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jivjov posted:I've never understood the resistance to the term "light side" Its the obvious inverse of 'dark side', and Episode VII keeps harping on about light as the antithesis to darkness. At least for me, reducing it to "The Force, oh and the Dark Side" just seemed off. For me, it has nothing to do with philosophy or canon, just with the way the words sound. There is no gravitas to "Light Side" it doesn't sound serious enough, I feel they would have picked a more, I don't know, less oppositional word maybe. Light side feels like they are defining themselves as the opposite of the Dark Side rather than as the standard.
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Jan 8, 2016 05:52
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remusclaw posted:For me, it has nothing to do with philosophy or canon, just with the way the words sound. There is no gravitas to "Light Side" it doesn't sound serious enough, I feel they would have picked a more, I don't know, less oppositional word maybe. Light side feels like they are defining themselves as the opposite of the Dark Side rather than as the standard. Pretty sure that's because it is the opposite. There is good and evil, but no middle ground in Star Wars. Even characters that try their hardest to not get involved, like Han Solo, eventually pick a side.
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Jan 8, 2016 07:08
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I don't think they ever say "light side" in the movies. Just The Force and the Dark Side. Not 100% sure of the prequels but those don't count anyway so
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Jan 8, 2016 08:24
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Finster Dexter posted:I don't think they ever say "light side" in the movies. Just The Force and the Dark Side. Not 100% sure of the prequels but those don't count anyway so Not in the originals if I remember right, as close as it gets is when Luke asks Yoda something along the lines of "How am I supposed to know the good side from the bad?" I agree on your other point too, I have long ago decided that the only part of any series that matters is the part I like. Edit: If I have to share with others though, like in a game for instance, canon can be negotiable. No point in being an rear end about it. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 08:31
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remusclaw posted:Edit: If I have to share with others though, like in a game for instance, canon can be negotiable. No point in being an rear end about it. Careful, there are fanboys out there who will have your head for that comment.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:04
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Anyone who argues canonicity in relation to a tabletop RPG is missing the point of the medium.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:05
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Galaga Galaxian posted:There is more to the Dark Side than just the Sith. EG: The Imperial Inquisition and the Nightsisters of Dathomir (TCW ver.) And those are very much crab buckets where might makes right.  Regarding the mecanical superiority of the dark side at low level , yeah, that's how it should be. It IS easier and more seductive after all. The catch is, A) RPGs seldom deal with long term consequences. Most campaigns end after what, a few ingame years, tops? Meaning that consequences of using the dark side vs the light side won't really be seen. B) If you take the big dip, and don't act like someone who runs on negative emotions such as anger, fear, or sadism on a daily basis because that's what you need to use your powers, then that's a problem with how you roleplay.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:37
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The point is to subject the players to the vagaries of my headcanon, right?
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Jan 8, 2016 14:37
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Dark Side isn't mechanically superior at low levels. It is mechanically superior at any given level of the game!
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Jan 8, 2016 14:41
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ProfessorCirno posted:Dark Side isn't mechanically superior at low levels. It is mechanically superior at any given level of the game! Until you have a bunch of force powers that require multiple pips to make full use of, and you don't want to eat the strain hit from using dark pips.
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Jan 8, 2016 14:51
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jivjov posted:Until you have a bunch of force powers that require multiple pips to make full use of, and you don't want to eat the strain hit from using dark pips. And by the time you hit that, you'll also have a high enough Force Rating to comfortably hit those pips as a dark sider. Don't forget - you don't just eat strain from using dark pips with F&D morality, it actively lowers your morality and turns you more to the dark side - in which case you don't eat strain, because now you're a sith, making you objectively mechanically stronger then any jedi. Again, dark side favors consistent amounts of pips that gradually increase in power, light side favors intermittent bursts that are feast or famine - except the feast is typically more then you can actually eat. Also, each upgrade only costs one pip, so you don't NEED that many pips to begin with? Like one pip to activate, one for strength, I guess one for magnitude? That's three. Remember, pips don't decide actual power when using an offensive power - you use an actual (and far more interesting) skill for that. Like, at the end of the day, my complaint remains "force die are not set up for player power usage." They're boring (no cost/boost), they overwhelmingly favor failure, they don't really fit the fluff, etc. And while pre-F&D you could salvage things by spending strain, you can no longer do that in F&D.
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Jan 8, 2016 15:06
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jivjov posted:They're showing up in the Technician book. Of course, its possible they're in both...but I can dream. Quermian or Thisspiasian perhaps?
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Jan 8, 2016 16:12
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ProfessorCirno posted:Dark Side isn't mechanically superior at low levels. It is mechanically superior at any given level of the game! Come to think of it, this is always how it was in WEG. Dark Side points were a pretty big boon. The Dark Side HAS to be more seductive for this whole thing to work. That was always the best part of Dark Side points in WEG, imo... the temptation.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:39
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ProfessorCirno posted:And by the time you hit that, you'll also have a high enough Force Rating to comfortably hit those pips as a dark sider. Don't forget - you don't just eat strain from using dark pips with F&D morality, it actively lowers your morality and turns you more to the dark side - in which case you don't eat strain, because now you're a sith, making you objectively mechanically stronger then any jedi. I think for me it boils down to "stronger" doesn't necessarily mean "superior." In other RPGs, sure, you could just murder a shopkeeper (probably a relatively weak and defenseless NPC compared to your heroic axe-wielder) and take his stuff rather than going on a quest to obtain more money so you can afford his goods, but that doesn't mean the authorities won't track you down, or even send more powerful adventurers after you to make your life hell. It seems like it remains up to the GM to make using the Dark Side have challenges of its own, like "Oh hey, there are groups of Jedi hunting you" or "There's another group of Dark Side users who want to make a name for themselves by taking you down". And for players who dip too much into the Dark Side, maybe there's also the "your face starts to degenerate so it looks like a robot's rear end in a top hat so nobody trusts you" hook. Nobody says the destructive power of the Dark Side can be easily contained in someone's body- especially if they have a low Force rating. Just because you get better dice rolls doesn't necessarily mean you aren't stacking the deck against yourself in other ways.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:41
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FuriousAngle posted:I think for me it boils down to "stronger" doesn't necessarily mean "superior." There is definitely a problem when one's solution to "player chooses mechanically overpowered/spotlight-hogging things" is "make the game even more about that character."
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Jan 8, 2016 17:00
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Yeah that sounds more like a reward than a problem to me.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:10
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homullus posted:There is definitely a problem when one's solution to "player chooses mechanically overpowered/spotlight-hogging things" is "make the game even more about that character." Oh sorry, were we talking about overshadowing other PCs? For some reason I thought it was about "what if a group decides to go Dark Side together." Then at that point it's more of an issue for the other PCs to deal with. "Do we really want to keep dealing with this rear end in a top hat in our group?" should be a question they'd need to ask. If I were balancing the game for a mixed party I'd have to think about other setbacks... like leaving the Dark Sider out completely when it comes to socializing because noooooobody wants to deal with a Dark Sider if they can help it. And then make large stretches of the game about socialization to encourage the other players to take the spotlight. Of course, that wouldn't work in a party where they mainly want to fight stuff. What a pickle.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:13
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Yeah, at the very least the Bêta Version of F&D stresses out that being a Dark Sider should have meaningful consequences for the character, not just being a shortcut to power.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:17
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FuriousAngle posted:Oh sorry, were we talking about overshadowing other PCs? For some reason I thought it was about "what if a group decides to go Dark Side together." I think that's important to remember, too: this particular imbalance falls across all F&D specializations, so if everyone really is going dark side (not capitalized per the guidance given by LucasArts), it ought to be fine.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:27
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homullus posted:
Man, this thread is informative in soooo many different ways! (Not being sarcastic, by the way... I really didn't know that!)
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Jan 8, 2016 17:31
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dark side (not capitalized per the guidance given by LucasArts),
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I think this whole discussion has been really interesting to me because it makes me feel like the system is better designed than the game itself left me feeling. The Dark Side is better, it is tempting, every time you know you can spend destiny and use those dark pips instead, those times you let go of self restraint and embrace your abject hatred to jump across that 40 foot gap is intoxicating. It's so easy to do it one or two times, it would be so much easier to just do it, just use the dark side. But that's the whole point of it - it lowers your morality, because the Dark Side is corrupting. You use it once or twice, thinking you can handle it, its not that big of an issue. But then your morality is low, and you fail to do something you have to do that's important. That's when you take that step where you actually embrace the dark side, because it's been there, so much easier, so much better than the self control. It's fitting in the fluff. There doesn't need to be a negative in mechanics for using the Dark Side - it is literally drawing power from hate, anger, ambition, fear, all kinds of bad things. A character should cause their own problems RP wise by embracing the dark side, not 'you get hit with a stick for doing this'. There would be no coolness in remaining lightsided if there was 0 temptation.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:41
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The thing with the morality system, if I'm reading it right, you probably actually want to get a point or two of conflict per session; a conflict of one or two gives you a good chance to actually increase your morality score. Which means light side Steve who always makes the moral choice when RP chances to take conflict come up will mostly get his by...taking strain to convert dark side pips over.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:42
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Kitty Empress has ot right in my opinion. ^ Though if your exemple only ever take the "moral choice", then the problem lies with the GM presenting only "Save or kill the kitten" kind of choices, which is hardly interesting. Conflict should spring of hard choices, with the temptation of getting mad, acting rashly or violently, or having to tap into fear of failure for that extra boost. E: In addition, getting a couple of points just to maximise your chance of an increase strikes me as gaming the system. You want your character's morality to change? Then do so! Propel them into situations that challenge their beliefs! Why should someone gain morality from always acting in accordance to their creed without thinking about what it means? True parangonhood should come of having their beliefs and action tested. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 17:53
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So, I ran some numbers on anydice.com at these URLs http://anydice.com/program/760c http://anydice.com/program/760d Final stats are here: https://gist.github.com/finsterdexter/e79824e15173306ce543#file-forcestats-md From that, you can see the general trend. Basically, Light side always has better chances to get the higher pip values for a certain force rating. The catch is that as your number of dice goes up, Light side still gets the better chances for higher end of that spectrum, but dark side catches up very quickly. In the higher force ratings, for any number of pips that will be generally useful (1-3) dark side will always have better chances.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:54
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Iceclaw posted:Kitty Empress has ot right in my opinion. Well, yes, but this in context of people banging on about how going dark side is the only mathematically effective choice because of the morality system, so addressing it as a mechanical thing seems perfectly apt.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:06
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How's the quest in the Force and Destiny Beginner game? My friends and I have been out of the game since Age of Rebellion hit (despite me buying every release because I have ~problems~) but Force Awakens makes me want to do a fun easy one session thing. The EotE beginner quest was fun, how is this one?
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Jan 8, 2016 20:09
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I mean, my issue with force rolls remain that they are just real boring. The dice are weighted towards failure, and unlike everything else in the game, failure doesn't mean something interesting still happens, it just means you do nothing. Using the Force is pushed towards completely wasted actions - which is something the game is otherwise real good about not having.
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Jan 8, 2016 22:58
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Well that is because the force is Do or Do Not, There Is No Try.  Seriously though, it is kind of a shame the force power roll is so binary, but I dunno what could be done to amend it without drastically changing how it works.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:01
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Well that is because the force is Do or Do Not, There Is No Try. Probably could have tied some guaranteed pips to your Force rating (like, say, rating -1) and then had you roll.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:08
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Add advantages and disadvantage to the force die?
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Jan 8, 2016 23:26
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Well, and you can't even really say that rolls are weighted toward failure...because there are no blank faces.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:44
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jivjov posted:Well, and you can't even really say that rolls are weighted toward failure...because there are no blank faces. Yes, you will always pass a force power roll. If you are willing to pay the price.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:53
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And even resisting the temptation to use the dark points that pop up can be interesting, it doesn't have to be "oh no light pips, okay next turn".
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Jan 8, 2016 23:55
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The more interesting villains are the ones who do bad things for good causes.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:57
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DemonMage posted:And even resisting the temptation to use the dark points that pop up can be interesting, it doesn't have to be "oh no light pips, okay next turn". See, now this is sounding even more interesting. I may approach my group with a "hey let's TRY being Force sensitive..." campaign. Maybe along the lines of "see how long you can hold out before just giving in and goin' for it!"
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Jan 8, 2016 23:58
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I'm running a force-sensitive character in an EotE campaign where nobody else is a force user and it's going fine. I look forward to being both very useful due to contributing some unique abilities via powers and a gigantic liability when the Empire inevitably gets wind of my character's existence. Especially since the Empire has been delivering our paychecks so far.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:01
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You might not be a liability if you're willing to go away for awhile and take these courses on Proper Imperial Agent Use of Force Sensitivity in Furthering the Empire's Goals. A little (re-)education and you're on your way!
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Jan 9, 2016 00:03
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DemonMage posted:You might not be a liability if you're willing to go away for awhile and take these courses on Proper Imperial Agent Use of Force Sensitivity in Furthering the Empire's Goals. A little (re-)education and you're on your way! How's the pay? I got a debt to pay off, man.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:54
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On the upside, you get a snappy wardrobe and a payraise. On the downside, you have to use a double lightsaber that turns into a goofy propeller.
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Jan 9, 2016 01:05
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It does come with a substantial pay raise, fancy new equipment, a good requisitions budget and authority. But they're also way less forgiving of breaking regulations (though you have less of them to deal with), so it's a definite tradeoff.
DemonMage fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 02:00
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