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WarpedNaba posted:We're currently at DEFCON Baldrick. Please tell me it involves a cunning plan.
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Jan 7, 2016 06:14
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Vagabundo posted:Yeah, I doubt that fat idiot is going to make the Mad Max universe a reality any time soon, mate. I expect at some point one of his butt-boy generals will put a round in his sconce out of simple self-preservation. I bet Kim is a pretty nervous guy these days. He knows he might wind up a shrimp on the barbie. He will ultimately fail for the same reason Stalin did- he has killed all his best men out of fear of usurpation. Except Beria, who likely poisoned him with Warfarin(a popular rat poison). ... And then comes the metric shitloads of sweet, sweet aid from a grateful planet, some of which can be raked off by the successors. Then maybe we can fix the place. But as in Stalinist Russia, whole generations have been ruined. It will not be a swift or simple process. Kim is a roadblock on the road to salvation for NK. Someone will see fit to remove it, I thinks. What an incredibly selfish person, my mind staggers to contemplate it. We should install a new Kim to run North Korea. Kim Kardashian, of course. She'd love it and her ratings would go through the roof. That rear end is already atomic. She can level cities with a twitch of those hips. That rear end was built by DARPA. What could possibly go wrong? zimboe fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 06:19
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CommieGIR posted:Please tell me it involves a cunning plan. Cunning? Planning? God lord sir, this is D&D! Nonono, we're at the stage where we try -with the utmost patience- to infer upon certain others that there are qualities that they may wish to try. Thinking for themselves, Advanced mathematics, possibly elementary dressmaking.
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Jan 7, 2016 06:20
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-Troika- posted:More likely some crazy idiot will sell a nuclear weapon to Hamas or Hezbollah or something and it'll get set off in Israel. And then the entire rest of the Middle East gets melted into slag by a vengeful Israel. Hamas is going to buy a nuke with all this money:
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Jan 7, 2016 07:32
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Not Hamas but hasn't ISIS made a good amount of bank selling oil? Them buying a Korean nuke miiiiight happen.
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Jan 7, 2016 13:44
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"oh man u guys ever play cod???? what if" - this thread
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Jan 7, 2016 13:46
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LeoMarr posted:Wouldn't North Korea's very large mineral deposits make up for this cost? In terms of total dollar value, maybe. But most of that value is still in the ground, and the infrastructure for getting it out is minimal. It'll take a lot of time to dig up enough hundreds of billions of dollars of minerals to make up for the money that'll already have been spent by then on feeding North Koreans. The economic effects are still significant, too - the dollar values may be the same, but the money spent on North Korea will overwhelmingly come from tax dollars while the money made by exploiting its resources will almost exclusively go to private industry. Halloween Jack posted:What is it about North Korea discussion that makes it a magnet for waterheads jerking off over retarded Tom Clancy scenarios? We get one of these each and every time a significant news story is released. We've propagandized them and Iran as being wild and crazy and insane and bloodthirsty, so Clancy fans can project the most ridiculous and irrational schemes onto them without worrying about little details like "that's totally suicidal", "they've spent the last fifty years saying they were going to do it so it's obviously right around tbe corner, any day now, really", and "why the hell would they do that, its a massive risk for basically zero benefit". Who better to accuse of having ridiculous nonsense plans than a government that the GOP says is made up entirely of totally crazy evil masterminds? People will believe anything when it comes to North Korea, which is why so many dumb rumors and conspiracy nonsense fly around about it, and the real context of North Korean actions and announcements often gets lost in the chorus of "ha ha they're so dumb and crazy".
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Jan 7, 2016 14:30
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Main Paineframe posted:We've propagandized them and Iran as being wild and crazy and insane and bloodthirsty, so Clancy fans can project the most ridiculous and irrational schemes onto them without worrying about little details like "that's totally suicidal", "they've spent the last fifty years saying they were going to do it so it's obviously right around tbe corner, any day now, really", and "why the hell would they do that, its a massive risk for basically zero benefit". Who better to accuse of having ridiculous nonsense plans than a government that the GOP says is made up entirely of totally crazy evil masterminds? People will believe anything when it comes to North Korea, which is why so many dumb rumors and conspiracy nonsense fly around about it, and the real context of North Korean actions and announcements often gets lost in the chorus of "ha ha they're so dumb and crazy". This seems right, but I'm still having trouble interpreting the reasons behind the most recent announcement. I mean the test itself I understand, but why announce it alongside such an obvious lie? Did they think the world would be fooled into believing the test yield was an order of magnitude greater than it was? Or was the thermonuke claim essentially just for domestic consumption?
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Jan 7, 2016 14:44
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It seems to have at least momentarily stumbled the US and Chinese stock markets, but I imagine there were other announcements they could have made to disrupt those markets that were easier and required less foresight.
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Jan 7, 2016 15:36
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Juffo-Wup posted:This seems right, but I'm still having trouble interpreting the reasons behind the most recent announcement. I mean the test itself I understand, but why announce it alongside such an obvious lie? Did they think the world would be fooled into believing the test yield was an order of magnitude greater than it was? Or was the thermonuke claim essentially just for domestic consumption? It's hard to know for sure, given that information about North Korea's internal situation is limited and often suspect. My best guess, for the H-bomb claim specifically, is that they've done enough nuclear tests that they feared "another nuclear test, just like the last one" wouldn't have the impact they desired, so they decided to spruce up their statement with claims of breakthroughs and a more powerful weapon. It's also possible that they attempted an H-bomb, it failed, but that they'd prefer to call attention to the fact that they had the technology to even attempt one (even though Western powers would be able to surmise that it likely wasn't successful) rather than hiding the failure and calling it a routine test the way the Soviets so often did. As for why they're doing it at all, who knows? We don't know what's going on there with much detail or reliability, so there's always the possibility of domestic jockeying for power and influence, or it could be that the harvests were poor and the government's laying the groundwork for demanding more food aid. It's also likely that the North is feeling ignored on the international stage lately, since the world's (and particularly the US's) attention has largely been on Iran, Syria, and ISIS in 2015, and US strategy toward North Korea in Obama's second term has mostly just been to apply sanctions and then ignore them unless they come begging for relief. In particular, the North seems frustrated that Washington refuses to acknowledge North Korea as a nuclear state, but the lack of significant diplomatic progress since 2012 also appears to be getting on their nerves. And you've gotta admit, with the end of Obama's term just a year away, it's one hell of a way to sound out US presidential candidates' policy toward North Korea, which has largely been absent from the election circus up till now.
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Jan 7, 2016 16:04
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zimboe posted:A dumb kid with nukes is even worse. Like a three-year-old with a .40 cal Glock. A dumb kid with nukes which barely work and can't leave his territory is a threat to noone but his own people. TheLovablePlutonis posted:Not Hamas but hasn't ISIS made a good amount of bank selling oil? Them buying a Korean nuke miiiiight happen. Again though, the Korean weapons by all accounts are useless for anything but blowing them up on their own territory. ISIS doesn't have much use for a nuclear bomb that requires a special heavy duty truck or heavy bomber to transport it.
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Jan 7, 2016 16:06
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Vox told me the NK is actually a hold out of Japanese fascism. Thoughts?
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Jan 7, 2016 21:47
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Their racial purity and emperor veneration schlemiel bears a very strong parallel with the crap the IJA trotted out after the Korean annexation. Otherwise it's just garden-variety fascism.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:49
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sparatuvs posted:Vox told me the NK is actually a hold out of Japanese fascism. Thoughts? His thesis is that when the Japanese occupied Korea, while they brutally oppressed most of the populace, they essentially invited the middle/upper classes to participate in their cult of racial purity. When Kim took over the North, he essentially crafted his state ideology in the same format, but with Korea and Koreans as the center of the universe instead of the Japanese. The Kim Il Sung personality cult, on the other hand, is an imitation of Mao's. Plus, like WarpedNaba said, standard fascism with constant aggression and an ideal of "final victory."
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Jan 7, 2016 22:24
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Halloween Jack posted:You might enjoy BR Myers' presentation on Kim's personality cult (video). Thank you for the BR Myers video, I have begun watching it now. I had been wanting to see something a bit more academic on North Korea rather than the typical NatGeo video.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:33
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Dapper_Swindler posted:pretty much. some terrorists or maybe even an actual country is going to fire a nuke off into a city. i could totally see North Korea blowing up Seoul with a nuke if they could get the delivery system right. Nevermind launching, it's 54 Kilometers from Kaesong to Seoul. Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter?
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Jan 8, 2016 01:57
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Arbite posted:Nevermind launching, it's 54 Kilometers from Kaesong to Seoul. Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter? They've been repeatedly caught attempting just such a thing. So, what stops them is the South Korean military.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:00
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Arbite posted:Nevermind launching, it's 54 Kilometers from Kaesong to Seoul. Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggression
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Jan 8, 2016 02:00
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Arbite posted:Nevermind launching, it's 54 Kilometers from Kaesong to Seoul. Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter? Digging a 54 kilometer long tunnel is a lot easier said than done. Also a lot of people undersell the fact the SK military really doesn't gently caress around when the North tries to pull poo poo like that.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:03
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Arbite posted:Nevermind launching, it's 54 Kilometers from Kaesong to Seoul. Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter? I'm going to guess it would be the absolute best possible scenario for nuking a metropolis... for the people who live in the metropolis. The primary reason nukes have often been tested underground is to reduce the impact on the surface. You probably wouldn't want to be living in the city block or two directly above the blast, but the majority of the explosive force would go into creating a moderate earthquake and being underground would help contain much of the fallout and radiation. Not that North Korea is capable of doing it the first place. Sneaking a mile or so under the DMZ is one thing. Building a 50+ KM tunnel hundreds of feet underground without detection is quite another. That would be a big undertaking and, looking at wikipedia, make it into the top 20 or so of the world's longest tunnels.
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Jan 8, 2016 02:25
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Bluedeanie posted:It seems to have at least momentarily stumbled the US and Chinese stock markets, but I imagine there were other announcements they could have made to disrupt those markets that were easier and required less foresight. This was due to projections of a decelerating Chinese manufacturing sector, not ~nork nukes~
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Jan 8, 2016 02:56
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Venom Snake posted:Digging a 54 kilometer long tunnel is a lot easier said than done. Also a lot of people undersell the fact the SK military really doesn't gently caress around when the North tries to pull poo poo like that. Keep in mind that the Chunnel linking the UK and France is just over 50 km long, and that took a good 6 years to dig with construction from either side with far more resources devoted to it in a month than NK can probably muster up in 10 years, even taking into account that the thing is underwater. The North Koreans can't even build a loving hotel right, let alone an underground tunnel into South Korea
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Jan 8, 2016 03:41
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Vagabundo posted:Keep in mind that the Chunnel linking the UK and France is just over 50 km long, and that took a good 6 years to dig with construction from either side with far more resources devoted to it in a month than NK can probably muster up in 10 years, even taking into account that the thing is underwater. Tunnels probably aren't an issue any more, but I don't think it's because NK is incapable of building them. The Vietnamese built over a hundred miles of tunnels mostly by hand, and multiple tunnels from NK have already been discovered, some only with help from defectors. There are probably undiscovered tunnels which don't matter any more since NK is focusing on the missile thing anyway. edit: I get that the geology of Vietnam is particularly suitable to tunnel building but I don't think the chunnel is a good comparison either. Hammy fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 17:28
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Hammy posted:Tunnels probably aren't an issue any more, but I don't think it's because NK is incapable of building them. The Vietnamese built over a hundred miles of tunnels mostly by hand, and multiple tunnels from NK have already been discovered, some only with help from defectors. There are probably undiscovered tunnels which don't matter any more since NK is focusing on the missile thing anyway. The reason many of the tunnels needed defector info, was that they hadn't gone very far at all into South Korea, let alone getting to shouting range of Seoul. The closer things get to actually being under the city or the northern suburbs, the more the tunnelers risk busting up underground infrastructure and drawing attention.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:05
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Hammy posted:edit: I get that the geology of Vietnam is particularly suitable to tunnel building but I don't think the chunnel is a good comparison either.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:27
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fishmech posted:The reason many of the tunnels needed defector info, was that they hadn't gone very far at all into South Korea, let alone getting to shouting range of Seoul. The closer things get to actually being under the city or the northern suburbs, the more the tunnelers risk busting up underground infrastructure and drawing attention. You don't need to tunnels to go all the way to Seoul to enter the country though. Several groups of north Korean special forces attacked Seoul by just boating up to the coast .
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Jan 8, 2016 20:28
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Uncle Jam posted:You don't need to tunnels to go all the way to Seoul to enter the country though. Several groups of north Korean special forces attacked Seoul by just boating up to the coast . Please read the thread. The original post that started this line of discussion was " Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter?" You need to get under Seoul with your tunnel, in order to place and detonate a bomb under Seoul in a tunnel.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:31
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fishmech posted:Please read the thread. The original post that started this line of discussion was " Logistically speaking, what is stopping NK from spending a few years digging a tunnel underneath Seoul? What would the effects of an underground explosion on such a metropolis be, for that matter?" That isn't the post I quoted. We are talking about the real tunnels that actually exist, and they exist for reasons other than digging under Seoul and blowing a bomb up. Discussions aren't fixed and can ebb and flow as time passes, much like your mum's fat rolls as she walks.
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Jan 9, 2016 02:50
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Uncle Jam posted:That isn't the post I quoted. We are talking about the real tunnels that actually exist, and they exist for reasons other than digging under Seoul and blowing a bomb up. The "invasion" tunnels also need to go significantly beyond the DMZ to be at all useful, and also are problematic to get to that point because they'll start interfering with real underground infrastructure much sooner. You really are bad at comprehending things aren't you? Must be why you think everyone has your mom.
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Jan 9, 2016 02:52
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Couldn't the invasion tunnels be perfectly effective as long as they just bypass the DMZ itself? It would help if they could just go under miles of mines, fencing, antitank barricades etc
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Jan 9, 2016 03:09
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Logikv9 posted:Couldn't the invasion tunnels be perfectly effective as long as they just bypass the DMZ itself? It would help if they could just go under miles of mines, fencing, antitank barricades etc No, because there's a whole bunch of natural and manmade obstacles set up beyond the DMZ proper, the manmade ones specifically designed around "what if the DPRK manages to build themselves an invasion route through the DMZ".
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Jan 9, 2016 03:14
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Logikv9 posted:Couldn't the invasion tunnels be perfectly effective as long as they just bypass the DMZ itself? It would help if they could just go under miles of mines, fencing, antitank barricades etc Assuming the tunnels haven't been located so you emerge into an ambush, aren't quickly located when you open them on the other end resulting in encirclement with no line of retreat or reinforcement, and you don't get a JDAM through the entrance half an hour later. Sure?
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Jan 9, 2016 03:14
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We can always flood our end with boiled porridge.
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Jan 9, 2016 03:54
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Guys, I have a plan for North Korea to sneak through the DMZ. First, they need some hot air balloons and those arrows with suction cups on the end...
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Jan 9, 2016 05:30
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What the gently caress good would it be to bypass tank barriers? Unless you're thinking that they're gonna drive tank columns through miles of underground tunnels? Is that honestly the idea we're entertaining here? I don't think even Clancy would write something so idiotic. Edit: I mean, I can maybe imagine inserting engineers or saboteurs or something through a series of infiltration tunnels, but you clowns are talking about launching a full scale underground invasion against the combined forces of the US and S. Korea. What the gently caress. Juffo-Wup fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 02:21
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Juffo-Wup posted:What the gently caress good would it be to bypass tank barriers? Unless you're thinking that they're gonna drive tank columns through miles of underground tunnels? Is that honestly the idea we're entertaining here? I don't think even Clancy would write something so idiotic. Hovertanks.
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Jan 10, 2016 02:22
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Juffo-Wup posted:What the gently caress good would it be to bypass tank barriers? Unless you're thinking that they're gonna drive tank columns through miles of underground tunnels? Is that honestly the idea we're entertaining here? I don't think even Clancy would write something so idiotic. Congrats, you've cracked why North Korean dmz tunnels can never be non useless.
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Jan 10, 2016 02:27
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Secret hypertunnels funded directly by the Iranian Ayatollahs and separatist Russians with suitcase nuclear weapons.
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Jan 10, 2016 02:39
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Logikv9 posted:Secret hypertunnels funded directly by the Iranian Ayatollahs and separatist Russians with suitcase nuclear weapons. They are digging tunnels with nuclear weapons. It all makes sense now.
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Jan 10, 2016 02:56
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fishmech posted:Congrats, you've cracked why North Korean dmz tunnels can never be non useless. Why not drill our own tunnels to Pyongyang? Surely with our technological lead we could get there undetectable to the North Koreans. CommieGIR posted:They are digging tunnels with nuclear weapons. It all makes sens now. We cannot allow the North Koreans a lead in the plowshare gap!
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Jan 10, 2016 02:57
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