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I think I'd be ok if they nerfed razing but moved the core-creation discount earlier in Horde NIs, maybe have it a starting tradition or partly baked into the government form. I'm constantly 10+ years ahead on diplo and military tech because I get tons of it from razing, more than I know what to do with. But chronically behind on admin tech because I'm using it for coring.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:41
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I know people won't be keen to lose a feature that just got added, but I still think they should just take out the later tier units again. IMO, hordes should be a race to consolidate while your units still cling to relevance- razing makes this even better, where if you maintain momentum you can keep it going a bit more, but slip up and you end up crippling your own future land for no benefit. Being able to keep their military competitive as hordes just makes them a slightly horsier version of every other team, rather than something properly unique. Make razing poo poo and that gets even worse.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:48
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I think Hordes could be nerfed by making them become less stable as they get larger, somehow. Whether that be with the Tribes estate, events, leader death, or whatnot. Historically Hordes tended to be an amalgam of multiple tribes led by a strong leader and his tribe. These "Hordes" could stick together while that strong leader was in power (Tamerlane is a great example that died just before the game started; there are other good but much less well known examples in East Asia). Once that strong leader was gone the Horde as it was under the strong leader tended to devolve into its component Tribes. Therefore a succession mechanic that gives a chance of certain things (former nations, new trbies, something) breaking away on succession, a la the Doom mechanic in mesoamerica, would probably be the most interesting and least nerfy thing to do.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:55
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Hordes do get less stable as they grow, in theory at least. The tribes demand 33% (I think) of the land no matter your size (so eventually you'll run into influence issues) and your horde unity will decay faster the bigger you get.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:03
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You don't actually run into influence issues though and the horde unity penalty for development caps at a very manageable level. Anyway this is all a bit moot since they're already planning horde changes so we'll see what they are next week.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:06
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PittTheElder posted:Prestige is a real concern if you need to maintain a personal union, like say, Poland does. Point taken. I'm not particularly fond of that mechanic either, but it does have an interesting interaction here, at least until admin 10. I'll withdraw my objection.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:13
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Fintilgin posted:I'm not sure I want them to nerf razing so much as nerf hordes in such a way that if you don't eventually settle and modernize you're going to be left in the dust militarily and your horsemen are just going to be slaughtered. Like you have an early game window to get your Genghis on, but then you need to consider how you're going to be modernized if you don't want to be increasingly irrelevant. If cavalry were extra weak against fire, but fire didn't really take off until the mid-game, then you could change the balance of power that way. Cavalry was relevant throughout most of this time period, but eventually, dense infantry formations and strong firepower made them obsolete, c.f. Napoleon in Egypt.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:24
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MrBling posted:Hordes do get less stable as they grow, in theory at least.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:34
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Can the Burgundian Inheritence fire while just sitting on them at 100% war score or do I actually have to be fighting them in battles and such? I'm looking at the event data and it seems like I'm meeting all the requirements otherwise.
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Jan 8, 2016 00:32
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It can. The mean time to happen though is just that, though, a mean. Sometimes you can score it in 1446, and other times it takes long enough for you to get bored and stop trying for it.
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Jan 8, 2016 01:42
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QuarkJets posted:lol I didn't even notice that, hilarious Development not increasing loyalty was just dumb to begin with. It's one of the things that annoyed me the most about the estate system. With the autonomy floor gone, they might actually be a net gain now. I'd still rather turn them off entirely but since they'll stay I am happy for any changes to them to make them less lovely.
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Jan 8, 2016 11:00
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Feature request: A toggle to stop fog of war and armies from disappearing when you zoom out. It's pretty annoying when you're fighting a war along a long border.
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Jan 8, 2016 11:09
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So I've reached a make it or break it point in my Kazan game already in 1451. I've beaten Nogai, and Muscovy started a war with Lithuania and Poland, all their manpower is gone, but they did hit 15 mercenaries. I'm down to only 8k manpower, and their alliance has around 3x the number of my troops, but I feel like I'm never going to get a better opportunity to beat them, because it will be 30-40 years before I have the favors to pull Timurids into an offensive war. Should I just take out 4-5 loans, stock up on my own mercenary infantry, and just go at them?
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Jan 8, 2016 12:19
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Risk it for the biscuit.
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Jan 8, 2016 12:51
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So, playing with Random New World leads to two observations: 1. It'd be more fun if senarios where all the inhabited bits of the new word border each other happened more often. 2.  You can westernize and reform religion off of High American tech group nations.This comes from a scenario where about a dozen incan nations bordered Vinland and the Lost Tribe of Israel.
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Jan 8, 2016 13:14
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Observation from my end as well: If a RNW is generated - it often appears that the trade routes do not lead to Europe, and that it only goes through Asia for example. However, once you start playing the game, and as you begin to discover the RNW as a European player, trade routes mysteriously form that flow to Seville/Bordeaux and then on from there. Dependant on where the continents are placed - it seems this determines whether these trade routes 'appear' for just Seville, Bordeaux, or North sea/English Channel, or a combination or mixture thereof. Next test is to see whether the trade routes form differently if different European nations discover them, which I initially suspected, but now I think might not be. Looks like its the way the tiles are mashed together - though it is strange that the trade routes do not appear when the RNW is first generated. This drastically changes every scenario where I thought I had to regenerate RNW because I thought the trade routes didn't generate correctly 
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Jan 8, 2016 14:33
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It looks like the only continents mod really leads to a better RNW as the prevalence of islands and mini-continents otherwise forces the fun sorts of regions not to spawn. I got this Map from it. First, those big blobs on the eastern continent. The Orange is the Aztec cultured Inti Burning Empire, the yellow the andean cultured Nahuatl Obsidian Empire. That group on the south-eastern tip is all mayan states. As for the southern continent, the blue blob is the Califonian native american cultured Mayan Crimson empire, while the crimson state to it's right is the Chinese oligarchic republic of Yingzhou. Those states all along the south and west are Nahuatl in the West and Inti in the south and there sure are a lot of them. As for the lonely green nation on the western continent, that's vinland. This was generated with a mod that boosted development for the RNW in logical ways as well, so those three big empires? They're powerhouses, with development exceeding France. This is the sort of thing I like to see from RNW!
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Jan 8, 2016 14:48
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How do you manage estate influence? I keep them at the minimum amount of land required but it seems influence is only changed by random event.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:52
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NewMars posted:It looks like the only continents mod really leads to a better RNW as the prevalence of islands and mini-continents otherwise forces the fun sorts of regions not to spawn. I got this That is a really good RNW, really realistic continents that looks like they're based on tectonic activity. I'll have to check this out!
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Jan 8, 2016 15:07
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Idea: Leave razing as extremely powerful as it is, but have Hordes unable to use any unit type besides cavalry, but maybe with an even stronger cavalry cost reduction so you don't get Crimea only able to field 4k horses in 1444 or whatever. This would pretty much cement an unreformed horde as amazing in early game and in shock phase but just god freaking awful come 1550 or so when every single non-horde unit has fire out the rear end. Also the flat owned territory shock bonus should only apply to defensive battles, IMO.
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Jan 8, 2016 15:16
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Node posted:I never thought I could do it. When the year hit 1700 and I had almost 250 provinces to go, I almost gave up. Then I saw how exponentially faster conquest becomes. I got admin efficiency 40% and never researched any admin tech beyond that. Finally, Jihad! Thank you for all those delicious 1/1/1 provinces, Russia. I just got it myself, beat you by one year   Took a few attempts to get off the ground, mostly because I kept making stupid mistakes like getting greedy in an early war and bankrupting myself (it was late and I was tired and missed the warning) to try and capture just a little bit more. But once I the ball got rolling it wasn't too tough. There was one nervous moment when the Ottomans decided they wanted a bunch of my poo poo and cancelled our alliance, but then Poland and Wallachia (that's them with all of Greece) starting beating them up so I joined in and took the Levant and the Maghreb. I went Admin-Exploration-Trade-Quantity (first 2 ideas only)-Expansion (first 3)-Dropped Quantity for Defensive-Quality. I was a little slow getting to the Cape so Portugal was able to sneak a few colonies into Indonesia via Diego Garcia, but they petered out pretty quickly. They focused more on Brazil, California and Alaska so I was able to colonize a reasonable amount for myself, although Brunei, Malacca and somehow the French managed to grab a bit too. I'd planned to conquer some of the locals but never got around to shipping the troops over. I had more than enough to keep both them and my admin points tied up on the continents anyway. In retrospect I should have taken Exploration first like that one guy said and I could have Westernised much sooner than I did. Tempted to try and unify Islam now but it would mean taking on Spain and Poland. They're allied, so I'd have to take on both at once. e: Also just formed Arabia and got Arabian Coffee, woo. Wafflecopper fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 15:28
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Averrences posted:Observation from my end as well: I think trade routes from RNW are just hidden to begin with. You can however see if they are GOING to appear by opening a Europe node like English Channel or Seville and looking up at the top that shows the in/out flow tabs. If there is one called ??? it is a hidden RNW node that will 'magically' appear once you find it. If you have no ??? node then no trade will ever flow in from the RNW. NewMars posted:It looks like the only continents mod really leads to a better RNW as the prevalence of islands and mini-continents otherwise forces the fun sorts of regions not to spawn. I got this That's literally a single mega tile though. That mod just makes it more likely to show up. RNW does need more big interesting tiles to offset all the lovely little islands, and maybe try to force more continents to spawn. Like, if the RNW doesn't have a minimum number of provinces it has a high chance of being thrown out and regenerated until it does.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:28
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RNWs do not lack for provinces. People just think they do because the landmasses are more spread out than original new world, but original new world is just as much water. That said, yes we need more large continents.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:34
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I've had great fun with RNW really, that new tile system is pretty great and the main reason I don't always have it active are achievements. No trade going to Europe is kinda cool too, it makes Asia more fun/important. I wouldn't mind it if there was some decision/event system to cause trade flow to change over time. If Japan dominates the new world they shouldn't be punished by static trade routes going to Europe.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:46
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Wiz posted:RNWs do not lack for provinces. People just think they do because the landmasses are more spread out than original new world, but original new world is just as much water.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:52
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Palleon posted:So I've reached a make it or break it point in my Kazan game already in 1451. I've beaten Nogai, and Muscovy started a war with Lithuania and Poland, all their manpower is gone, but they did hit 15 mercenaries. I'm down to only 8k manpower, and their alliance has around 3x the number of my troops, but I feel like I'm never going to get a better opportunity to beat them, because it will be 30-40 years before I have the favors to pull Timurids into an offensive war. Should I just take out 4-5 loans, stock up on my own mercenary infantry, and just go at them? First off, gently caress the Timurids, you want to break that alliance ASAP and conquer them. What sort of warscore do you have against Pol-Lit, what is their war enthusiasm, and have you captured any forts yet? If you haven't taken any forts yet, there's a good chance continuing until you do can exhaust you really well. I made a similar mistake in trying to fight the Ottos too soon, and wound up exhausting myself for little gain. Keep in mind that you're only going to get stronger, and they mostly aren't.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:44
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:First off, gently caress the Timurids, you want to break that alliance ASAP and conquer them. What sort of warscore do you have against Pol-Lit, what is their war enthusiasm, and have you captured any forts yet? If you haven't taken any forts yet, there's a good chance continuing until you do can exhaust you really well. I made a similar mistake in trying to fight the Ottos too soon, and wound up exhausting myself for little gain. edit: speaking of that, I have gotten really annoyed lately at the AIs willingness to peace out of a war when I declare on our mutual Rival. E.g. Lithuania is free of Poland, and allied with Novgorod. Muscovy declares on Novgorod, Lithuania joins. I declare on Muscovy to hit them while they are distracted. Novgorod pretty much immediately peaces out, taking themselves and Lithuania out of the war.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:09
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Bort Bortles posted:I think he is at peace and Muscovy is fighting Pol-Lit, so as Kazan he is debating if now is the time to try to smother Muscovy in the crib? Correct. The question is, is taking out Muscovy worth taking a ton of loans and hurting me economically for decades? I'm leaning towards yes since eliminating my biggest rival is permenant, money can fix itself with looting.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:39
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Palleon posted:Correct. The question is, is taking out Muscovy worth taking a ton of loans and hurting me economically for decades? I'm leaning towards yes since eliminating my biggest rival is permenant, money can fix itself with looting. I think it is. You can get the money back with looting. Leave a little buffer strip between yourself and pol-lit and you will have literally no opposition until pol-lit finish off muscovy, by which time you hopefully will rule the steppes.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:46
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Plus then you'll be rolling in dough from the moscow area
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Jan 8, 2016 18:58
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ImPureAwesome posted:Plus then you'll be rolling in dough from the moscow area Ehh I don't think hordes are ever rolling in dough, with the exception of gold mines maybe and even then that's relative. Keep in mind you don't get any passive autonomy reduction except -0.10/mo while at peace. And ideally you're not spending a lot of time at peace as a horde, so your economy grows at a glacial pace. It's easy to wreck enemy armies on your home territory, but sieging down Muscovy and Pol/Lit is another matter entirely. Probably worth it to take a few loans but don't expect to magically get a huge economy by biting off chunks of Russia, you're gonna still be poor as dirt. Here's my Oirat map ca. 1520, think I'm doing pretty well but definitely haven't been tryharding for world conquest or anything. Not having their -25% core discount as second NI is a huuuuge disadvantage relative to Kazan. For some perspective I have 1100 development and pretty great control of trade routes, but my total income is 32 ducats/mo (including two maxed gold mines) which is really anemic. I'm cleaning up Persia, have footholds in India, broken up Ming and am about to take on Muscovy. 
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Jan 8, 2016 19:12
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Palleon posted:Correct. The question is, is taking out Muscovy worth taking a ton of loans and hurting me economically for decades? I'm leaning towards yes since eliminating my biggest rival is permenant, money can fix itself with looting. Oh yeah I totally misread that. Yes, take the loans. Murdering Muscovy is priority #1.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:43
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Hey guys, Am I missing something or is the influence idea group bugged? the idea postal service says it gives you +1 diplomatic relations and -25% envoy travle time. But as a Kingdom when I get that idea, I'm still only allowed 5 diplomatic relations.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:46
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Atreiden posted:Hey guys, Being a Kingdom gives you +1 diplomat, not +1 diplomatic relations.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:48
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Pellisworth posted:Ehh I don't think hordes are ever rolling in dough, with the exception of gold mines maybe and even then that's relative. I'm in a pretty similar situation with 146 more development, but over twice the monthly income. No income boosters from ideas, but my income shot up when I switched from syncretic Sunni to Hindu. I've got two more gold mines and I guess control over the Chinese trade goods is better than Persia/India. 
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Jan 8, 2016 20:18
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Chickpea Roar posted:I'm in a pretty similar situation with 146 more development, but over twice the monthly income. No income boosters from ideas, but my income shot up when I switched from syncretic Sunni to Hindu. Yeah I'm syncretic Hindu as well, really starting to feel a need for Humanist ideas because even with +4 Heathen Tolerance my Religious Unity is getting kinda gnarly to manage. I'm collecting in Yumen because I have a monopoly over it, Samarkand would be theoretically more trade income but there's too many assholes downstream pulling massive Caravan Power through it still. Edit: and yeah you're a couple decades more advanced and have better trade goods, I have loads of lovely wool provinces. Edit2: a major thing is I'm running 10/mo in fort maintenance, probably could cut down. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 20:38
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PleasingFungus posted:Being a Kingdom gives you +1 diplomat, not +1 diplomatic relations. Cheers, thanks for the quick answer. No idea why I thought otherwise now that I look at it.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:51
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also a minor advantage of staying Tengri (as Oirat, for example), is you can switch syncretic faiths for slightly quicker vassal integration
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Jan 8, 2016 21:01
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Pellisworth posted:Yeah I'm syncretic Hindu as well, really starting to feel a need for Humanist ideas because even with +4 Heathen Tolerance my Religious Unity is getting kinda gnarly to manage. Literally the first thing that happened after making that post was that I got an event with a choice between +15% autonomy in a bunch of provinces or -1 stab. As far as I could see most of the provinces were lovely 1/1/1/ steppe provinces, so I chose that expecting a small income hit, but that autonomy increase affected way more provinces than what the event said, so I lost 18 income per month  Edit: I need Humanism so I can switch to Nahuatl for +20% razing power gain 
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Jan 8, 2016 21:08
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Are event outcomes determined when the window pops up to deter save scumming? Rag on me all you want, but as Castile I've had a ruler languishing in Regency for a decade now and at 12yrs old I get the event that he's ill. I can either pay for 50% chance or pray for 75% chance of death. Of course, the replacement heir if he dies is a newborn so I'd be hosed into another stretch of Regency. That council of dickheads is tanking my legitimacy and I just want for go ahead and diplomatically form Spain for the first time. I've tried reloading, advancing a bit of time before choosing, and closing and opening the program again. So far the dude is dead as a doornail every time.
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Jan 8, 2016 22:34
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