|
Oh. I dunno.
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 04:52 |
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:*EDIT: I figure I am going to be owned by some EU thing where they explain that her species can actually do this The one major Clawdite I can think of still needs makeup and physical prosthetics to completely mimic any ol' person, but he could manipulate his facial features to help out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:16
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:heh, nothing, I just thought it would be funny to point out. I mean, you can come up with a million reasons why she didn't change shape, none of which are pointed out in the movie. And Chekhov's Gun isn't just about "If there's a gun, it needs to be successfully used to kill someone". It means that everything needs to serve some purpose. In your example, a character noticing a villain has a gun might serve to illustrate his powers of observation or to heighten the tension in a scene. In the bar scene in Attack of the Clones, Zam's shape-shifting abilities are kind of implied to be causing tension...but not really, since the characters don't have a good idea what she looks like to begin with. Her being a changeling isn't really the source of tension, Obi-Wan and Anakin not knowing what she looks like is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:22
|
|
|
This Zam thing is a good example of the confusing nature of the prequel dialogue. Something I've noticed lately is that a lot of the dialogue is not bad necessarily, it's just incomprehensible. "I think he's a she, and I think she's a changeling." Is the audience supposed to know what a changeling is? It makes it confusing, because, like others have said, she never actually uses that ability. Without catching the brief glimpses of her true form in the speeder chase, it's easy to assume that the toxic dart is what turns her into a weird scary mutant. It still is in a way. Also what she says when slain. It took me years to figure out it's "I shouldn't say more" or "We shouldn't say more." not "Ooshoodit slaymlorr" or something. A lot of Jar Jar/Boss Nass dialogue is like this. I understand the stylistic choice of a weird minstrel Caribbean thing or whatever, but some of it is literally impossible to understand on first viewing, even with subtitles. "You would say boontyasr, then crashing the boss's heyblibber, then banished." This is the backstory we get of Jar Jar, the protagonist. Actual gibberish. Why didn't they just use bongo, the word that was introduced in the last scene for a vehicle? "Dis army of meckaneeks up there is you, we saw." What is Nass saying? That the Jedi are with the Trade Federation? That the Naboo are with the Trade Federation? "Heesum to be pyooneeshed." Punished? Or killed? I would actually argue that this stuff is more offputting to kids than the political dialogue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:22
|
|
|
When the Jedi are in the watercraft with Jar Jar one of them says something about the Force and Jar Jar says "ohhh maxi bid da Force". Since I'm sure this thread knows someone tell me what he's actually saying. e: Also how could Anakin have an apprentice when he is the apprentice turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jan 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:25
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:It means that everything needs to serve some purpose. Well I think it's more: if you draw attention to something intriguing, then it should serve some purpose. I think the shape changing thing is hinted at to trick the audience into thinking there is going to be some antics in that vein, but then the movie subverts it. You then see that, yes, she was a changeling of some sort, but at that point like Cnut said it becomes a thematic thing and not a plot point.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
turtlecrunch posted:When the Jedi are in the watercraft with Jar Jar one of them says something about the Force and Jar Jar says "ohhh maxi bid da Force". Since I'm sure this thread knows someone tell me what he's actually saying. The lines in question: quote:QUI-GON : Just relax, the Force will Basically "I think you're just full of poo poo". Also, when looking at that I see the "pathetic lifeform" quip from Obi-Wan showed up earlier than Tatooine: quote:OBI-WAN : Master, why do you keep dragging these pathetic life forms along
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
Soggy Cereal posted:Also what she says when slain. It took me years to figure out it's "I shouldn't say more" or "We shouldn't say more." not "Ooshoodit slaymlorr" or something. She's saying "bounty hunter scumball" in huttese. "Murishani Sleemo"
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:38
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:Well I think it's more: if you draw attention to something intriguing, then it should serve some purpose. I think the shape changing thing is hinted at to trick the audience into thinking there is going to be some antics in that vein, but then the movie subverts it. You then see that, yes, she was a changeling of some sort, but at that point like Cnut said it becomes a thematic thing and not a plot point. It doesn't really subvert it in any meaningful way. We, the audience, are never led to believe that Zam could be anyone in the club. We're shown right away that she looks like...herself. And it doesn't really serve a thematic purpose. Like I said, both of Cnut's ideas are served by her being a woman and her dying an ugly death, neither of which have anything to do with her being a shape-shifter. Some people are saying that it highlights the nature of the conflict, of not knowing who your enemy is, that they could be anyone...except that she's never used that way. That would have been a fantastic way to use her, to highlight the paranoia and fear that comes from never knowing who your real foe is. It would have served the themes of the movie and the trilogy quite well. Unfortunately, other than saying "she is a shape-shifter", she's never used that way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:45
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:It doesn't really subvert it in any meaningful way. We, the audience, are never led to believe that Zam could be anyone in the club. We're shown right away that she looks like...herself. And it doesn't really serve a thematic purpose. Like I said, both of Cnut's ideas are served by her being a woman and her dying an ugly death, neither of which have anything to do with her being a shape-shifter. Some people are saying that it highlights the nature of the conflict, of not knowing who your enemy is, that they could be anyone...except that she's never used that way. That would have been a fantastic way to use her, to highlight the paranoia and fear that comes from never knowing who your real foe is. It would have served the themes of the movie and the trilogy quite well. Unfortunately, other than saying "she is a shape-shifter", she's never used that way. In addition to the theme of not knowing who your enemy is there's the connected theme of the enemy hiding in plain sight- like how Palpatine is pulling the strings right under the noses of the Jedi Council and Senate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:50
|
|
|
I know this was only complimentary to his personal reading, but "death dealing, percieved as a masculine profession"...assassins tend to be female more than male in western culture (primarily influenced by the prevalence of anti-russian sentiment during the 80's, which had a large percentage of female combatants, and dominated their foreign intelligence wing). There's a reason Femme Fatale is a common term, and not Masc Fatale.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 02:56
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:I know this was only complimentary to his personal reading, but "death dealing, percieved as a masculine profession"...assassins tend to be female more than male in western culture (primarily influenced by the prevalence of anti-russian sentiment during the 80's, which had a large percentage of female combatants, and dominated their foreign intelligence wing). There's a reason Femme Fatale is a common term, and not Masc Fatale. Femme Fatales aren't assassins though, or at least the term is heavily associated with the noir genre where they aren't. I would say assassin is where women end up when you're making a property that involves combat, but it's not exclusively or maybe not even majority women. After all, the most famous "Assassin" property right now only has one game where a woman is leading.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:00
|
|
|
jivjov posted:She's saying "bounty hunter scumball" in huttese. "Murishani Sleemo" lol, thank you. This just further proves my point.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:02
|
|
|
Beeez posted:I don't know, I think it's possible Vader has no loyalty to Palpatine by the time he's told that Padme is dead. He's just such a broken man that he doesn't care about resisting it until he realizes he has a son.  "
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:06
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:In addition to the theme of not knowing who your enemy is there's the connected theme of the enemy hiding in plain sight- like how Palpatine is pulling the strings right under the noses of the Jedi Council and Senate. Zam doesn't really hide in plain sight. She might have, had she changed her shape. In the nightclub, she just kind of slinks through the shadows. Which is also comparable to what Palpatine does, but doesn't require her to be a shape-shifter. Watching those scenes again, it really is easy to believe that Zam being a changeling was an afterthought.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:07
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Zam doesn't really hide in plain sight. She might have, had she changed her shape. In the nightclub, she just kind of slinks through the shadows. Which is also comparable to what Palpatine does, but doesn't require her to be a shape-shifter. She's not skulking through the shadows in the night club, she's intermixed with the other patrons. Is your argument that she shouldn't have been a changeling? That her being a changeling was meaningless? If it's the latter, my argument is that it's explicitly *not* meaningless because: - Her being a changeling ties into the identity thematics - Her being a changeling ties into some interesting gender dynamics - Anakin relaying that she's a changeling is helpful information to have, given that they were chasing her into a crowded area Even putting all of that aside, it still seems like you're approaching this issue from a weird angle, which is, "what if the movie had done something different". It's hard to discuss why a specific choice wasn't made, so why shouldn't we focus on the text at hand; what does that fact that she was a changeling mean to the story, plot and thematics? Otherwise, it's just someone saying something is stupid and other people saying it's not
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:29
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Zam doesn't really hide in plain sight. She might have, had she changed her shape. In the nightclub, she just kind of slinks through the shadows. Which is also comparable to what Palpatine does, but doesn't require her to be a shape-shifter. But Palpatine is sort of a shape shifter? He does a similar face transform to her in RotS, obviously, but his dual identity is signified/maintained entirely by a change in face (white hair, smiling/black hood, permanent frown) and voice. If you didn't know the name Palpatine beforehand, him being the ultimate villain is somewhat a secret to the viewer. You'd probably guess, but you don't find out for sure until Anakin does in RotS (I think).
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:40
|
|
|
Waffles Inc. posted:- Her being a changeling ties into the identity thematics What does it add? What identity themes does just saying "She's a changeling" highlight? She hasn't got much of an identity. What gender themes? That she chooses to identify as female? Her just being female addresses gender themes. And the information proved useless, given that it never led to anything. The far more important dialogue is Obi-Wan's "Be patient...use the Force" line, because that at least foreshadowed how the scene actually played out. I'm not asking why the movie didn't do something different, I'm asking why it bothered doing the pointless thing it did.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:41
|
|
|
You could argue that the mere fact of her being a shapeshifter adds to the flavor and essence of the Star Wars universe. Like, why is Admiral Ackbar a big red fish? He just is, because big red fishes exist in Star Wars, and some of them are admirals. Shapeshifters exist in Star Wars, so one character is a shapeshifter Though if the point is that shapeshifting should be a really unique and useful skillset for an assassin to have and they did nothing with it despite the obvious in-story opportunity they had for using it, then I agree.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 03:51
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:You could argue that the mere fact of her being a shapeshifter adds to the flavor and essence of the Star Wars universe. Like, why is Admiral Ackbar a big red fish? He just is, because big red fishes exist in Star Wars, and some of them are admirals. Shapeshifters exist in Star Wars, so one character is a shapeshifter If they had had an incidental character display shape-changing abilities without it being built up as an important aspect of the scene, maybe. "Oh, just let me change into something more comfortable", bam. Ackbar isn't built up as a squid-man, he just is. We're never made to expect it's going to be important. But the characters specifically say, "Be careful of this assassin. She can change her shape." Then she doesn't, even though it would have made sense and strengthened the movie. It's a tremendous opportunity wasted. A wet fart of some maybe thematic resonance versus a strong reinforcement of same.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:00
|
|
|
turtlecrunch posted:
After Attack of the Clones Anakin is no longer a padawan apprentice, he's a full Jedi Knight, and as such he trains his own padawan apprentice. Obi Wan attains the rank of master. Anakin himself eventually attains the rank of master in Revenge of the Sith, but sit on this council he will not.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:06
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:If they had had an incidental character display shape-changing abilities without it being built up as an important aspect of the scene, maybe. "Oh, just let me change into something more comfortable", bam. Ackbar isn't built up as a squid-man, he just is. We're never made to expect it's going to be important. But the characters specifically say, "Be careful of this assassin. She can change her shape." Then she doesn't, even though it would have made sense and strengthened the movie. Here's how it plays out Obi-Wan Kenobi: Can you see him? Anakin Skywalker: I think he's a she... and I think she's a Changeling. Obi-Wan Kenobi: In that case be extra careful. Go and find her. [He heads towards the bar] Anakin Skywalker: Where are you going, Master? Obi-Wan Kenobi: For a drink. [Death Sticks conversation] [The assassin closes in on Obi-Wan, but just before she can shoot him, he turns around and uses his lightsaber to cut off her arm. Anakin is suddenly at Obi-Wan's side] Anakin Skywalker: Easy... Jedi business. Go back to your drinks. Yes, we as the audience see her skulking amongst the crowd in the form we've seen her in, but Obi-Wan and Anakin don't know she hasn't changed. So they're "extra careful". And still you say it's a tremendous opportunity wasted...for some reason. Let's flash forward to Obi-Wan telling Luke about Mos Eisley "You will never find a more retched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious" That sounds a bit like "Be extra careful" And what happens? They go into a bar, and Obi-Wan (yet again) cuts off someone's arm. Wow, Mos Eisley was way overhyped and a total opportunity wasted!!! 
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:07
|
|
|
What's your point? You're drawing parallels and acting like they prove your point. Ben Kenobi says Mos Eisley is a dangerous place. It is. He doesn't say, "Be careful in Mos Eisley. It's full of shape-shifters" and then there aren't any, meaninglessly frustrating our expectations.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:11
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:He doesn't say, "Be careful in Mos Eisley. It's full of shape-shifters" and then there aren't any, meaninglessly frustrating our expectations. Well, how would you know?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:16
|
|
|
I'm probably forgetting something but why is Zam hired in the first place? Why doesn't Jango kill Padme himself? Why is an assassin hiring an assassin?Phylodox posted:What's your point? You're drawing parallels and acting like they prove your point. He's probably just going to redirect you to oval office the Greats post.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:16
|
|
|
Yaws posted:I'm probably forgetting something but why is Zam hired in the first place? Why doesn't Jango kill Padme himself? Why is an assassin hiring an assassin? who hires an assassin droid, who farms it out to 2 centipedes
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:17
|
|
|
It's like a Rube Goldberg assassination.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:20
|
|
|
Zam being a shapeshifter is linked to the Kamino investigation. The fact that her appearance is false, and when pulled back reveals a much more skeletal, alien face segues into Obi-Wai stumbling into the perfect army just in time for a war (that are secretly brainwashed to kill him). It's not one to one, but it gives the feeling of "There is more going on here than is apparent at first glance". There's also this exchange quote:Obi-wan: Why do I have the feeling you're going to be the death of me? Obi-wan then proceeds to leave Anakin to search for the assassin while he goes to get a drink at the bar. He's the worst loving parent, it's great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:21
|
|
|
Yaws posted:I'm probably forgetting something but why is Zam hired in the first place? Why doesn't Jango kill Padme himself? Why is an assassin hiring an assassin? I'm pretty sure it was all a plan - the bounty hunter was going after a target guarded by Jedi, and the bounty hunter was going to be caught by the them, whether successful or not. Padme probably wasn't even the plan - the plan was to kill the bounty hunter with something that would lead the Jedi to a clone army they'd be forced to use in a war set up by the Sith leader once he'd orchestrated it, and gotten himself a position of power in the Republic through Oh, right, that's why I can't watch the prequels anymore. Like, seriously, the biggest parts of Palpatine's plans depended on Anakin showing up at the right time to save him from the Jedi, and be turned to the dark side through his decision to help him, and having the Jedi follow a bunch of convoluted steps to discover a free army.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:21
|
|
|
Scrree posted:Obi-wan then proceeds to leave Anakin to search for the assassin while he goes to get a drink at the bar. He's the worst loving parent, it's great. Obi-Wan says "Be patient...use the Force" and then "Why don't you ever listen to me?" Anakin then rushes off to search the club while Obi-Wan sits patiently at the bar, lets Zam come to him, and, presumably, uses the Force to strike her before she could kill him. Obi-Wan tells Anakin exactly how the scene is going to play out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:33
|
|
|
Scrree posted:Zam being a shapeshifter is linked to the Kamino investigation. The fact that her appearance is false, and when pulled back reveals a much more skeletal, alien face segues into Obi-Wai stumbling into the perfect army just in time for a war (that are secretly brainwashed to kill him). It's not one to one, but it gives the feeling of "There is more going on here than is apparent at first glance". Obi-wan was acting as bait there, feigning inattentiveness and distraction, yet he's totally aware of his surroundings and is able to... dis-arm the attacker. He takes the more dangerous passive role to lure the assassin out, while Anakin actively searches for her. Like other people have said, this ties into the Kamino/clone army plot, a bit. The assassin sees Obi-wan is distracted and doesn't question why he'd go from chasing her to getting a drink and pays the price. The Jedi find the Clone army and don't question why they exist, and pay the price.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:35
|
|
|
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, because I haven't carefully read every post --because this is a terrible thread-- but TFA doesn't necessarily mirror ANH as much as it mirrors ANH + the first third of ESB, when Luke arrives on Dagobah to start training with Yoda. My first viewing was spoiler-free, so the fact it was a re-telling of ANH went completely unnoticed as it was playing out. After a second viewing, I still don't have a problem with its derivative nature because a) the film succeeded, and b) it doesn't seem they're going to parrot ESB and RTOJ moving forward. To me, anyway. Clearly, the next film will acknowledge/examine the parallel training of Rey and Ren. Even the names are similar. They're powerful but un-honed wielders of the force, and they'll clash in VIII. Duh. But I don't know what will happen beyond that. Unrelated: The biggest success of TFA, compared to the prequels, is that it features interesting characters doing interesting things. I want to know what they're going to do next. Also, I appreciated the score a lot more during the second viewing. It's quite good. Very distinct from the other six, and very good.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:41
|
|
|
The big point of Zam being a shapeshifter is that we get the morphing of the woman's face into that a CG character. In this Blade Runner cityscape, the assailant is an artificial woman - a replicant. She's introduced to us in front of a blinding, neon-pink sign that advertises what appear to be beauty products. A very important note: 'changeling' is not a synonym for 'shapeshifter'. It refers specifically to the myth of a human child (usually a girl) stolen and secretly replaced with an inferior creature - a troll or fairy. "One belief is that trolls thought that it was more respectable to be raised by humans, and that they wanted to give their own children a human upbringing." The entire point is that Zam isn't some T-1000 terrorist killing machine who lurks behind every face and endeavors to steal your identity. She is simply an alien trying to pass as human, to avoid racism. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jan 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:48
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Like, why is Admiral Ackbar a big red fish? He just is, because big red fishes exist in Star Wars, and some of them are admirals. I wonder if becoming an admiral is more difficult than being a general, because the Rebels will literally make anyone who shows the slightest bit of competence a general regardless of whether they can lead people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:50
|
|
|
greatn posted:After Attack of the Clones Anakin is no longer a padawan apprentice, he's a full Jedi Knight, and as such he trains his own padawan apprentice. Obi Wan attains the rank of master. Anakin himself eventually attains the rank of master in Revenge of the Sith, but sit on this council he will not. You've got it backwards, grant him the rank of master they do not.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:52
|
|
|
SMG what do you think of the Holiday Special?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:52
|
|
|
The whole changeling assassin is dumb because the entire sequence only introduces the dart Obi uses to track down the secret clone army. Someone shooting that same dart at a padme double (quadruple?), instead of murder-worms, would serve the same effect in the story. The changeling just adds links in a chain of coincidence that gets the clone army into jedi hands. And coincidence is dumb, always.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:55
|
|
|
DARPA posted:And coincidence is dumb, always. Why?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:56
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:I know this was only complimentary to his personal reading, but "death dealing, percieved as a masculine profession"...assassins tend to be female more than male in western culture (primarily influenced by the prevalence of anti-russian sentiment during the 80's, which had a large percentage of female combatants, and dominated their foreign intelligence wing). There's a reason Femme Fatale is a common term, and not Masc Fatale. Assassins are unfeeling, ruthless killers who use violence as a means to attain political or personal power. James Bond is probably the most well-known assassin in popular fiction, and unsurprisingly, he is the utmost embodiment of the Western masculine ideal. Femme fatales, on the other hand, ensnare using their feminine wiles. The term has come to be associated with characters like Black Widow from The Avengers who have been influenced by James Bond-like characters, but that's more of a drift away from the original meaning. Zam starts off as your standard modern assassin character who creates spectacular explosions, uses high-tech gadgets, and gets into high-speed car chases, and so the Jedi assume she's a man. They only realize she's a woman after she darts into the nightclub and takes on a more traditional role as a femme fatale. Furthermore, the whole reason the femme fatale is such a powerful archetype is because their behavior is seen as such an aberration. Women are supposed to be loving and nurturing, but femme fatales take advantage of such assumptions to instead cause harm to the men who feel safe with them. There's no such thing as a "masc fatale" because absolutely no one finds anything shocking or surprising about the notion of being mortally endangered by masculine behavior.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 04:52 |
|
|
If you're on a bridge in Star Wars, poo poo's gonna go down.   Oh god, I find parallels. Sheeeeeev tells Anakin who he is. Vader tells Luke who he is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2016 04:56
|
|
