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A Steampunk Gent posted:The problem with TFA is it goes by so quickly, with such a heavy focus on breakneck action scenes and a deliberate aversion to anything which might make people cry about 'space politics!!' (i.e. context) that there's not really a ton to speak about; we don't know what Kylo Ren's deal is, nor Luke's, Leia had most of her scenes cut, the climax of the film is a tedious retread of the original film - pushing away room for anything novel or interesting to happen. It's exciting enough to watch for the most part but as a stand-alone film it does feel pretty hollow There's actually plenty to read into. Even the cantina scene that certain people seem to loathe has a ton of cute homages to genres and works that influenced Star Wars or the creators of TFA, and better develop its setting.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:29
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Neurolimal posted:There is also a difference between "is the" and "for the most part is the". If you ask the majority (most) of people what they thought of the prequels they would not say "Jar was good as the protagonist of the series, and I cry every time i hear Dexter Jettster's bigotry towards 'the robohelp'". Why do you care what normies and CineD posting superstars think?
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Jan 8, 2016 23:31
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A Steampunk Gent posted:The problem with TFA is it goes by so quickly, with such a heavy focus on breakneck action scenes and a deliberate aversion to anything which might make people cry about 'space politics!!' (i.e. context) that there's not really a ton to speak about; we don't know what Kylo Ren's deal is, nor Luke's, Leia had most of her scenes cut, the climax of the film is a tedious retread of the original film - pushing away room for anything novel or interesting to happen. It's exciting enough to watch for the most part but as a stand-alone film it does feel pretty hollow I think Kylo Ren is at least as interesting a character as Darth Vader was in A New Hope. Personally, I think he's leagues more interesting. And, while I won't argue with the movie's pace being a bit too brisk, I didn't find the climax tedious or any more of a retread than, say, the droid control ship plot in The Phantom Menace. In both cases, they're set up to reflect the original: Anakin's adventure is echoing his son's, while the Starkiller base section is about in-universe Star Wars fans being thrust into the stories they've been hearing since childhood. There's lots of interesting things going on in the movie. The difference is that we've had ten to fifteen years to stew over the prequels and sift through themes and imagery, while The Force Awakens is only a few weeks old, and still in theatres.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:31
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computer parts posted:You've identified a reading that is not "correct". This doesn't mean there is a correct reading. Their reading is correct to themselves, and that is all that matters. Any use of "correct reading" on my part is shorthand for "most influential reading that is agreed upon the most and of which future works are most likely to be influenced by".
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Jan 8, 2016 23:32
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Neurolimal posted:Their reading is correct to themselves, and that is all that matters. Any use of "correct reading" on my part is shorthand for "most influential reading that is agreed upon the most and of which future works are most likely to be influenced by". You seem to view it as immoral to attempt to persuade people about alternate readings.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:34
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Neurolimal posted:There's actually plenty to read into. Even the cantina scene that certain people seem to loathe has a ton of cute homages to genres and works that influenced Star Wars or the creators of TFA, and better develop its setting. I'll read a big Cnut-style effortpost about this if you'll write it.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:34
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Why do you care what normies and CineD posting superstars think? Because the former are worthy of consideration and acceptance, and the latter has some good ideas but are often actively hostile towards the common man and their opinions (which is amusing, considering their political opinions often gravitate towards leftism and populism). quote:You seem to view it as immoral to attempt to persuade people about alternate readings. Derision and dismissal are not typically considered persuasion. I would expect better of a group that has been on the receiving end of this before. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 23:34
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TFA is fun, but it also feels cruel when you think about it. The end of RoTJ brings the 6 film cycle to a hopeful close that by throwing away his lightsaber, loving his enemy, and kind of reinventing the Jedi. Darth Vader kills Palpatine and dies, the old Jedi and old Sith are gone. The Force has been balance, and maybe the destructive conflict between Jedi/Sith that has plagued the galaxy for like 10,000 years is finally over. Maybe there's a reason the Skywalker family is so important. But actually no gently caress you, these characters and this galaxy will never have peace as long as we're willing to buy a ticket to see their latest crisis. There's always going to be more laser sword larping, always another death planet. I think that's the reason Lucas insisted that Star Wars was over when the story of Vader was over. Vader ended the star wars. "They died" may seem like a cruel statement, but it was actually a blessing.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:36
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Sir Lemming posted:That's more or less how I feel too. If Lucas really did intend to convey a lot of the things people (not just SMG) are claiming, I still feel he did a poor job as a director, because he really didn't direct the audience's attention towards this stuff. He focused on absolutely everything else. I guess your mileage may vary -- some people will say stuff was obvious, others won't. And you can always argue that Lucas deliberately hid this stuff from the average viewer to make some sort of point. Personally I just don't buy that. While this isn't entirely unreasonable, it also sounds like refusing to give audiences any responsibility for interpreting and understanding art/their own feelings. I think we should encourage audiences to try harder, not allow them to reject anything but the most obvious and familiar readings.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:36
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Frackie Robinson posted:TFA is fun, but it also feels cruel when you think about it. The end of RoTJ brings the 6 film cycle to a hopeful close that by throwing away his lightsaber, loving his enemy, and kind of reinventing the Jedi. Darth Vader kills Palpatine and dies, the old Jedi and old Sith are gone. The Force has been balance, and maybe the destructive conflict between Jedi/Sith that has plagued the galaxy for like 10,000 years is finally over. Maybe there's a reason the Skywalker family is so important. But what if the entire galaxy missed the point? That's a compelling hook, at least.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:37
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Lt. Danger posted:While this isn't entirely unreasonable, it also sounds like refusing to give audiences any responsibility for interpreting and understanding art/their own feelings. I think we should encourage audiences to try harder, not allow them to reject anything but the most obvious and familiar readings. Yea but there are movies that are worth trying harder for. The prequels are objectively bad movies with some pretty cool ideas, that doesn't make them good movies. I make music, if I do some cool stuff but it still sounds like poo poo, its a poo poo song. My intent has nothing to do with it even if I am trying to do something groundbreaking.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:39
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bruvs be4 luvs
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Phylodox posted:I think Kylo Ren is at least as interesting a character as Darth Vader was in A New Hope. Personally, I think he's leagues more interesting. And, while I won't argue with the movie's pace being a bit too brisk, I didn't find the climax tedious or any more of a retread than, say, the droid control ship plot in The Phantom Menace. In both cases, they're set up to reflect the original: Anakin's adventure is echoing his son's, while the Starkiller base section is about in-universe Star Wars fans being thrust into the stories they've been hearing since childhood. There's lots of interesting things going on in the movie. The difference is that we've had ten to fifteen years to stew over the prequels and sift through themes and imagery, while The Force Awakens is only a few weeks old, and still in theatres. The frustrating thing about Kylo Ren is that he's a compelling enough character that he raises lots of questions (questions that we never really asked about Vader in ANH), but for no good reason the movie withholds important information about him that would have made some of his scenes resonate a lot more. Kylo Ren is like if we got all of Vader's scenes in Empire except for the reveal at the end that makes them all make sense.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:40
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:I'll read a big Cnut-style effortpost about this if you'll write it. I don't have the time at the moment (patching and painting basement walls) but as a quick example that is also probably the easiest: what do you think of the fat alien and dominatrix-esque girlfriend? Do you believe they have any connection to 70's or older science fiction? What does it say about the creators of TFA that in spite of the art they homage, the woman's outfit is far more conservative/"normal" for examples of the genre, and the male is both passive and enjoys her company? I'm sure more could be read from them, but those are the quick ones off the top of my head. A few pages back there was a pretty good compound pic of most of the cantina patrons if you're interested in looking further.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:42
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Frackie Robinson posted:The frustrating thing about Kylo Ren is that he's a compelling enough character that he raises lots of questions (questions that we never really asked about Vader in ANH), but for no good reason the movie withholds important information about him that would have made some of his scenes resonate a lot more. Kylo Ren is like if we got all of Vader's scenes in Empire except for the reveal at the end that makes them all make sense. 2 more movies...
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Jan 8, 2016 23:43
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Dubplate Fire posted:Yea but there are movies that are worth trying harder for. The prequels are objectively bad movies with some pretty cool ideas, that doesn't make them good movies. Sounds like you didn't try hard enough, my friend.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:43
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Dubplate Fire posted:Yea but there are movies that are worth trying harder for. The prequels are objectively bad movies with some pretty cool ideas, that doesn't make them good movies. I make music, if I do some cool stuff but it still sounds like poo poo, its a poo poo song. My intent has nothing to do with it even if I am trying to do something groundbreaking. As we all know, bad singers are incapable of making good music.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:43
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Frackie Robinson posted:If the prequels aren't about institutional decay and failure, then all they're about is how awesome and cool Palpatine is. Make no mistake, Palpatine IS awesome and cool, but primarily he's an opportunist taking advantage of a galaxy that's been left ripe for the picking by its "guardians". If I may quote the CineD credo, "It's not subtext, it's just text." Palpatine owns, but his accomplishments are severely diminished because of how incompetent and downright creepy the Jedi are portrayed. No one is impressed with Shaq dunking on Vern Troyer. Also, since I saw someone talk about Obi-Wan and Yoda demanding Vader be killed, at no point in the OT theatrical cuts does that happen. In RotJ Yoda says Luke's destiny is, specifically, to confront Vader. Not kill, but confront. After Yoda dies, Obi-Wan's force ghost reiterates that Luke must FACE Vader, and Luke is the person who brings up that he may not be able to kill him, the first to even mention such a solution in the exchange. To that, Obi-Wan throws his hands up, shakes his head and says that the Empire has already won. Based on everything presented about the Force and Jedi in the OT, I'm pretty sure their word choices are intentional and Obi-Wan is frustrated that Luke's mind seems fixed on a lethal solution, instead of turning him back. He eventually learned the lesson, which is why those three ghosts get to hang at the Ewok party. A ton of pages back, someone else commented on this (forgot who), so I know I'm not the only one who heard it. Filthy Casual fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 23:45
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Frackie Robinson posted:As we all know, bad singers are incapable of making good music. This is a meaningless statement.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:46
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Dubplate Fire posted:Yea but there are movies that are worth trying harder for. The prequels are objectively bad movies with some pretty cool ideas, that doesn't make them good movies. I make music, if I do some cool stuff but it still sounds like poo poo, its a poo poo song. My intent has nothing to do with it even if I am trying to do something groundbreaking. It's not about intent, it's about people not liking it. Something can be good and disliked by a lot of people, or bad and liked. For a music example of the latter, look at Nickelback.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:46
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Lt. Danger posted:Sounds like you didn't try hard enough, my friend. There is no try.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:46
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computer parts posted:It's not about intent, it's about people not liking it. Something can be good and disliked by a lot of people, or bad and liked. This is more like saying Wesley Willis is good music, when in fact it is not, but it as least interesting.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:47
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Nickelback is a competent band, but they don't do anything interesting. George Lucas has interesting ideas, he cannot be a one man show.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:49
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Dubplate Fire posted:2 more movies... Even if it's part of a series, a movie should make sense on its own. If you want to reveal things in a sequel that portray the previous movie in new light that's fine, but it's kind of bad film making to raise big questions about character motivation if you're not ready to answer those questions yet. There are a lot of things Kylo Ren killing his father should leave us feeling, but the overwhelming sensation was "What has led him to a point that he feels he has to do this? When Han caresses his face as if to say 'I forgive you', what is he forgiving him for, besides the obvious?" There's not going to be any great reveal that compensates for how diminished that moment was by robbing it of context. General Dog fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 23:51
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computer parts posted:It's not about intent, it's about people not liking it. Something can be good and disliked by a lot of people, or bad and liked. Again, "good" and "bad" are meaningless here. The prequels can be thematically and compositionally interesting/compelling but disliked by a lot of people for perfectly valid reasons would be a better way of looking at it.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:52
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Phylodox posted:I think Kylo Ren is at least as interesting a character as Darth Vader was in A New Hope. Personally, I think he's leagues more interesting. And, while I won't argue with the movie's pace being a bit too brisk, I didn't find the climax tedious or any more of a retread than, say, the droid control ship plot in The Phantom Menace. In both cases, they're set up to reflect the original: Anakin's adventure is echoing his son's, while the Starkiller base section is about in-universe Star Wars fans being thrust into the stories they've been hearing since childhood. There's lots of interesting things going on in the movie. The difference is that we've had ten to fifteen years to stew over the prequels and sift through themes and imagery, while The Force Awakens is only a few weeks old, and still in theatres. Okay I'll agree I was a little harsh on Ren, he was an interesting spin on Anakin/Darth Vader, but I really think it was a mistake to save his motives for the sequel, we have no idea what went on between him and Luke and why he fell out with his family, it makes his patricide alot less meaningful when we don't know the reasons behind it. The new laser moon stuff was extremely half-hearted though, it wasn't shot with any flair or imagination and was destroyed by a character who was functionally dead for most of the film basically as an afterthought to the main conflict, which was clearly between Ren and Ray. I'll give you there might be more to pick up on on repeat viewings but some of the major creative decisions really work against it from the start Neurolimal posted:Because the former are worthy of consideration and acceptance, and the latter has some good ideas but are often actively hostile towards the common man and their opinions (which is amusing, considering their political opinions often gravitate towards leftism and populism). The common man isn't here being unfairly laughed at by SMG for not seeing the techno-sexual subtext in Jurrasic Park, neither is the unknown opinion of J. Smith from Slough a particularly interesting addition to an in-depth discussion of a film's sub/text. The point of these threads isn't to form a consensus with imagined, 'normal' people and you'd probably have far less of an issue with CineD if you didn't take offence any time someone posted their weird, personal opinion on a subject in a forum for sharing their weird, personal opinions on said subject
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Jan 8, 2016 23:53
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Filthy Casual posted:Palpatine owns, but his accomplishments are severely diminished because of how incompetent and downright creepy the Jedi are portrayed. No one is impressed with Shaq dunking on Vern Troyer. That's what I'm saying, that it's really a stretch to watch the prequels and think, "Lucas genuinely thinks he's portraying the Jedi as really cool and competent and good."
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Jan 8, 2016 23:53
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The common man/popular consensus is that the prequels are good, as reflected by sales and the frequency of holiday tv marathons and PT influence in subsequent films and so on. Only nerds argue otherwise.Vintersorg posted:Well from my point of view the Jedi are good. Yes, and evil will triumph because good is dumb. Phylodox posted:I think this thread would go a lot smoother if people stopped insisting that movies were "good" or "bad" and just restricted themselves to saying they liked or disliked them. That would be incredibly boring, like the film dump levels of boring.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:53
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Frackie Robinson posted:Even if it's part of a series, a movie should make sense on its own. If you want to reveal things in a sequel that portray the previous movie in new light that's fine, but it's kind of bad film making to raise big questions about character motivation if you're not ready to answer those questions yet. There are a lot of things Kylo Ren killing his father should leave us feeling, but the overwhelming sensation was "what has led him to a point that he feels he has to do this." There's not going to be any great reveal that compensates for how diminished that moment was by robbing it of context. I agree with you, it should make sense on its own, but it won't because it's Star Wars. That's the whole thing they need to nerds to speculate to keep this poo poo going.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:54
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Just send me back to 93 when my dad brought home x-wing for himself to play and i was like star wars is gay and then i played it and i was like this poo poo is cool.
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Jan 8, 2016 23:57
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Stop playing with your dad's lightsaber
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Jan 8, 2016 23:59
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Dubplate Fire posted:I agree with you, it should make sense on its own, but it won't because it's Star Wars. That's the whole thing they need to nerds to speculate to keep this poo poo going. This is the first Star Wars that feels like it's built to generate fan theories though. I guess it's hard to judge retroactively, but what were any open-ended mysteries that any of the prior movies have established? We didn't know who Luke's dad was in ANH, but we weren't led to believe it was important, and everything in the prequels unfolded fairly predictably. We always knew Palatine was the big bad. I guess the closest is Yoda's "there is another" aside in Empire, and that ended up being kind of a red herring. In any event, we always knew at least by the end of each movie what all of the characters wanted. Vader's motivations shifted, but you never left a movie feeling like he was holding something back from you.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:00
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turtlecrunch posted:Stop playing with your dad's lightsaber I had to beat the last level for him... chump.. he never played another videogame after that =/
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Jan 9, 2016 00:01
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Phylodox posted:I think this thread would go a lot smoother if people stopped insisting that movies were "good" or "bad" and just restricted themselves to saying they liked or disliked them. It's insanely egotistical to think that anyone gives a poo poo if you "liked" or "disliked" a film without actually talking about why.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:03
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Frackie Robinson posted:This is the first Star Wars that feels like it's built to generate fan theories though. I guess it's hard to judge retroactively, but what were any open-ended mysteries that any of the prior movies have established? We didn't know who Luke's dad was in ANH, but we weren't led to believe it was important, and everything in the prequels unfolded fairly predictably. We always knew Palatine was the big bad. I guess the closest is Yoda's "there is another" aside in Empire, and that ended up being kind of a red herring. In any event, we always knew at least by the end of each movie what all of the characters wanted. I didn't see Star Wars when they came out, and as far as I can remember I always knew that Darth Vader was Luke's father, so I have no idea what it was like but I assume that is what Disney is trying to recreate. I don't even care I just want dope space battles and when the X-Wing gets shot R2 makes that 'Weeeeeeeeeoooooooooooh' noise.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:03
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Also what the gently caress is up with r2d2 spraying oil everywhere and lighting those droids on fire. How come he lost that ability?
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Jan 9, 2016 00:04
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Dubplate Fire posted:Frankly I will never watch those movies again. The only reason I even liked Star Wars as a kid was because of X-Wing, TIE Fighter and Dark Forces. I didn't even see the movies until they came out on VHS, I didn't like the Force stuff so much. You wanna talk about disappointment bigger than the prequels tho, Rebel Assault... that poo poo sucked even more than Attack of the Clones. A small part of what makes me go "meh" with the prequels is just the All Jedi, All The Time thing. Everybody has a lightsaber, everyone has force powers, and every duel is a huge dick-swinging contest in jumps and flips. OT had Han Solo, who pretty much said "Eh, gently caress it." most of the time. PT had... Jar Jar? Panaka? Captain Eyepatch? Who's the 'regular' guy we can identify with? Who's the character that's mystified and awed by the Jedi, that gives us an idea of how the galaxy sees the powerful Jedi council/knights? Is it just Anakin, being passed over?
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Jan 9, 2016 00:05
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Red posted:A small part of what makes me go "meh" with the prequels is just the All Jedi, All The Time thing. Everybody has a lightsaber, everyone has force powers, and every duel is a huge dick-swinging contest in jumps and flips. Eh that's just what it is for me I guess... I just don't like the Jedi poo poo. I dig the training in ESB tho so i dunno. I liked that it was this mysterious poo poo that only this frog dude, cyborg samurai and old dead ghost know how to wield.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:07
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Frackie Robinson posted:That's what I'm saying, that it's really a stretch to watch the prequels and think, "Lucas genuinely thinks he's portraying the Jedi as really cool and competent and good." Having just watched the Anti-Cheese edits, I'm definitely moving away from the take that Lucas was doing a phoned in hack job the whole time. There's still a lot of good shots in there, and interesting ideas, but there's not a whole lot of meaningful relationships between the characters, at least in the way they interact with each other. The Jedi are largely dumb, arrogant and kinda creepy...I'm surprised it took Palpatine three movies to wreck their poo poo. Incidentally, after all those Dexter Jettster's diner debates, I walked away from that scene kinda liking it. It felt like the only time Obi-Wan established a genuine relationship with someone, but it was mostly that dude owing him a favor. It also had a nice hardboiled PI vibe to it. Also, when they crash land that warship bridge at the beginning of III, Obi-Wan's smarmy rear end "another happy landing" face is priceless.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:07
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Filthy Casual posted:Having just watched the Anti-Cheese edits, I'm definitely moving away from the take that Lucas was doing a phoned in hack job the whole time. There's still a lot of good shots in there, and interesting ideas, but there's not a whole lot of meaningful relationships between the characters, at least in the way they interact with each other. The Jedi are largely dumb, arrogant and kinda creepy...I'm surprised it took Palpatine three movies to wreck their poo poo. I wish he did a phoned in job.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:08
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Red posted:A small part of what makes me go "meh" with the prequels is just the All Jedi, All The Time thing. Everybody has a lightsaber, everyone has force powers, and every duel is a huge dick-swinging contest in jumps and flips. Not all movies need to have a Han Solo. Not all movies need to have an outsider figure. Fiction Is Not Lego Blocks.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:11
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