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LingcodKilla posted:You find lithesome teen boys attractive? You're the loving worst.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:41
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Saalkin posted:You're the loving worst. You need to step away from the Internet and get some counseling.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:36
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a good rule in general is "no-one needs to hear what you think about anyone's looks" but an even better rule is "no-one needs to hear what you, specifically, lingcodkilla, think about anyone's looks"
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Jan 8, 2016 19:43
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"No one in the death thread will ever not be trolled"
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Jan 8, 2016 19:44
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Guys seriously nobody cares if you like twinks. Just make sure they are of legal age ok?
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Jan 8, 2016 19:48
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Guys seriously, DS9 had some of the best non-human characters of any Trek. Granted being main cast where others were mostly alien of the week helped, especially compared to the horrible Voyager, but still; Kira, Dukat, Martok, Quark, Garak, Weyoun, Odo. So much to them, so well acted.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:13
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Voyager was such a disappointment because the idea of confronting how the Federation's ideals and beliefs might endure in the face of serious resource limitation and hardship would have been pretty interesting. As someone said earlier, Star Trek is a post-scarcity society and sometimes that is pitched as what makes it 'work', so it would be interesting to break that down and say ok, how do these people function with scarcity? Do they compromise their society's beliefs in the face of hardship, and if so, how? The dual-origin crew would make that interesting because the Marquis provides an internal disruption in complement to the external pressure. But then the whole Marquis thing basically went nowhere after the first season (and not much there) and Voyagar was always able to readily resupply its shuttles and even build the Delta Flyer, and ultimately the only real hardship anyone had to suffer was Neelix's cooking and rationed coffee.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:20
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The real hardship was terrible writing. And terrible acting. And a terrible cast make up. And terrible make up. And the inability to grasp the borg, or the theme of the show. And the usual Star Trek terrible forced romance thing. I'd rather play Age of Sigmar than watch Voyager.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:23
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Spiderdrake posted:I'd rather play Age of Sigmar than watch Voyager. 
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Jan 8, 2016 20:25
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Spiderdrake posted:I'd rather play Age of Sigmar than watch Voyager. Let's not say things we'll regret later
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Jan 8, 2016 20:26
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boom boom boom posted:A lot of people called Rey boring, or a Mary Sue, but I really liked her. I'm not sure why, but something about the story of a mechanically inclined teen with neglectful parents who gets thrust into a space conflict and turns out to be not only an amazing piloting prodigy but also a nascent space psychic, and battles a masked young man who is secretly a family member of one of the teen's shipmates really appeals to me. Whether or not you liked Rey has nothing to do with her being a Mary Sue. If Rey does not have amnesia as people are suspecting, then yes she is a Mary Sue by definition. She is "an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities." She's better at piloting the Falcon than Lando, who owned the ship first. She's a crack shot with a pistol. She can Jedi Mind Trick on her first attempt with no prior training whatsoever (despite just finding out that Jedi are real mere hours prior). She is the only non-droid character in literally the entirety of Star Wars that can understand Astromechs. She can speak Wookiee. Everybody loves her in-universe. She's a perfect angel superhuman who has no flaws whatsoever, and it's the same reason why most people hate Superman (and his films tend to fail due to related issues). If it turns out she has amnesia, which would explain a ton of the stupidest aspects of her story (like how come she had a vision from touching Anakin's saber but Luke didn't, how she could be so proficient-- not STRONG, proficient-- with the Force, how she could speak Wookiee, why she didn't get completely floored by the deaths of like 7 planets' worth of people despite her supposed unwarranted Force potential, etc), then she is NOT a Mary Sue. It however remains a fault of crappy storytelling that the argument even exists in the first place. Keep in mind, this is also allowing for a bit of J. J. Abramsism because literally every character in TFA (including the old characters) are all atomic supermen who can do crazy poo poo unexplained. That's like saying, "A lot of people say Age of Sigmar is unbalanced, but I really like it!" Your opinion does not in any way affect a factual expression. You may as well say that 2+2 might equal 4, but you really like 3.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:29
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you can like rey, she's just a bad character it's okay to like bad characters lots of people liked boba fett, too
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Jan 8, 2016 20:42
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WAR FOOT posted:you can like rey, she's just a bad character Boba's an amateur. Cad Bane took over part of the senate building, with multiple senators inside and still walked away like a boss 
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Jan 8, 2016 20:50
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WAR FOOT posted:you can like rey, she's just a bad character Not just characters! It's okay to like bad things and dislike good things. It is not okay to confuse the two concepts, neither is it okay to get offended when somebody points out a thing you like is actually a bad thing. However, for the purposes of this thread, it is absolutely not okay to like GW because 99% of the time liking GW leads to spending money on GW since you fuckers have no sense of restraint.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:53
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Broken Loose posted:Whether or not you liked Rey has nothing to do with her being a Mary Sue. So she's exactly the same as Luke then. Weird, I pretty much never hear anyone call him a Mary Sue. There must be some reason, some difference between them to make people react that way, but I can't quite put my finger on it...
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Jan 8, 2016 20:59
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Icon Of Sin posted:Boba's an amateur. Cad Bane took over part of the senate building, with multiple senators inside and still walked away like a boss Cad Bane is the example proving that if you're a talented normal person, you have the drive and mentality, and you work and train really hard all your life, then on your good days you can be a serious enough threat to kill a Jedi on your own. Dude totally has a cool hat too. An Angry Bug posted:So she's exactly the same as Luke then. Weird, I pretty much never hear anyone call him a Mary Sue. There must be some reason, some difference between them to make people react that way, but I can't quite put my finger on it... In the entire first movie the only force tricks Luke used were blocking a training bot blind for a few minutes, and shooting straight with torpedoes. He didn't get into a saber fight until the second movie, in which the bad guy cut his loving hand off. Took him until the third movie to use mind tricks, and even then it only worked on the idiot attendant, Jabba laughed it off. Rey was using the full repertoire inside of two hours, up to and including beating the trained bad guy in a saber fight, which was the first time she'd turned on a saber, without taking a scratch in return. That's what people are talking about NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 21:01
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I don't remember her speaking wookie (but han obviously understands chewbacca, so he must "speak" wookie), lots of people seem to generally get the gist of what astromechs are saying, which is all she's doing - especially since BB8 actually uses gesture in a way R2 never could; Lando isn't even in the movie, and she absolutely does have a character flaw, which she grows out of over the course of the film: her unwillingness/inability to recognize that she was abandoned, her family/parents are never coming back, and waiting for them forever isn't going to help. She also assumes with no more evidence than BB8's gestures that a random stranger is a Bad Guy and is willing to try to kill him over it. And she's naive. The question of "is she a mary sue" is stupid and irrelevant, though. The only important thing is "is she an interesting, compelling character" and I certainly felt so. The actor did a great job, too.\ Broken Loose posted:It is not okay to confuse the two concepts, neither is it okay to get offended when somebody points out a thing you like is actually a bad thing. Actually, it totally is. It's OK. You need to let go of your anger and rage when people fail to meet your standards for film criticism, or when they don't like your lovely rants about how much things they like actually objectively suck. It's OK for people to have opinions you disagree with.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:05
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NTRabbit posted:including beating the trained bad guy in a saber fight, which was the first time she'd turned on a saber, without taking a scratch in return. That's what people are talking about Kylo Ren was suffering from a gutshot from Chewie's Bowcaster (which was sending storm troopers flying on hits), was wounded again by Finn, and was also kind messed up in the head From killing daddy and he was still winning until he was a dumbass and basically told her "have you tried using the force?" Also Kylo Ren's training is incomplete, and she's a scavenger who grew up on a desert hellhole world and was already shown to be competent with melee weapons when she clowned Plutt's thugs when they tried to steal BB-8. And her saber fighting was kinda sloppy for a lot of it, she was basically doing awkward thrusts (kind of like a staff) at Kylo for a lot of it, which he wasn't havent' much trouble defending against. As for the mind trick, Kylo Ren tried to use it on her (And failed) which is where she got the idea to use it on the stormtrooper, and it still took her a couple tries. 
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Jan 8, 2016 21:11
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If this thread is about anything it's about how it's ok to have different opinions.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:11
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I didn't really think she was a mary sue but I also didn't have problems figuring out what 'the resistance' meant so maybe I just don't parse movies that way. Hey, does Sigmar (the guy) actually do anything in Age of Sigmar as an aside? People have posted excerpts of the various "novels" and it always sounds like THUNDERGUY MCHAMMERPUNCHCHAOS is the one doing things.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:11
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An Angry Bug posted:So she's exactly the same as Luke then. Weird, I pretty much never hear anyone call him a Mary Sue. There must be some reason, some difference between them to make people react that way, but I can't quite put my finger on it... You see Luke playing with a T16, has a rifle in his speeder, and talks about bulls eyeing womp rats. Rey gets a concept art of her working on a custom XYB-wing that might fly but instead we don't see any of that. Hope this clears it up. 
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Jan 8, 2016 21:12
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Chill la Chill posted:You see Luke playing with a T16, has a rifle in his speeder, and talks about bulls eyeing womp rats. Rey gets a concept art of her working on a custom XYB-wing that might fly but instead we don't see any of that. Hope this clears it up. And we see Rey doing dangerous acrobatics while scavenging with her mechanical skills (which she needs to be good at to eat), clowning some thugs (and Finn) with her staff, not hesitating at all to threaten a mounted alien at knifepoint, and talks about how she's flown a bunch of poo poo (including her own custom built speeder/swoop).
Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 21:14
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Rey was bad Gamora was cool TFA does a lot of telling instead of showing and the telling is in supplementary materials much like GW????
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Jan 8, 2016 21:18
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I think maybe the "problem," if there is one, is just the Star Wars setting, in which the magic users are also the elite fighters, and they're born with it. Jedi are the Mary Sues of the setting, but it's way too late to do poo poo about that now. If you've got the Force, it makes you good at everything: social interactions, mechanical tinkering, piloting, firefights, melee fighting, you're just the best at everything. Rey is gonna be a Jedi obviously and so she fits that mold. I actually think the writers did a decent job of humanizing her, in a way they totally failed to do with most of the jedi in the prequels. They also show on-screen her learning things from others; she's learning jedi tricks from the bad guy, which is something new and refreshing for the franchise.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:20
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Me with Star Wars chat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYTc55nGEI
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Jan 8, 2016 21:23
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I don't think Ren ever used the mind trick, he just sorta made a face like he was holding in a massive fart while twisting his hand at her also, why DID chewies bowcaster turn from RPG against stormtroopers and walls to .38 vs him
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Jan 8, 2016 21:25
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No one cares that you don't care. Everyone must suffer a derail they don't like, whether it be Gundams, Football vs Football vs Rugby, or Star Wars. [edit] Even if was "just" a .38, I'd like to see anyone try to sword fight after being shot in the abdomen with even a pistol. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 21:25
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An Angry Bug posted:So she's exactly the same as Luke then. Weird, I pretty much never hear anyone call him a Mary Sue. There must be some reason, some difference between them to make people react that way, but I can't quite put my finger on it... Luke had hours and hours of training with Obi-Wan on board the Falcon. Remember the whole blind lightsaber stuff? Also, he spent the entirety of A New Hope getting his rear end saved over and over and nobody liked him because he was naive and a country yokel. Han, Obi-Wan, and Leia carried him throughout the whole movie. If Rey had been in A New Hope, she would have held off Vader while the Falcon escaped instead of Obi-Wan. She would have also found a way out of the garbage compactor on her own. Leperflesh posted:I don't remember her speaking wookie (but han obviously understands chewbacca, so he must "speak" wookie), lots of people seem to generally get the gist of what astromechs are saying, which is all she's doing - especially since BB8 actually uses gesture in a way R2 never could; Lando isn't even in the movie, and she absolutely does have a character flaw, which she grows out of over the course of the film: her unwillingness/inability to recognize that she was abandoned, her family/parents are never coming back, and waiting for them forever isn't going to help. There is no question of whether or not she's a Mary Sue because she is by definition. She only is interesting and compelling to people like you who go out of their way to overlook her problems. The actor's performance is independent of this discussion. Leperflesh posted:Actually, it totally is. It's OK. You need to let go of your anger and rage when people fail to meet your standards for film criticism, or when they don't like your lovely rants about how much things they like actually objectively suck. It's OK for people to have opinions you disagree with.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:27
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Leperflesh posted:I think maybe the "problem," if there is one, is just the Star Wars setting, in which the magic users are also the elite fighters, and they're born with it. Jedi are the Mary Sues of the setting, but it's way too late to do poo poo about that now. Here's a solution: kill all the loving Jedi. The best part is that's actually the plot of the prequels.  Jedi suck and are boring and Luke was at his best when his Jedi skills consisted of "hnnnnnnng if I try really hard I can pick something up from far away". Sign me up for a Star Wars thing that's like the Witcher where the "badass" warrior dudes are an anachronism and being outcompeted by regular assholes. Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 21:32
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Just like to point out calling people to grow up when arguing over Star Wars is.... Silly.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:34
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JJ Abrams just wasn't the right director, he hasn't ever made anything good
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Jan 8, 2016 21:38
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Avenging Dentist posted:Here's a solution: kill all the loving Jedi. The best part is that's actually the plot of the prequels. You want a grimdark "shades of grey" sci-fi universe full of regular assholes, there are plenty of other franchises for that (many of them quite excellent). Leave my space fantasy with magic space knights with laser swords, cackling evil space wizards, and black-and-white morality alone. 
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Jan 8, 2016 21:38
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Obi-Wan was poo poo at training and knew it and complained about it, and all he trained Luke to do was to laser sword fight. You are making up poo poo. If Rey had been in A New Hope that would have been a different movie and written differently. Rey lives in a multicultural society where she could easily have known a previous wookie. Lots of people "understand" R2 when he's being gestural, but for the most part, BB8 is just a much more articulate character - which is fantastic. If we, the audience can intuit what he's trying to say, it'd be nonsensical and weird for Rey not to! There's no subtitles for the droid, but it's still obvious what BB8 is saying. So you're just conflating BB8 with R2 and saying "well their both astromechs so obviously nobody is allowed to understand BB8 either like that's a required thing. "That flaw isn't a narrative flaw" I don't even know what you mean. Were we discussing narrative flaws now? What is that? A flaw in the story? I thought we were discussing character flaws, and her reluctance to join in and be a good guy because guys, she really needs to go back to her lovely desert home and she can't recognize that she'd be killed by storm troopers if she did, that's a flaw in her character. It's something that humanizes her. The problem with Mary Sue characters is that they're too good, they're not relatable, they always get everything right. I don't think Rey is like that; she's fitting the mold for a Jedi-potential in this universe, which is certainly that of a superhuman, but that's a flaw the filmmakers have to work with. Lando didn't necessarily lose the dish due to being a poor pilot, he lost it because there wasn't room, or just luck, or he had to dodge a laser blast, or whatever. But in any case, who cares? Just because Lando drove the Falcon a lot doesn't mean he has to be a brilliant pilot. He's a gambler and an administrator and a ladies' man, there's nothing in the original trilogy to suggest he's also a brilliant pilot. "Rey is better at flying the falcon than Lando" is a weird and irrelevant complaint. It's much more of a problem that some junkheap ship that's been sitting there unmoving for years is suddenly super-maneuverable and flyable. Rey's capabilities in that sequence are not the problem: the ship's capabilities are the problem. Broken Loose posted:There is no question of whether or not she's a Mary Sue because she is by definition. That is circular reasoning. "She's definitely a mary sue because she's definitely a mary sue." Come on. Finally: I'm not in the same room as you so I don't know if you're actually mad. But your posts come off like you're seething with rage, and if that's not the case, seriously, you need to revise your posting style. I'm not responsible for second-guessing your intent and I'm certainly not alone in reading them that way. You're always in super-aggro attack mode and you come off like someone who seriously cannot deal with other people not agreeing with you on points you feel are facts rather than opinions. "Grow up." Seriously? Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 21:40
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Man, if only i had copy-pasted the dictionary definition to what a Mary Sue was on this very page, then it'd be possible to cross-reference the whole "by definition" thing.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:43
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I am arguing that she does not fit the dictionary definition of a mary sue, at least, not beyond what was necessary in order to portray her as probably-going-to-be-a-Jedi. She's no more of a Mary Sue than Luke was, and a lot less of one than Annikan in the first prequel. This is a horrible arugment that half the thread readers hate, but if you want to actually engage in this argument, I'm gonna call you out on blatant circular logic.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:46
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Galaga Galaxian posted:You want a grimdark "shades of grey" sci-fi universe full of regular assholes, there are plenty of other franchises for that (many of them quite excellent). Leave my space fantasy with magic space knights with laser swords, cackling evil space wizards, and black-and-white morality alone. I don't need it to be morally grey like the Witcher. I just think that regular non-magical assholes like Han are more interesting. I think Jedi work best when the main Jedi in the movie rely more on their wits than in their magic powers. Luke's Jedi poo poo on Hoth is cool because it's clearly giving him an edge, but he's still vulnerable and gets himself in trouble and needs someone more-experienced (Han) to save his rear end. When the tables are turned in Jedi and Luke rescues Han with his newfound superpowers, it's a lot harder for me to get involved. It's like yeah obviously Luke's going to win because he's the only Jedi in the room.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:46
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LingcodKilla posted:Just like to point out calling people to grow up when arguing over Star Wars is.... Silly. You should instead imply that people are various flavor of sex fiend, predator or deviant like LingcodKilla. Also christ how is any person with any sense today even paying attention to the stupid "Mary Sue" bullshit argument. It's nonsense not just on the face of it but also when done in comparison with literally any other protagonist in the Star Wars series, unless somehow the movies have suddenly become unable to handle having a genius force-sensitive pilot who is good with robots in the lead. Stop embarrassing yourselves even harder than you already are.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:47
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Avenging Dentist posted:I don't need it to be morally grey like the Witcher. I just think that regular non-magical assholes like Han are more interesting. I think Jedi work best when the main Jedi in the movie rely more on their wits than in their magic powers. Luke's Jedi poo poo on Hoth is cool because it's clearly giving him an edge, but he's still vulnerable and gets himself in trouble and needs someone more-experienced (Han) to save his rear end. When the tables are turned in Jedi and Luke rescues Han with his newfound superpowers, it's a lot harder for me to get involved. It's like yeah obviously Luke's going to win because he's the only Jedi in the room. Most of that is problems with the writing (in your opinon anyways), not with the concept of Magic Space Knights. And if you think Han Solo is more interesting there are plenty of sci-fi universes full of Han Solos. How many have Magic Space Knights?
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Jan 8, 2016 21:49
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Avenging Dentist posted:I just think that regular non-magical assholes like Han are more interesting. This is why I like Wedge. He's not a magical space-wizard, just a drat good normal pilot that aced imperial pilots left and right across both Death Stars.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:49
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Avenging Dentist posted:I don't need it to be morally grey like the Witcher. I just think that regular non-magical assholes like Han are more interesting. I think Jedi work best when the main Jedi in the movie rely more on their wits than in their magic powers. Luke's Jedi poo poo on Hoth is cool because it's clearly giving him an edge, but he's still vulnerable and gets himself in trouble and needs someone more-experienced (Han) to save his rear end. When the tables are turned in Jedi and Luke rescues Han with his newfound superpowers, it's a lot harder for me to get involved. It's like yeah obviously Luke's going to win because he's the only Jedi in the room. Even in Jedi, though, Luke never accomplishes anything on his own, ever. He always needs help, even in the final climax, he is defeated by the Emperor and only saved by his dad's intervention. He saves Han only after Jabba basically owns the poo poo out of him and his friends come to his rescue. But I do agree that the Star Wars setting would be a lot more interesting to me if the Jedi were just off in the background most of the time, and we focused more on the characters who aren't demigods.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:49
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