---that's how I got most of my CCKs, and you're sure to see a healthy assortment of other non-CCK cleavers. With the advantage that you can pick one up and handle it before buying, which is really loving important with a knife.

That all said, even at US$70 on ck2g a #3 Small Slicer (what ck2g calls the `CCK Small Cleaver') is a pretty good deal (although I'd definitely still take a #1 Small Slicer over a #3 any day). Not counting cheapass randomly branded or unbranded cleavers, the other `big name' cleavers still start out about twice as expensive and go up from there.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 23:11

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

Broletariat posted:

Can someone explain what a "honyaki" knife is?

deimos posted:

Usually japanese knives are "clad" that is a very hard metal that makes up the edge surrounded by a softer metal. Honyaki is the whole blade made from the same metal.

Here's an illustration of cladding: http://zknives.com/knives/articles/jpnknifecladtypes.shtml

My understanding is that although some companies market their monosteel knives as honyaki, it's probably more accurate to call those zenkou. Honyaki implies a knife that is also differentially hardened, not just monosteel.

# ? Jan 8, 2016 12:38

The Ferret King: Nov 23, 2003; cluck cluck

Can someone explain what a ~~"honyaki"~~ "zenkou" knife is?

# ? Jan 8, 2016 12:53

Scott808: Jul 11, 2001

The Ferret King posted:

Can someone explain what a ~~"honyaki"~~ "zenkou" knife is?

Zenkou = monosteel. Instead of having hagane (steel that makes up the cutting edge) and jigane (soft cladding) as a clad knife does, the whole thing is made of hagane.

# ? Jan 8, 2016 13:31

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

AnonSpore posted:

Have you seen the poo poo that Chinese chefs can do with those fuckhuge sheets of metal

I bought a cheap one years ago in a supermarket in saigon. Love it to bits. I sharpen it myself using a diamond plate, then i buff it on an MDF wheel with chromium oxide compound, it's shave sharp.

Sadly I dropped it on my concrete shop floor and the synthetic handle broke. Oh well a chance to make a new wooden handle! Oak, walnut, ash? Or silver birch? I am thinking oak...

# ? Jan 11, 2016 22:45

Kylaer: Aug 4, 2007; I'm SURE walking around in a respirator at all times in an (even more) OPEN BIDENing society is definitely not a recipe for disaster and anyone that's not cool with getting harassed by CHUDs are cave dwellers. I've got good brain!

I'm looking to buy a knife for my mother, who likes the rock-chopping technique. I prefer to push-cut so I'm not experienced with the best blades for what she wants. I'm guessing something with a lot of curve to the belly, like this one is what I should be going for?

Also, if I want to upgrade my own primary knife from a Tojiro DP 240mm gyuto to something nicer in the same general style, what brands should I be looking at?

# ? Jan 14, 2016 21:04

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Kylaer posted:

I'm looking to buy a knife for my mother, who likes the rock-chopping technique. I prefer to push-cut so I'm not experienced with the best blades for what she wants. I'm guessing something with a lot of curve to the belly, like this one is what I should be going for?

Also, if I want to upgrade my own primary knife from a Tojiro DP 240mm gyuto to something nicer in the same general style, what brands should I be looking at?

The first one looks like a decent choice for your mother, for something similar to the Tojiro but a step up I would look at this Masamoto.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 21:40

guppy: Sep 21, 2004; sting like a byob

I think a Wusthof Classic would be a good choice and is also about the same price.

# ? Jan 15, 2016 13:11

mushi: Oct 13, 2003; I am addicted to video games.

Question about sharpening a knife to push-cut. I have an edge pro knockoff with some crappy stones and I got two chosera stones to replace/supplement those stones, a 400 and 1000 grit stone. Using a progression of the low grit no-name stones into the choseras, I got a no-name santoko knife slicing really nice again (after a few years of abuse with some chips and whatnot, the edge pro thing really is idiot proof). But it certainly doesn't seem that effective at push cutting after sharpening with the 1000 grit chosera. I also have a Victorinox smooth steel hone that I tried to use.

I'm wondering if I need additional equipment to get the edge to push cut, or if I just need to set my stuff up differently/get better technique. Is a chosera 1000 grit stone high enough to get a blade to push cut or do I need to get higher grit stones (or polishing paper? are those like a cheaper but temporary fix to higher grit stones?). Can you get a relatively cheap knife to push cut? Do I need a strop or a ceramic hone? When I used the smooth steel hone, I didn't seem to get rid of the burr no matter how much I tried, and I assume it's probably poo poo technique, but then it sounds like all of the instruction videos say to use a ceramic hone. I also tried evening out the burr by just using the edge pro system with the chosera stone with 0 pressure as described by some of the online videos, that worked better.

Are edge angles an issue? I just did the magic marker trick to match the angle as far as I could tell which was about 18 degrees per side. Also the sharpering faq sort of has some conflicting advice - it talks about how the lowest possible edge angle is better, but then later it talks about how you want a double-bevel and a higher angle on the primary bevel for kitchen knives. I'd be down to try a double bevel but that seems pretty far beyond my ability at this point.

# ? Jan 17, 2016 07:17

Nigel Tufnel: Jan 4, 2005; You can't really dust for vomit.

Quick sharpening question. I've been sharpening my Tojiro santoku on a 1000 / 3000 combination stone and getting some decent results but just wanted to double check my technique here.

I'm starting on the 1000 stone and probably after less than a minute I can feel the burr. Once I feel the burr I do the other side of the knife until I feel the burr again and then flip it one more time for a few strokes to take off the burr. Now I have no burr on either side. Then I use the 3000 stone for about a minute on either side and even out the burr.

Some of the instructions I've read seem to suggest that once you do get a burr on the second side of the knife that you should proceed directly to using the next stone without getting rid of the burr by flipping it once more on the 1000 stone. Am I doing it wrong?

# ? Jan 18, 2016 23:28

Thoht: Aug 3, 2006

Nah, you're doing it right. I would say that for maintenance sharpening you can probably just do touch-ups on the 3000 grit. That'll save you some metal-wear over the long term. Also, try doing some stropping strokes as a final step on your 3000 grit. I usually do about 20 total, alternating direction, until I start to feel the blade sliding along the stone with perceptibly less resistance.

# ? Jan 19, 2016 00:54

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Anyone know a vendor that has the glass stones in stock for the edgepro?

# ? Jan 22, 2016 16:21

deimos: Nov 30, 2006; Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!

Mr. Wookums posted:

Anyone know a vendor that has the glass stones in stock for the edgepro?

If I remember right Shapton makes those specifically for CKTG (because Mark asked them to cast it for him).

# ? Jan 22, 2016 17:39

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Nuts. Guess I'll just get to Amazon Chosera then.

# ? Jan 22, 2016 17:51

deimos: Nov 30, 2006; Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!

Mr. Wookums posted:

Nuts. Guess I'll just get to Amazon Chosera then.

FWIW I use diamond plates for my low grits and Shaptons for high grits (1000+), the Shaptons barely get worn, the main advantage of Shaptons are for extremely hard metals (63+ish HRC I think is when it's noticeable). So Choseras should be ok and last you a long time.

# ? Jan 22, 2016 18:06

Steve Yun: Aug 7, 2003; I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.; Soiled Meat

Uhh is there such a thing as a knife being too sharp? I just got a steal on a new Henckels pro knife and it sticks to my cutting boards whenever I use it, both the plastics and the bamboo board.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 06:30

ColHannibal: Sep 17, 2007

Steve Yun posted:

bamboo board.

Dont worry it wont be sharp for long.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 07:38

Steve Yun: Aug 7, 2003; I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.; Soiled Meat

Well the bamboo is really just for presenting roasts. I just use plastic on a regular basis.

Is wood better for resisting knife sticking?

# ? Jan 25, 2016 07:44

Chef De Cuisinart: Oct 31, 2010; Brandy does in fact, in my experience, contribute to Getting Down.

ColHannibal posted:

Dont worry it wont be sharp for long.

You're thinking of teak. Bamboo is fine, though not ideal.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 13:56

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Has anyone used a knife with the HAP40 steel? I want a new workhorse at 240+ and can't decide on a steel. I don't want anything very reactive as I'll forget to wipe it down so I'm between:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohawagy24.html
The HAP40 knife I'll likely get if the steel is as amazing as they say.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kogsgy24.html
Proprietary steel?!

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kurosaki240.html
An R2 that has cladding I could tolerate.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rilaaosu24gy.html
I've seen this referenced many times in various reviews so it's bound to be good.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/sag3gigy24.html
Ginsan, which isn't as hard as HAP40. Knife is gorgeous though.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 15:41

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Mr. Wookums posted:

Has anyone used a knife with the HAP40 steel? I want a new workhorse at 240+ and can't decide on a steel. I don't want anything very reactive as I'll forget to wipe it down so I'm between:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohawagy24.html
The HAP40 knife I'll likely get if the steel is as amazing as they say.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kogsgy24.html
Proprietary steel?!

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kurosaki240.html
An R2 that has cladding I could tolerate.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rilaaosu24gy.html
I've seen this referenced many times in various reviews so it's bound to be good.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/sag3gigy24.html
Ginsan, which isn't as hard as HAP40. Knife is gorgeous though.

I've never used HAP40, but one thing on the Kurosaki R2, it's very much a rockers knife, don't expect to chop or push cut with it. For R2 I recommend the Shiro Kamo R2. Also the Richmond Laser AS is made of Aogami Super steel, that is a fairly reactive steel so you should cross it off your list. I like Ginsan steel, it dulls more quickly than R2 but it sharpens up really quickly and easily.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 18:08

Karia: Mar 27, 2013; Self-portrait, Snake on a Plane
Oil painting, c. 1482-1484
Leonardo DaVinci (1452-1591)

I've got a Shirokamo R2 petty, takes and keeps a wicked edge, but it chips pretty easily. Every time I've let anyone else touch it it's had minor to moderate chipping.

That being said, you can just sharpen a gyuto to a less aggressive angle and not have a problem.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 18:40

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Karia posted:

I've got a Shirokamo R2 petty, takes and keeps a wicked edge, but it chips pretty easily. Every time I've let anyone else touch it it's had minor to moderate chipping.

That being said, you can just sharpen a gyuto to a less aggressive angle and not have a problem.

IIRC, the petty is a fair bit thinner than the gyuto, so I could see chipping happening there, I've never had my 240 gyuto version chip but I could see it happen if you were trying to whack through bones or something like that.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 18:49

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Thanks for the warning, I do not want a rocker for now. Have you had to strip the finish on the r2 you linked yet? I'm hesitant to get one with the pattern so close to the edge as it may be a lovely aesthetic in a few years time. I'm not finding anything negative about HAP40, except that it's similar to M4 steel (which I can't find used for kitchen knives) but can also take high heats which seems like worthless info.

Do you feel either the r2 or Ginsan may chip on chicken joints?

/e- r2 answered above.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 19:05

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Mr. Wookums posted:

Thanks for the warning, I do not want a rocker for now. Have you had to strip the finish on the r2 you linked yet? I'm hesitant to get one with the pattern so close to the edge as it may be a lovely aesthetic in a few years time. I'm not finding anything negative about HAP40, except that it's similar to M4 steel (which I can't find used for kitchen knives) but can also take high heats which seems like worthless info.

Do you feel either the r2 or Ginsan may chip on chicken joints?

/e- r2 answered above.

I've taken my Kamo R2 through joints just fine, but I'm pretty sure if you tried to whack right through the center of a thigh bone you could chip it and you would certainly dull it. But the thing is that chipping is more about the blade geometry and how hard the steel is, my Ginsan knife(Konosuke Ginsan 240) is much softer than the Kamo but it's insanely thin so I consider the Kamo a much more robust knife overall. One knife you might want to look at is the Sukenari Ginsan 240, I'm going off of impressions of other people who have used the knife but from what they've said it's a very nice all rounder, you can chop, push cut or rock with it, it's fairly robust, has good edge retention and a nice thin tip for finer work.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 19:29

Thoht: Aug 3, 2006

I think people tend to really overthink the importance of alloys in kitchen knives. Geometry, grind, and the heat treatment are usually the biggest factors.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 20:07

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# ? May 12, 2024 16:40

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Thoht posted:

I think people tend to really overthink the importance of alloys in kitchen knives. Geometry, grind, and the heat treatment are usually the biggest factors.

Yeah, the steel is only important in that some steels can be hardened more than others before becoming too brittle to be useful.

# ? Jan 25, 2016 20:13

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