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Something no one has yet addressed in regards to what was or wasn't intentional in these movies - the score. John Williams's score is fantastic, as we all know. George Lucas has said at times that the films are edited to go along with the score, generally not the other way around. Many times we feel a certain way or think we are being told to feel a certain way because of the music. The music frequently tells us that the Jedi, the Republic, and the Rebellion are good, and that the Sith and the Empire are evil. The theme "Across the Stars" is the love theme for Anakin and Padme. It is a very well made piece of music, and it tells us that this is an epic romance, the most epic romance that ever romanced. The actual dialogue does not live up to that. If it's meant to be a quirky little dorkfest between two teenagers (Padme is 24 btw) it does not come across that way, largely because of the music. Is the music lying? Is it all part of the sarcasm? If so, is John Williams "in on it?" This narrative that the romance is just two teenagers screwing around and bumbling their way through it does not make any sense. The primary reason that it's not believable is that it starts out with Padme telling Anakin "please don't look at me like that, it makes me feel uncomfortable," and lines like "I don't think she liked me watching her." Did she just get really horny all of a sudden, so much that she doesn't find him to be a creep anymore?
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Jan 9, 2016 21:18
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Across the Stars actually says a lot about what's wrong with their relationship. It's the Star Wars theme but sadder, slower- there's something tragic about it. It's a deliberate inversion of the triumphant main theme, just as the celebration music from the end of TPM is a "happy" version of the Emperor's Theme. Williams knew what he was doing. EDIT: Especially the elongated version for the end titles- the way it finally fades out is extremely ominous. https://youtu.be/VVC92ZKowWc?list=PLC7AB4C435935E35B
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Jan 9, 2016 21:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Gifs are often used misleadingly - like in the infamous 'twirling lightsabers' meme, that cuts out the context from before and after that fraction of a second, where it is very obvious that the characters are preparing to strike. The wierdest thing about some of those prequel cg heavy shots is they didnt build the floor either so shadows look super mega weird, not every set or shot but some of them. The geonosis set they did though. I think one of the worst looking bits f those first 3 movies is actually the entire Vader transformation scene, everything looks off somehow watching it again recently.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:25
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95% of the Special Edition changes are fine, if largely unnecessary, like adding more rocks in front of R2D2. But the other 5% range from distracting to just plain awful. Restoring the deleted Han/Jabba scene in ANH served no purpose other than showing off how they could manipulate the footage (aside from also being redundant and poorly done). The new musical number in ROTJ makes a point of LITERALLY shoving CGI in the viewer's face, and most of the additions on Tatooine in ANH don't fare much better. ESB is pretty much fine. I was actually impressed with this stuff when the Special Editions first came out, but the novelty wore off quickly. Then the addition of Darth Vader yelling "Noooooo" at the end of ROTJ in the bluray version, while not objectively a huge deal, just felt like such a big "screw you" move to people who don't like the PT.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:30
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The comparison to video games by PT haters always comes up because some of them would prefer a universe to immerse with over witnessing someone tell a story. It's ok to prefer games to movies, or to enjoy both, but games are nowhere near as visually good as films. Maybe one day.Tots posted:Is there a goon hive mind agreed upon watch order for the movies? 123-123-123 and then you go into the bathroom and look at the mirror and stare yourself in the eye and say "Star wars fans just don't like Star Wars" and then you become more powerful than you can possibly imagine Raphisonfire posted:I saw the force awakens last night, however what I am curious to know is... How did Rey become so proficient in using the force in the film? Especially when compared to Luke or Anakin who both endured some kind of formal training in it? She's a wizard in space. Plus her earlier scenes on jakku show she has been waiting (training?) for this moment her whole life! Soggy Cereal posted:Something no one has yet addressed in regards to what was or wasn't intentional in these movies - the score. John Williams's score is fantastic, as we all know. George Lucas has said at times that the films are edited to go along with the score, generally not the other way around. That's a good observation. Sure, the music lied sand people died. Or maybe love between two doomed fools is still a beautiful thing. Or both
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Jan 9, 2016 21:34
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Sir Lemming posted:95% of the Special Edition changes are fine, if largely unnecessary, like adding more rocks in front of R2D2. But the other 5% range from distracting to just plain awful. Restoring the deleted Han/Jabba scene in ANH served no purpose other than showing off how they could manipulate the footage (aside from also being redundant and poorly done). The new musical number in ROTJ makes a point of LITERALLY shoving CGI in the viewer's face, and most of the additions on Tatooine in ANH don't fare much better. ESB is pretty much fine. I like the wampa bit, but wish they went further and put in c3p0 flipping the sign to the wampa room back in.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Gifs are often used misleadingly - like in the infamous 'twirling lightsabers' meme, that cuts out the context from before and after that fraction of a second, where it is very obvious that the characters are preparing to strike. There's like 900 robots in that scene, do you think they were told they're supposed to be blocking shots from 900 robots in all directions? Because I think they should probably be waggling their sticks a little bit faster. Also one of those roly poly robots in the bottom left scared the poo poo out of Liam Neeson in Ep1, but no one is even paying attention to it here. Almost as if it isn't there at all.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:35
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Soggy Cereal posted:Is the music lying? Is it all part of the sarcasm? If so, is John Williams "in on it?" Just as an aside, there seems to be this prevalent fear that there's a conspiracy where we're being tricked or, at the opposite extreme, a fear that there is no conspiracy and therefore Lucas is incompetent at creating a conspiracy. This leads to people getting really caught up in "what am I supposed to think? What am I supposed to feel?" This feeling of uncertainty is terrifying to many, which is why we see so many odd reactions. But with the music, the point is quite simple. It's as Zizek observed in Chaplin's The Great Dictator: "[Chaplin's tramp character] delivers his big speech about the need for love, understanding between people. But there is a catch, even a double catch. 'Soldiers, in the name of democracy, let us all unite!' People applaud exactly in the same way as they were applauding Hitler. The music that accompanies this great humanist finale, the overture to Wagner’s opera Lohengrin, is the same music as the one we hear when Hitler is daydreaming about conquering the entire world and where he has a balloon in the shape of the globe. The music is the same. This can be read as the ultimate redemption of music - that the same music which served evil purposes can be redeemed to serve the good. Or it can be read - and I think it should be read - in a much more ambiguous way: that, with music, we cannot ever be sure. Insofar as it externalizes our inner passion, music is potentially always a threat." -Zizek You don't need to know John Williams' (or Chaplin's) intentions to understand that the music is both powerful and amoral - it can 'augment' any scene. Williams' music is like a manifestation of the all-pervasive 'dark side' that clouds the characters' senses. Squinty posted:There's like 900 robots in that scene, do you think they were told they're supposed to be blocking shots from 900 robots in all directions? Yes, of course they were. This whole sequence would have been heavily storyboarded. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 21:36
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Squinty posted:There's like 900 robots in that scene, do you think they were told they're supposed to be blocking shots from 900 robots in all directions? Because I think they should probably be waggling their sticks a little bit faster. Also one of those roly poly robots in the bottom left scared the poo poo out of Liam Neeson in Ep1, but no one is even paying attention to it here. Almost as if it isn't there at all. At this point the battle is winding down because Dooku wants to give them one last ultimatum. Plus too many blasts and deflections and the scene becomes harder to read.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:38
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Maxwell Lord posted:Across the Stars actually says a lot about what's wrong with their relationship. It's the Star Wars theme but sadder, slower- there's something tragic about it. It's a deliberate inversion of the triumphant main theme, just as the celebration music from the end of TPM is a "happy" version of the Emperor's Theme. Williams knew what he was doing. Yeah, this is a large part of why I think Lucas meant Anakin and Padme's romance to be earnest and tragic, rather than awkward and forced. Divorced from any context, Across the Stars is a beautiful, heartbreaking piece of music. Just like Battle of the Heroes calls to mind an equally tragic heroism that, in my opinion, is absent from Anakin and Obi-Wan's final battle.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:41
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Black Bones posted:That's a good observation. Sure, the music lied sand people died. Or maybe love between two doomed fools is still a beautiful thing. Or both This actually ties in to one of my increasing pet peeves when people talk about Romeo & Juliet. Yes, as people are now fond of pointing out, Romeo and Juliet are both stupid teenagers in love and doing lots of dumb things- but that doesn't mean the tragedy is them being dumb, it's the adults being dumb because they're still waging a pointless war on each other that's getting their children killed. As naive and misguided as their love may be, it does end a war.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yes, of course they were. This whole sequence would have been heavily storyboarded. Then shouldn't they be waving their swords around at 1000 mph to deflect the constant barrage of random lasers coming from all directions? They wouldn't last 5 seconds in a game of squash. Their actions don't match the environment.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:49
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Jack Gladney posted:Does anyone defend the special editions over the originals? The only things the blu-ray cuts of the originals do specifically worse than the theatrical cuts is the extremely redundant Jabba scene in A New Hope. And even that's only bad because the dialog is 80% identical. Squinty posted:Then shouldn't they be waving their swords around at 1000 mph to deflect the constant barrage of random lasers coming from all directions? They wouldn't last 5 seconds in a game of squash. Their actions don't match the environment. Yeah it's pretty tactically unrealistic.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:This actually ties in to one of my increasing pet peeves when people talk about Romeo & Juliet. Yes, as people are now fond of pointing out, Romeo and Juliet are both stupid teenagers in love and doing lots of dumb things- but that doesn't mean the tragedy is them being dumb, it's the adults being dumb because they're still waging a pointless war on each other that's getting their children killed. As naive and misguided as their love may be, it does end a war. Yeah, and I like Padme and Anakin as characters. They both try so hard, and are so hosed, it's kinda adorable
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Jan 9, 2016 21:52
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, this is a large part of why I think Lucas meant Anakin and Padme's romance to be earnest and tragic, rather than awkward and forced. Divorced from any context, Across the Stars is a beautiful, heartbreaking piece of music. Just like Battle of the Heroes calls to mind an equally tragic heroism that, in my opinion, is absent from Anakin and Obi-Wan's final battle. But like R&J it's kinda both. They're a couple of dumb awkward kids confusing hormones for True Wuv, but at the same time the problem is the Republic and the Jedi Order not letting them fool around and make mistakes and be dumb awkward kids.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:53
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Dubplate Fire posted:What are you talking about? You are clearly trolling. The 90s CGI looks so out of place in those movies. There is a lot of great clean up and additions done. Cgi dinosaurs don't phase me. The recent Godzilla is one of my most favorite movies.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:58
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Squinty posted:Then shouldn't they be waving their swords around at 1000 mph to deflect the constant barrage of random lasers coming from all directions? They wouldn't last 5 seconds in a game of squash. Their actions don't match the environment. Why would the robots fire full auto when they have the jedi encircled? That's the sort of bad tactics people got mad at in Starship Troopers. Not only that, but the Jedi can reflect bullets - and you're proposing that they should shoot more bullets toward the jedi. This is why you're not in charge of the droid army. Also it's a children's movie about psychic space cops.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:00
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Cop from the future... Cop from space... The future of space...
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Jan 9, 2016 22:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Just as an aside, there seems to be this prevalent fear that there's a conspiracy where we're being tricked or, at the opposite extreme, a fear that there is no conspiracy and therefore Lucas is incompetent at creating a conspiracy. This leads to people getting really caught up in "what am I supposed to think? What am I supposed to feel?" This feeling of uncertainty is terrifying to many, which is why we see so many odd reactions. I'm not worried about being tricked. I'm trying in good faith to understand what the "correct" interpretation of the movie is. I could talk about how I actually felt watching it but that would be redundant. edit: You saying it's a children's movie is actually what I wanted to talk about. If a child watches this and comes to the conclusion that the Jedi are really cool and are good guys, what do you tell them?
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Jan 9, 2016 22:09
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Maxwell Lord posted:But like R&J it's kinda both. They're a couple of dumb awkward kids confusing hormones for True Wuv, but at the same time the problem is the Republic and the Jedi Order not letting them fool around and make mistakes and be dumb awkward kids. I think this is just one of those things people aren't going to agree on. Some people read the awkwardness in Attack of the Clones as intentional and endearing. To others, even assuming Lucas was attempting to convey young love, it rings false. Beyond a certain point they're older, married, and expecting a child, but the tone of their relationship doesn't reflect that. They still come off as stilted and unnatural. At no point does their love feel real or natural enough for me to get invested in the tragedy of their fate.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:10
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Soggy Cereal posted:I'm not worried about being tricked. I'm trying in good faith to understand what the "correct" interpretation of the movie is. I could talk about how I actually felt watching it but that would be redundant. An interpretation of a work of art can be incorrect, but it cannot be correct.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:10
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Soggy Cereal posted:I'm not worried about being tricked. I'm trying in good faith to understand what the "correct" interpretation of the movie is. I could talk about how I actually felt watching it but that would be redundant. Don't worry too much about that either. It's up to you to decide what arguments make the most sense, use evidence from the films, etc. I don't necessarily 100% agree with anyone else, but their ideas can enhance my own reading and enjoyment. Lucas* is never gonna go "it's this one, here's your true fan card, everyone else eat poodoo" I would tell this child the jedi are trying to be good guys, but ask them what does a good guy do about slavery? *or whatever authority nerds care about. Dawkins? Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 22:18
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Kids loooove Anakin and he gets that the Jedi are clowns.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:20
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euphronius posted:There is a lot of great clean up and additions done. Cgi dinosaurs don't phase me. The recent Godzilla is one of my most favorite movies. Awesome! I wish it didn't bother me as much as it does. Noticeable cgi ruins it for me
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Jan 9, 2016 22:32
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bruvs be4 luvs
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Soggy Cereal posted:I'm not worried about being tricked. I'm trying in good faith to understand what the "correct" interpretation of the movie is. I could talk about how I actually felt watching it but that would be redundant. Well that's what I mean, though: this "what am i supposed to feel?" You're not 'supposed to' feel anything, with any movie. You are free to feel whatever you like, and therefore you have a terrifying responsibility to write truthfully and accurately. The problem comes when people try to escape from freedom, trying to escape the burden of actually forming an opinion - while still expecting all the rewards. These are weaselly tactics, like when a truther says "I'm just asking questions" or when a creationist says "teach the controversy". When called out on things that are patently false, there's a retreat into "it's just my opinion" - "I don't actually believe what I say. I have no conviction. My words are weak and harmless so, if you confront me in any way, you're a bully." I don't mean to harsh on you here, but this "what will the children think?" is a similar escape from the truth. It skips the actual difficult question of "what do I think?", displacing that burden onto innocent children.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Why would the robots fire full auto when they have the jedi encircled? That's the sort of bad tactics people got mad at in Starship Troopers. Not only that, but the Jedi can reflect bullets - and you're proposing that they should shoot more bullets toward the jedi. The robots still shoot at the jedi, but only a little bit to make sure there's enough bullets around for them to bounce back but not so many that they might actually hit a jedi.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:43
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Phylodox posted:Beyond a certain point they're older, married, and expecting a child, but the tone of their relationship doesn't reflect that. They still come off as stilted and unnatural. At no point does their love feel real or natural enough for me to get invested in the tragedy of their fate. I've always thought the "Ani, I'm pregnant" scene, at least, was one of the best in the whole saga. It's a really great portrayal of two young people in way over their heads. You can tell that both Anakin and Padmé are loving terrified of what a pregnancy means, but Anakin does the right thing and finally decides what's important to him. It's just a tender moment that Hayden and Natalie play marvelously. Squinty posted:The robots still shoot at the jedi, but only a little bit to make sure there's enough bullets around for them to bounce back but not so many that they might actually hit a jedi. It's done this way so that people can actually see everything that's going on and make sense of the action. This is one of George Lucas's greatest skills.
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Jan 9, 2016 22:43
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Dubplate Fire posted:Awesome! I wish it didn't bother me as much as it does. Noticeable cgi ruins it for me Honest question, do noticeable puppets or stop motion creatures also ruin it for you? Prolonged Panorama fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 9, 2016 |
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Jan 9, 2016 22:56
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Honest question, do noticeable puppets or stop motion creatures also ruin it for you? Your question isn't directed to me, but: Anything that removes the suspension of disbelief hurts the film-watching experience.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:09
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Red posted:Your question isn't directed to me, but: Anything that removes the suspension of disbelief hurts the film-watching experience. Suspend your disbelief from something sturdier, then.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:13
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Stop motion and mattes signal a film's historical context--they're marks of it being from a certain time and place. When that context is different from ours, it informs the way we receive the film. I don't like the cg additions because they move Star Wars from 1977 to 1997, and a huge component of my enjoyment of Star Wars is it's 1970s-ness and historical context. Although I also kind of hate Star Wars for what it caused and encouraged in filmmaking.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:18
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Like, if some cruddy CGI ruins your ability to, temporarily, believe in a movie, I feel deeply deeply sorry for you and all of the good movies and tv shows that you are unable to enjoy.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:21
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Red posted:Your question isn't directed to me, but: Anything that removes the suspension of disbelief hurts the film-watching experience. I enjoyed the HFR Hobbit more because it felt more like a stage play than "realistic".
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Jan 9, 2016 23:31
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computer parts posted:I enjoyed the HFR Hobbit more because it felt more like a stage play than "realistic". I didn't enjoy it at all because it felt like a stage play and not like a movie.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:33
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Like, the prequels have problems, lots of them, but the CGI itself isn't really a problem, their are problems with the way it's used, especially in AotC. I think a lot of times people blame things like "CGI" because it's an obvious thing, and figuring out what is really wrong with something can be loving hard.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:36
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Why would children have a hard time seeing the Jedi as less-than-perfect? Obi-Wan Kenobi: I have a bad feeling about this. Qui-Gon Jinn: I don't sense anything. Kenobi: It's not about the mission, Master. It's something... elsewhere. Elusive. Qui-Gon: Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs. Kenobi: But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future. Qui-Gon: But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan. Kenobi: Yes, Master. How do you think this Trade Viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands? Qui-Gon: These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short. Obi-wan worries (rightly) about a looming threat. Qui-gon tells him, in essence, to shut up, because he doesn't feel like anything's wrong and he's the Master so he's right. He should be much more focused on sensing the fear and apprehension of these cowardly Neimodians.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:37
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Because children believe what you tell them and don't second guess or examine that information. So when they are told that Jedi are awesome, they believe that Jedi are awesome.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:44
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NecroMonster posted:Like, the prequels have problems, lots of them, but the CGI itself isn't really a problem, their are problems with the way it's used, especially in AotC. I know it's hard to follow all the conversations in this thread, but I believe this comment... Dubplate Fire posted:Awesome! I wish it didn't bother me as much as it does. Noticeable cgi ruins it for me CGI vs. practical effects is a whole other can of worms, but that's not really what we're talking about, we're talking about a few scenes of 1997 aesthetic spliced into a movie with an overall 1977 aesthetic. I suppose the idea of a movie that continually evolves with more changes every time it's released is not inherently bad, but surely it's understandable that a lot of people would rather watch the movie they actually grew up loving. Nostalgia isn't everything, but I think it is worth something. Otherwise we should just never watch old movies again after a certain point.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:46
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computer parts posted:I enjoyed the HFR Hobbit more because it felt more like a stage play than "realistic". The only Hobbit anyone should be enjoying was made by Rakin Bass.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:50
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The Jedi in the prequels are still awesome. They're not incompetent, they're just flawed and brought down by their own dogma and hubris. Not cause they're dumb or evil. Sometimes a wise person can miss the obvious.
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Jan 9, 2016 23:52
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